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Losing interest

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Re: Losing interest

Postby Patty » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:21 am

Also, for any who have problems with orcs being near Utterby. Over the past 2 rl days, I've found multiple human tracks and elf tracks in the room -with- our gate. These visits seem to be common on both sides.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Gobbo » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:23 am

I learned that the ambush bonus for attacking from hiding is massive. Its hard to pass up the massive chance to instantly kill someone to reveal yourself and rp with prey. Ambushing could be nerfed to half and still be pretty ultra powerful.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby tehkory » Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:02 am

[/color]
Patty wrote:Also, for any who have problems with orcs being near Utterby. Over the past 2 rl days, I've found multiple human tracks and elf tracks in the room -with- our gate. These visits seem to be common on both sides.


Alas, I'm not a leader, so I can't do too much about this, but it's true. I usually petition up to Staff everytime we're there, though, especially when we do stupid things like go visible/etc.

You're definitely right that it's shitty behavior on both sides. There's too much 'let's go to the Mountains/Utterby to kill these guys' on either side, and too little 'let's go to bog to get iron and maybe fight over it.

Leadership can't be blamed too much, either(though they can a little).

In defense of running across ten or twenty wilderness rooms blind, following wargs with infravision:

Is every single goblin/orc mounted? Otherwise, yeah, it's pretty bullshit, and hopefully every person involved gets their RPP set down to 0 for the next six months. And maybe publicly name-and-shamed.*

*Reason number #2839 Kory would be a bad Admin.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Brian » Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:10 am

Really, this comes down to things that have been said again and again.

Gobbo, you say that when you first encountered an orc you tried to RP with it and it twink ran from you and then reinforcements came down on you? That sucks, but I'm glad that you didn't do the same thing when the reinforcements got you. That's the only way that things will ever change so kudos to you and I hope that you'll be rewarded somehow in the future! The true test of good interaction with the environment and adversaries isn't to be great when you clearly have the advantage, it's to be just as great when doing so puts you at a distinct disadvantage. If you had done the same thing when the orc reinforcements came on you no doubt there'd be a posting in the "How's PVP" thread about how a group of human's twink ran away the moment they were come upon. I hope that your solid RP will be rewarded and can serve as an example to the character that you interacted with earlier.

That said I'd say there's about a 90% chance that it won't. That was also pretty much the conclusion drawn in a thread awhile back; the vast majority of players will use the utmost boundaries of the code to ensure their character's survival. The question then is simply if you want to be that character as well or if you want to be more than that. It's a tough choice to make because trying to put RP first in all situations is immeasurably more likely to get your character killed.

I read that some people keep lists; they give a character they encounter one chance to RP well with them and if they abuse that chance they adopt a shoot first ask questions later approach. It's one way to do it, or if you really care about the RP more than victory or accomplishing PvP heroics, maybe you'll give them more than one chance. I hope the later, because those are the kind of players I personally want to interact with :)

Also agree with Kory vis a vis following a character with infravision in the dark. Totally BS. The night in Mirkwood would be -pitch- black given the canopy cover. You'd essentially be blind. If you weren't moving with feeling each footstep before you committed your weight and with one hand in front of you to feel out the trees you'd probably smash your face and break your ankle. Just because someone with vision is leading someone who is blind that blind person isn't suddenly able to move at full speed.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Doublepalli » Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:17 pm

tehkory wrote:[/color]
Patty wrote:Also, for any who have problems with orcs being near Utterby. Over the past 2 rl days, I've found multiple human tracks and elf tracks in the room -with- our gate. These visits seem to be common on both sides.


Alas, I'm not a leader, so I can't do too much about this, but it's true. I usually petition up to Staff everytime we're there, though, especially when we do stupid things like go visible/etc.

You're definitely right that it's shitty behavior on both sides. There's too much 'let's go to the Mountains/Utterby to kill these guys' on either side, and too little 'let's go to bog to get iron and maybe fight over it.

Leadership can't be blamed too much, either(though they can a little).

In defense of running across ten or twenty wilderness rooms blind, following wargs with infravision:

Is every single goblin/orc mounted? Otherwise, yeah, it's pretty bullshit, and hopefully every person involved gets their RPP set down to 0 for the next six months. And maybe publicly name-and-shamed.*

*Reason number #2839 Kory would be a bad Admin.



Again, with players making assumptions. Did it ever occur to you that the orc leader may have been leading and the group was being guided/told where to go? I think they can follow a warg who's right next to them with glowing eyes, telling them where to walk, or trip. This is utter bullcrap. I counted. 7 or so coded rooms, in our most well known area that a group of humans decided to ambush the orcs at night time. (I'm sorry if he auto-flees without Rp) but you guys have no clue what was going on orc side , only that you got found by a warg at night (go figure), and we did our damn best to give your leader an awesome death. I noticed an orc searching without any real if info. I didn't like that, I wanted to role play it out. Regardless, the time it took me to track and guide the orcs was plenty of time to LEAVE, because they would be getting reinforcements. All of this crap is self-brought, and I'm not appreciating false assumptions. If anyone is going to post about problems - do it accurately.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Jarlhen » Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:50 pm

I encourage the orcs to keep doing what they're doing. They're orcs. If the merchant guard can't take care of things then too bad. This may sound harsh but if you can't get 1 single combat clan on the human side to operate then you may have chosen the wrong setting (when I say you I mean us collectively). However, I think it's fair to say that the merchant guard can work just fine if it gets the right leadership. Furthermore, if there is no consistent, sporadic, PvP there would be no point in having combat characters.

If someone goes out on their own and they get in trouble it's almost always their own fault (almost always). This has always been a feature of SoI. Even in Pelennor there were wolves that killed plenty of lonesome individuals. And Pelennor was the cuddliest place in all of SoI history.

3 rooms from the gates of Utterby and you are in Mirkwood. You are in the actual forest. It'd be absurd to suggest that the orcs shouldn't get that close. If I'm not mistaken there used to be NPC guards back in old SoI that would shoot any enemies that got too close. Is that no longer an option? I'd much prefer that over a bunch of no-hide rooms.

ETA: My current character spends a lot of time out in the wilderness on their own. If I get in trouble I would normally code gtfo asap. But if it happens this time with Orcses I will hang about and see where the RP takes us, assuming there is some.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby tehkory » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:27 pm

If anyone is going to post about problems - do it accurately.

Fair enough.

Doublepalli wrote:Again, with players making assumptions. Did it ever occur to you that the orc leader may have been leading and the group was being guided/told where to go? I think they can follow a warg who's right next to them with glowing eyes, telling them where to walk, or trip. This is utter bullcrap. I counted. 7 or so coded rooms, in our most well known area that a group of humans decided to ambush the orcs at night time. (I'm sorry if he auto-flees without Rp) but you guys have no clue what was going on orc side , only that you got found by a warg at night (go figure), and we did our damn best to give your leader an awesome death. I noticed an orc searching without any real if info. I didn't like that, I wanted to role play it out. Regardless, the time it took me to track and guide the orcs was plenty of time to LEAVE, because they would be getting reinforcements. All of this crap is self-brought, and I'm not appreciating false assumptions.

Now that I've got it accurately:

It's twinkish as Hell that anyone was doing this, and everyone involved deserves to have their roleplay points turned to 0 for six months. Thanks for giving me the information to form this opinion more fully. Shame on every single one of you.

That was awful, piss-poor roleplay you just described. Your PCs should have broken ankles if they weren't riding the wargs, and moving at anything other than a crawl--as in the speed it would take you to codedly CRAWL from room to room--was terrible of you.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Songweaver » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:31 pm

We're all taking this too personally, instead of seeing (even botched) attempts at meaningful PVP as an opportunity. Let what happened fuel Utterby's roleplay, and inspire new tactics and dedication.

The truth is simply this: it is not realistic to assume anything other than that, at this point, with the number of casualties that's resulted on both sides from skirmishes, war is inevitable. THAT's the story of ALPHA. It's the only story that makes sense.

All PVP up until this point, with the exception of one failed joint Guard-and-Hillmen attack on Vadok Mal (very early on), and one failed orc siege on the Hillmen's barge-fortress (also fairly early on), has been nothing more than skirmishes.

I'm not telling anyone how to roleplay their characters, but to me, the "cold war" has to end at some point and turn into a true conflict. And the momentum from that conflict can carry SOI3 all the way to Laketown.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Brian » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:36 pm

Doublepalli wrote:Did it ever occur to you that the orc leader may have been leading and the group was being guided/told where to go? I think they can follow a warg who's right next to them with glowing eyes, telling them where to walk, or trip. This is utter bullcrap.


Oh my, but I beg to differ. Try going to a wooded area that features no paths with someone. Close your eyes, don't cheat, and have them guide you through the woods. Perhaps they'll be able to guide you so that you don't eat it or break your ankle, but there's no way you're moving with any amount of speed at all. Remember, Mirkwood is a wild, old growth forest. The room descriptions make explicit reference to how tangled and hard to traverse it is. Even if this warg was telling each member of the group -exactly- where to step that would be slow as molasses.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby radioactivejesus » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:40 pm

Gobbo wrote:I learned that the ambush bonus for attacking from hiding is massive. Its hard to pass up the massive chance to instantly kill someone to reveal yourself and rp with prey.

we passed it up anyways, and I think the chance for some roleplay leading up to the combat was more rewarding than having everyone ambush and aim for a TPK. A human even made the first attack, and I felt like the scene was handled very well by all sides. Sorry to hear about the first character running off the second he saw you, that's been a huge issue for basically everyone on all sides, and having people flee when you're typing out an emote is one of my pet peeves.

I feel all the comments about the orcs travelling through the night being twinkish are kind of unfair for several reasons.
First off, night-time isn't the 100% darkness that the game code represents, I've frequently been outside in the forest at night, and even though it's very dark, you are usually still able to see a few feet ahead of you and navigate without too much trouble. Orcs are creatures well adapted to living underground, and in caves. Their eyes are sharper than a regular humans. Because the area was near a mountain, the terrain would be very rocky. This naturally means less soil, and sparser trees, which means more moonlight is able to get through and brighten the area.
Main reason we didn't light a torch, was because I didn't want everyone getting shot down by arrows.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Doublepalli » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:44 pm

tehkory wrote:
If anyone is going to post about problems - do it accurately.

Fair enough.

Doublepalli wrote:Again, with players making assumptions. Did it ever occur to you that the orc leader may have been leading and the group was being guided/told where to go? I think they can follow a warg who's right next to them with glowing eyes, telling them where to walk, or trip. This is utter bullcrap. I counted. 7 or so coded rooms, in our most well known area that a group of humans decided to ambush the orcs at night time. (I'm sorry if he auto-flees without Rp) but you guys have no clue what was going on orc side , only that you got found by a warg at night (go figure), and we did our damn best to give your leader an awesome death. I noticed an orc searching without any real if info. I didn't like that, I wanted to role play it out. Regardless, the time it took me to track and guide the orcs was plenty of time to LEAVE, because they would be getting reinforcements. All of this crap is self-brought, and I'm not appreciating false assumptions.

Now that I've got it accurately:

It's twinkish as Hell that anyone was doing this, and everyone involved deserves to have their roleplay points turned to 0 for six months. Thanks for giving me the information to form this opinion more fully. Shame on every single one of you.

That was awful, piss-poor roleplay you just described. Your PCs should have broken ankles if they weren't riding the wargs, and moving at anything other than a crawl--as in the speed it would take you to codedly CRAWL from room to room--was terrible of you.


Ah, okay, so by your standards, I should order the group of orcs to follow me, and just lead them through darkness without a word, or any tracking involved as not being twinkish? By your standards, you're saying that in a PITCH BLACK forest, a group of orcs would be unable to see a pair of GLOWING golden eyes right next to them, telling them where to walk and where not to, by using their dulled vision and their hearing? And that's twinkish? I don't control the orc players. It is up to them how they choose to roleplay traversing through the mirkwood. And the group of humans? From what I can tell when we found them, they weren't retreating, they had just moved and were waiting to ambush, (correct me if i'm wrong there) and they have every chance to retreat while we were rallying/stalking and uh, last I checked sneaking cautiously isn't the fastest thing in the world, now is it? Also. Are you taking into account moonlight? Also, I have followed human tracks from my gate, through orc lands, over the bridge, further into the bogs, all the way over to human lands, and been -right- on their trail before, during the day time, moving at full speed, alone, and been unable to catch up with them, so if they were really trying to escape, they would have, because time /was/ being taken in traversing the mirk, finding you.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Siradril » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:45 pm

Sadly I don't think this matters much. Considering that the human side was fleeing at a similar pace without a torch.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby radioactivejesus » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:46 pm

Siradril wrote:Sadly I don't think this matters much. Considering that the human side was fleeing at a similar pace without a torch.

yea, that is also true. I don't hold it against anyone
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Gobbo » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:47 pm

Honestly I dont care that the orcs could follow with the assistance of a warg with night vision. What bothers me is the imbalance night vision presents in this situation..We had an elf. I'm not sure but I think old soi elves could see in the dark. It would level the playing field at least from a pvp balance perspective.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby WorkerDrone » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:59 pm

People in this thread as described by WorkerDrone:

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Have I ever told any of you the definition of insanity?

It's doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby tehkory » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:04 pm

Hell, I wasn't involved. I'm just saying it's twinkish. You should see the glowing eyes. But when you're self-admittedly on rocky ground, traipsing through foothills in the black of night, unless the warg's nannying your every footstep, sooner or later you're gonna break your ankles.

I'm not objecting to the fact that you emoted or tracked. I'm just objecting that it wasn't enough to equal excusing/rationalizing what you did.

Honestly, the whole thing's pretty embarassing from both sides, and a clear example of everyone involved 'using every coded advantage possible,' to sortof-probably-quote Brian.

But if this is an example of what the best of warg players are capable of, they probably need shut down right now. But if you're happy admitting that you led a few blind players through the woods without any failures at all, then so be it. That's what you consider good roleplay, and hopefully somebody agrees with you. But you certainly, in my eyes, abused your role/race last night, to a pretty poor extent. If wargs are going to be permanently implemented, I pray nobody follows your example.

Like I said, I wasn't on for anything but the aftermath last night. I'm not personally involved. I just know that wargs are--and should be--up in the air for whether any should be in-game at all, and if the players given them can't be trusted to properly use the tools that they've been given, they need those tools taken away immediately.

Workerdrone'd have a point, but I'm not speaking to him, nor you, not truly: I'm just hoping Nimrod, Icarus, and the rest consider this when they think about wargs in the future.
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All around the twisted trees climb higher and higher, forbidding light of any kind to find its way to the undergrowth.
Above, little light is ever cast upon the floor, but when it finds its way through tiny gaps it illuminates the green moss on the tree trunks with a dull gray.
Above, the forest canopy rejects nearly all light from the sky.
In all directions save for the south the dense woodland seems to close in, restricting all but the most persistent light.
Somehow this dark oak forest thins significantly, letting up on its constant grip of the immediate surroundings and even allowing a small amount of light from the sky to fall on the multi-colored forest floor.


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Re: Losing interest

Postby radioactivejesus » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:04 pm

WorkerDrone wrote:People in this thread as described by WorkerDrone:


Have I ever told any of you the definition of insanity?

It's doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result.

but SOI is serious business, senpai
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Doublepalli » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:09 pm

Gobbo wrote:Honestly I dont care that the orcs could follow with the assistance of a warg with night vision. What bothers me is the imbalance night vision presents in this situation..We had an elf. I'm not sure but I think old soi elves could see in the dark. It would level the playing field at least from a pvp balance perspective.




Wargs having night vision is something that was made very clear in the player staff meeting that took place shortly before being put IG, you may not have known that, but i'm sure the human leader, or the elf did.
How would them gaining night vision balance pvp? You guys have dwarves and their armor/weapons, elves with their armor/weapons, and I don't even know if they have stat boosts. Let me break it down for you - wargs having night vision is the only thing they have going for them. They have the exact same armor that npc wargs have I believe, and I've seen what good weapons do to them. They can't pick up weapons, and they can't wear armor (that I know of) and they /arent/ even fully code implemented. It's basically an orc holding a sharp iron weapon with night vision, (and no, not a HONED one, or a STEEL weapon like humans seem to have gained their hands on)

So, if elves then gained night vision what would the wargs have going for them?
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Justanothacivy » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:11 pm

Or... maybe don't hunt friggin' orcs at friggin' night then complain where there is a coded conflict?

I'm past listening to the he said she said here. If we are not going to accept that BOTH SIDES have acted at times without proper roleplay and this blame is to be set squarely upon individual players shoulders not entire spheres then why are the floating heads still gibbering back and forth when it's just useless noise?

The Merchant Guard shouldn't be deep into the Orc's territory in the first place. They shouldn't be there at all. They aren't trained to assault, they are trained to defend Utterby.

Last time I'm saying it.

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Re: Losing interest

Postby Onasaki » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:53 pm

Considering I've been on several camping trips in my time, as a reinactor, I can say, with utmost certainty. That, you can't see jack shit at night if you don't have a light.

If the moon is shining you have limited light. If it's not, you have no light.

Considering the forest is at the base of a mountain, and specifically states it thins out as you get closer, and denser as you get further? It's probably safe to say, that, if someone can see in the dark, and is capable of leading someone, with torches, through the dark.

It's completely plausible.

Complaining about it, calling out that someone needs to be removed, because they're using their RACE GIVEN abilities to aid in the destruction of an enemy that is attacking the people you're loyal too, is absolute horse shit.

Welcome to a Perma-Death RPI. You will die. You will get hurt. You will get your ass handed to you by people who are better prepared, know the land, and don't care about your squishy human innards.

Because, really, what do you expect people to do? Sit there, and let you kill them? NOT fight back? NOT use EVERY advantage they have, via armor, weapons, abilities, and whatnot, to fight back?

If that's what you expect, then perhaps you should find a nice little non-PK MUD where everyone is a happy dancing little critter of happy joy and rainbows, because, if you're in a dangerous area, just as the guy above me said.

DANGEROUS THINGS WILL HAPPEN


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Re: Losing interest

Postby Hawkwind » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:58 pm

In a military boot, following somebody that can see ahead, you can cross almost any terrain, its slow, but it can be done. Rabbit holes, roots and all. Ive done it.

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Re: Losing interest

Postby Brian » Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:01 pm

WorkerDrone is the funniest. He always makes me laugh, so thanks for that WorkerDrone!

Also Kory that's pretty priceless. I think it stands as fairly sufficient evidence that Mirkwood is hard to see in in the daylight, let alone at night!

I think what people are hoping for in these threads, and rarely if ever getting, is that players might consider actions and perhaps say "well, it did happen, and maybe I could have done it better, and I will consider changing my behaviour in the future." What happens happen and the game and the players can only move forward. I think that people care about the game though and want to see it move forward, and hope that suggestions of what is good behaviour/etiquette might be listened to and considered.

However, most people seem most inclined to vehemently defend their positions without giving any weight to what the other side has to say, and that's really unfortunate.

What I really wish for is a spirit of solidarity and the sense that we all want SoI to be extremely high quality and well roleplayed but I rarely get the idea that we all want the game to be the most engaging, well roleplayed it can be.

For instance, given the descriptions that Kory has posted, is it really a travesty to consider and say "You know, maybe it doesn't make a lot of sense to travel at speed through the dark." It's ok to admit that, upon further consideration, maybe you didn't make the best choice. Hell, I'd say that actually takes self awareness and intelligence! Looking at these scenarios and trying to grow out of them, on both sides, is the only way the game will get better. Mostly what I see those is people wanting to say "everything my team does is amazing, and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot."
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Patty » Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:29 pm

Well said.

The line is so thin...I don't even know where it is at. We ambushed a human female recently. A warg bite her leg very hard. She sprinted west, then immediately sprinted east, then back to the gate. Should a person be able to spring after a huge warg clamped their leg? I don't think so. Am I mad at them for not realizing that immediately in the adrenaline soaked heat of battle. Not really. The orcs found out humans were camped outside, so they followed the warg that can see in the dark. Should it be too dark for them to do that with ease?...probably so.

We use the code when it helps us. That is what players have always done. A few people will go the other way, but they die a lot.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Brian » Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:33 pm

Onasaki wrote:if you're in a dangerous area, just as the guy above me said.

DANGEROUS THINGS WILL HAPPEN


It doesn't sound like anybody has disputed that point or was not ok with it, it sounds like people are trying to encourage behaviour that interacts with the world in a realistic way. As you said yourself if you don't have a light at night you can't see jack shit. It sounds like a bunch of people were following a warg through the night without torches. Some people (like me) think that you'd move at a snail's pace at best like this. Other people think that it's 100% legit and there's no problem with it. But I don't think anybody is saying not to expect dangerous things to happen in dangerous territory. I imagine that's why the group was there, because they were ok with that and maybe even looking for it? The fact that it sounds like they didn't run away when they were found would also seem to indicate they were ok with the ramifications of what they were doing.

The attitude of "this is how it is, like it, or GTFO." is a really divisive one. I think we should try to welcome various playstyles, but even more than that, we should all try to be BETTER ROLEPLAYERS that acknowledge the environment, etc.

To my ears it sounds like there were some things that were done well in this and some that were done poorly, but instead of deciding to work on things that were done poorly people would rather justify how they were actually done totally fine. A difference of opinion I suppose :?
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Brian
Honored Elf
 
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Frigga » Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:07 pm

I'd like to take this moment to remind everyone that opinions on things are amazing. But, please reread the RPP rules. Rule for 1 RPP and all subsequent levels is a basic understanding this isn't a hack and slash.

It isn't unless you disagree or unless you don't see value in role playing and character based behavior. Not if you can justify the choice to yourself, your friends, or the forums.

This is a roleplay intense/roleplay enforced game. If people by their own individual and collective choice won't actively embrace that, it's likely time to more actively reward those that do, and ... well, punish those that don't.

And that can seem as worrying, unfair, or anything else, but ... There are posted expectations even if they aren't PvP specific. PvP is not uniquely immune to the RPP expectations and general rules.

So ... perhaps it's time to remember that.
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Frigga
The Ice Queen
 
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