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Questions and comments about forum behavior

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Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby jimhabegger » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:40 pm

This is where I'll be responding to questions and comments about what I'm doing in the forums, so we won't be dragging other discussions off topic.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby Hazgarn » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:47 pm

I'm going to put this as honestly and as politely as I can:

You are making people uncomfortable. You've come to a community centered around a game that you are not playing, asking a ton of questions, answering questions put toward you with questions, and generally being kind of creepy. If you are here with an interest in playing the game, you are welcome. We've been trying more than anything to make you feel welcome, but you've been circling the idea in an evasive way that is starting to stand out.

If you're here for some reason other than playing this game, I think it would be appropriate to either fess up or go, because otherwise you're only likely to receive increased hostility.

We do not want to be a part of some sociological/marketing/whatever experiment, or studied, or made use of without our knowledge. It's uncool, and in this day and age of data sharing, it is not at all an unrealistic thing to feel nervous about. And telling us to go to PM about it only makes it seem like you have more to hide.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby Hawkwind » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:48 pm

We indulged in your posts for a while now, there is a point where this needs to stop and we've passed it.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby jimhabegger » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:06 pm

Is either of you speaking as a forum moderator or administrator?
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby toofast » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:10 pm

When did we start disliking jimhabegger? He looks like a nice guy!

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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby jimhabegger » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:03 pm

Hazgarn, thank you for that frank and clear statement of your concerns. I might feel the same way if I saw someone doing what I've been doing. In fact, I *did* feel the same way once, about what I saw someone else doing in a forum.

To answer the questions that you raised:
1. I'm here with interest in playing the game.
2. I've always felt very welcome here, and still do.
3. The only reason I know of, that I came here in the first place, was because I thought I might like playing the game. However, I have goals for my life, and values and principles, that I practice wherever I go, that come ahead of my immediate interests in whatever I'm doing. It looks to me like some of the alarm that arises from what I do is because it runs counter to popular culture.
4. The reason I was inviting people to PM me about their personal issues with me, was because besides dragging discussions off topic, I don't agree with doing that in public. Now that I know that looks sinister to some people, I'm agreeing to discuss people's personal issues with me in this thread.
5. I can't say that I'm not experimenting, because I'm always experimenting, in everything I do in life, searching for better ways to do whatever I'm trying to do. I'm not doing it as part of any academic sociological/marketing/whatever research.
6. Everything I've posted about game issues has been my response, from my heart, searching for possible solutions to what I've seen other people complaining and debating about, or otherwise part of what feel I need to do, to play the game in accordance with my values and principles.
7. I've learned from years of experience, again and again, that it's worse than useless to try to respond to some kinds of personal comments and questions about me and what I'm doing.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby Hazgarn » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:30 pm

If your concerns are on the basis of specific personal beliefs or principles, and you would like to address questions toward that end, I could understand. In this case, the best way, I feel, to find the answers you're looking for would be to address those specific concerns, and address them directly.

If you have concerns about certain activities you might engage in in-game, and how they might be received or supported, then the only place you're likely to find a solid answer is by contacting one of the admins and addressing the question to them directly.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby Hazgarn » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:32 pm

Accidentally quoted my own post instead of edity and now cannot delete...
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby Rivean » Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:54 am

Hazgarn wrote:If your concerns are on the basis of specific personal beliefs or principles, and you would like to address questions toward that end, I could understand. In this case, the best way, I feel, to find the answers you're looking for would be to address those specific concerns, and address them directly.

If you have concerns about certain activities you might engage in in-game, and how they might be received or supported, then the only place you're likely to find a solid answer is by contacting one of the admins and addressing the question to them directly.


What he's trying to do, in his own fashion, is attempting to find collaborative means of making people happier with their experiences in the game. While his methodology may seem strange and unorthodox to some of us, his heart's in the right place, and I am slightly embarrassed at the level of hostility he's been receiving of late.

To Jim, I have a couple of things to say:

a) The number one reason why your attempts to draw collaborative solutions here have by and large, failed, is because (other than that's just not the way the cat swings around here) you seem to approach the problems you're attempting to address from a place of ignorance. All of your information is second hand, and therefore imperfect, lending your assessments, and the very questions you put forward to be as imperfect and off. The best way for you to help this game and its community is to play it.

b) This point is in part addressed to everybody who's unfamiliar with the RPI community and the forums in particular - do not be alarmed by the seemingly ceaseless difference of opinion you'll find on the forums. We are a quarrelsome bunch by nature. That we are at any given point in time arguing ourselves into the ground about 20 different things is not a sign of serious problems, but is a sign of a healthy, vibrant community that is deeply interested in the well-being and improvement of the one central point at which we unite: the game. Be alarmed when the arguments stop, THAT is a sign that something is seriously wrong. It's a sign that not enough people care.

c) A lot of your threads begin with 'If'. People do not respond well to hypothetical problems, particularly people in the business of playing and (as above) attempting to improve/build on this game. You are much more likely to receive a positive response and facilitate discussion if you bring up a specific problem that, firstly, exists and is not hypothetical, and secondly, pertains to you, something you experienced yourself, or something you witnessed.

My advice to you remains the same as before (and I'll note you did not respond to me the last time I mentioned this): Play the game. Collect your thoughts. Talk about your experience and how it would be improved.

For my part, and on the part of the staff (whom I do not represent but long exposure to the persons behind the avatars allows me to say this with confidence), you and anyone else who is interested in playing this game will always be welcome here.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby jimhabegger » Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:08 am

Rivean wrote:What he's trying to do, in his own fashion, is attempting to find collaborative means of making people happier with their experiences in the game.

Exactly!

Rivean wrote:That we are at any given point in time arguing ourselves into the ground about 20 different things is not a sign of serious problems, but is a sign of a healthy, vibrant community that is deeply interested in the well-being and improvement of the one central point at which we unite: the game.

I understand that very well, and I agree wholeheartedly. It all looks very healthy to me.

Part of the miscommunication here might be that a lot of what I say and do, doesn't mean what it most commonly means when other people say and do those things.

Rivean wrote:A lot of your threads begin with 'If'. People do not respond well to hypothetical problems, particularly people in the business of playing and (as above) attempting to improve/build on this game. You are much more likely to receive a positive response and facilitate discussion if you bring up a specific problem that, firstly, exists and is not hypothetical, and secondly, pertains to you, something you experienced yourself, or something you witnessed.

The threads I've started were not intended for everyone. They were intended for anyone who might be interested in discussing what I want to discuss. I try to give an indication in the title, of who might be interested. For example, the thread "If you'd like to help improve the game for every player" was intended for people who are looking for ideas about how to help improve the game for every player, or who have ideas of their own that they would like to share. I wasn't sure that would interest anyone else here but me, but I wasn't sure it wouldn't. The best way I know to find out, is to start a thread about it, post my ideas, and invite others to post theirs.

Have I ever complained about any lack of response to any of the discussions I've proposed? If I did, I apologize.

As far as I know, I haven't brought up any problem that I don't think exists. In fact as far as I know I haven't discussed any problem in the game that I haven't already seen other people discussing. As far as I know, I haven't discussed any problem that doesn't pertain to me. In any case, I don't see the value of limiting myself that way, and presuming that everyone else does too.

I draw on my own experience and what I've witnessed whenever I can, but I don't see any value in limiting myself and everyone else to that, either. It seems to me that would needlessly limit the possible fruits of our discussions.
Rivean wrote:My advice to you remains the same as before (and I'll note you did not respond to me the last time I mentioned this): Play the game.

I did respond, with the only relevant response I can see: to explain why I haven't started playing yet. In case you didn't see it, I'll re-post it here:
jimhabegger wrote:To respond to any possible friendly curiosity about why I haven't started playing yet, it's because I've been working on my character, and learning how to use the commands. I've never played any MUD at all before, and until a few days ago I knew nothing whatsoever about MUD commands.

As an example of how far I've had to come, to start playing, the first time I went to the Guest Lounge, I didn't know how to talk, to emote, to move, or to take any action, at all. I didn't know how to do *anything* but read the room description that popped up in my face. I didn't even know how to exit from the game. I was lucky enough to get it on the second try, after "exit" failed.

Most of my delay in starting to play though, has been waiting for responses from other players who offered to help me with my character background. Meanwhile, I've been reading and posting in the forum, to get to know the other players, to enjoy the fellowship, and to post my thoughts and feelings about topics I see being discussed, that interest me.

http://www.middle-earth.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=945&start=50#p13145

Since I posted that, there have been some new delays. For example, I had planned to start playing last night, until I saw the posts questioning my character and motives. I debated for some time about whether to respond to that or not, and finally decided to respond. I'm glad I did, because if my behavior in the forums arouses suspicions like that, the way I play my character might do so too, and I'd rather not start playing without trying to clear that up.

It would be contrary to my values and principles to play the game without doing what I've been doing in the forums, even if it delays my entry into the game. Badgering me about it, and about what I'm doing in the forums, will only add to the delay. The only way I can think of now, that anyone could help me start sooner, would be to try to understand what my priorities are, without taking up my time doing it, and help me find ways to provide for them more quickly.

Rivean wrote:For my part, and on the part of the staff (whom I do not represent but long exposure to the persons behind the avatars allows me to say this with confidence), you and anyone else who is interested in playing this game will always be welcome here.


As I've said before, more than once, I've always felt welcome here, and you're one of those who have made me feel welcome the most.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby Brian » Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:22 am

The only way I can think of now, that anyone could help me start sooner, would be to try to understand what my priorities are, without taking up my time doing it, and help me find ways to provide for them more quickly.


Could you post in a concise, statement like format what your priorities are? I am not actually able to detect them through the question type posts that you've made so far. If you give a very pointed list of what your concerns are, and why you have them, it would be much easier to get to the heart of the matter I think. Something like this.

1) I'm afraid that a concept for a character that is XYZ would be met with hostility because of this reason.
2) I'm concerned that if I don't know the commands I will be shunned.

And so on.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby Icarus » Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:25 am

Just give it a bleedin' swing. The water's fine, the RP good, and you could actually see stuff working IG and how we operate.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby jimhabegger » Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:34 am

Brian, thank you. I like very much the way you framed your question.

That might take up a lot of my time, and it might not be worth your time, either. I wasn't asking anyone to try to learn about my priorities. I was just saying that I can't think of any other way anyone might be able to help me play sooner.

You might have noticed that I stopped posting a few days ago about game issues, and that everything I've posted in the last two or three days has been in response to people's personal issues with me. I'm planning to play tonight, if no new issues like that come up.

I'll be leaving the next day for a six-week visit to the US, and I see very little possibility for me to play while I'm there.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby bjg2k1us » Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:42 am

Brian, I believe Jim already explained his priorities in his second post:


improving myself to help improve the world; learning to be the best person I can be and do all the good I can do; learning to work with my neighbors to help improve the community life for every person in the neighborhood... learning to help improve the lives of the most ravaged people near and far; Internet discussions... practicing and promoting better conduct on the Internet; fellowship across religious and other ideological divides...walking and working with the most stigmatized and marginalized people I see around me.

My life revolves around what I sometimes call learning to walk in the path of God, and I'm always hoping and dreaming of finding others who are trying to do that, so we can learn together.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby jimhabegger » Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:49 am

@bjg2k1us. Kudos!

I had forgotten all about that. I was imagining that people would have to search on the Web, to learn about my priorities without taking up my time.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby Brian » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:16 am

For me those are too vague for me to work with in this format. Certainly worthy goals, but I find as is often the case with high minded ideas it's difficult to get a grasp on what to actually do, especially in this case as it pertains to Shadows of Isildur.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby EltanimRas » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:29 am

Sad as it is for all of us, hours spent mudding are probably some of the least efficient at improving the world and making us the 'best people we can be'.

As Riv would say, 'Le sigh'.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby Rivean » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:37 am

Le sigh.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby Brian » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:06 am

EltanimRas wrote:Sad as it is for all of us, hours spent mudding are probably some of the least efficient at improving the world and making us the 'best people we can be'.

As Riv would say, 'Le sigh'.


Truth.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby Hazgarn » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:51 am

jimhabegger wrote:Is either of you speaking as a forum moderator or administrator?


Icarus wrote:Just give it a bleedin' swing. The water's fine, the RP good, and you could actually see stuff working IG and how we operate.


^ He is.

Just give it a go. Once you've played for a while, nearly anything you say will be much better received by posters, I promise you.

I mean, honestly, some of us are real goobers, but we allow eachother their say because at the end of the day what ties us all together is the game.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby toofast » Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:53 pm

EltanimRas wrote:Sad as it is for all of us, hours spent mudding are probably some of the least efficient at improving the world and making us the 'best people we can be'.

As Riv would say, 'Le sigh'.


Sad as it is for all of us, we're all 1 in 7 billion and don't matter in the world or to the universe as a whole and we're all going to die in a few decades.

#TRUETALK #EXISTENTIALISM #NIHILISM #VOTEJIM
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby EltanimRas » Sun Jun 29, 2014 1:39 pm

toofastnig wrote:#TRUETALK #EXISTENTIALISM #NIHILISM #VOTEJIM

You forgot #SELFFULFILLINGPROPHECY. ;)
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby jimhabegger » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:20 pm

Icarus, were you speaking as a moderator or administrator? If so, it isn't clear to me what your instructions are. I've said repeatedly that I intend to play. Are you telling me to stop posting, until after I start playing?

(edited to correct a typo)
Last edited by jimhabegger on Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby toofast » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:24 pm

jimhabegger wrote:Icarus, were you speaking as a moderator or administrator? If so, it isn't clear to me what you're instructions are. I've said repeatedly that I intend to play. Are you telling me to stop posting, until after I start playing?


I think he was just saying from one individual to another, stop fretting and just give it a try. You'll have more insight regarding most of the topics on the forums.
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Re: Questions and comments about forum behavior

Postby jimhabegger » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:51 pm

toofastnig, your friendly responses to me have been very refreshing!

ETA:
The continuation of the badgering, even after I said that it would add to my delay in starting to play, and after I said that I was planning to play tonight, has turned my attention to another issue that needs to be resolved, between me and others in the game community, before I start playing. If I'm not allowed to post any more until after I start playing, then I won't be able to play at all.

I don't respond well to intimidation. I'm not talking about Icarus's post. I don't have any problem with that. If he's posting as moderator or administrator, I'll be happy to comply with his decision, as soon as I understand what it is.

I'm talking about Hazgarn's post, trying to use Icarus's post to intimidate me. That creates a dilemma for me. My impulse is not to play now, until the badgering stops, but that might mean it will have to wait until after my trip to the US. On the other hand, I want to comply with whatever Icarus is telling me to do, if he is posting as moderator or administrator. If he's telling me not to post any more until after I start playing, it looks to me at this point like I will not be able to play at all, unless I can resolve this somehow with the administrators.

(later)
Okay, I might have found a solution to my dilemma. I'm really pressed for time, because this is the last day before we leave for the US, so I'm not sure I'll be able to play tonight, but I will if I can. Then I'll have six weeks to consider what to do about the intimidation issue. All this has thoroughly convinced me *not* to play, unless and until I resolve some more issues with other players.

Rivean, now I have what you were suggesting: a specific problem that, firstly, exists and is not hypothetical, and secondly, pertains to me, something I've experienced myself, namely feeling badgered by a few other players.
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