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Losing interest

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Re: Losing interest

Postby Doublepalli » Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:11 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:
Gobbo wrote:I learned that the ambush bonus for attacking from hiding is massive. Its hard to pass up the massive chance to instantly kill someone to reveal yourself and rp with prey.

we passed it up anyways, and I think the chance for some roleplay leading up to the combat was more rewarding than having everyone ambush and aim for a TPK. A human even made the first attack, and I felt like the scene was handled very well by all sides. Sorry to hear about the first character running off the second he saw you, that's been a huge issue for basically everyone on all sides, and having people flee when you're typing out an emote is one of my pet peeves.

I feel all the comments about the orcs travelling through the night being twinkish are kind of unfair for several reasons.
First off, night-time isn't the 100% darkness that the game code represents, I've frequently been outside in the forest at night, and even though it's very dark, you are usually still able to see a few feet ahead of you and navigate without too much trouble. Orcs are creatures well adapted to living underground, and in caves. Their eyes are sharper than a regular humans. Because the area was near a mountain, the terrain would be very rocky. This naturally means less soil, and sparser trees, which means more moonlight is able to get through and brighten the area.
Main reason we didn't light a torch, was because I didn't want everyone getting shot down by arrows.


I think you couldn't have explained what I'm thinking better., radioactivejesus. Brian, you say I'm not hearing what others have to say - my first post was offering my two cents on how to help in the future. You've missed a couple good points, but I quoted them for you. The mirkwood does indeed get thicker the further you get from the mountain, but some of you are referring to orcs as people. Stop that. They are not human. Isn't it easy enough to say that orcs would see better in the mirkwood at day than humans would, and would as well in any sort of dark, or low-light conditions?(moonlight, or the mirkwood in general, really) They wouldn't be able to see 1-5 feet ahead of them? If the mirkwood is as dark as you say, even in day time, maybe we should only be able see 2 rooms ahead of us.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Brian » Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:29 pm

Doublepalli, perhaps you're right, I'd be fine with being only able to scan two rooms to really drive home how cramped and dark the Mirkwood is.

Are you trying to say that rooms that have descriptions talking about how almost no light reaches the forest floor in the daytime would have enough light at night to see by? I've been in woods at night without a light source, and no, you can't see five feet ahead of you. You can't see your hand in front of your face.

However if you want to go the road of orcs being able to see better in the dark I'll bite on that, but then in turn they should probably suffer the daylight penalties that have been removed for this incarnation of SoI? There's certainly more canon evidence to support orcs being weakened in daylight than there is to support them being able to see better in the dark.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Doublepalli » Sat Apr 18, 2015 5:38 pm

I think it would be awesome if orcs took daytimes penalties, in exchange for say, being able to see whats around them in the dark (the room they are in) which would also make warg-riders a whole lot simpler, along with having a weakened orc and a warg, rather an orc at full strength and a warg in the day.

As for descriptions in the mirkwood about how low light it already is, no i'm not saying ignore it, but you aren't an orc Brian, you don't have their kind of eyes. It wasn't my intention to twink or ignore the realistic aspect of the world or any way, and I don't feel I did. I truthfully do believe orcs, considering where they live and what they are, would at least be able to see 1-5 feet in front of them, and not clearly, either. Not that they have night vision, or anything. Just, natural evolution. From this thread, some players agree, some players disagree, and if the staff sees the pvp event that went down as really bad, you can expect a full apology on my behalf, but let's try to remember that these are orcs, not humans. Creatures of darkness, allied with other creatures of darkness. Before we departed, I thought it through, and I came up with them being cave and underground dwellers, so they must have at least a small radius of vision around them. I know for a fact orcs have hunted with other wargs at night before, sometimes guided, sometimes with a torch out. What I think we need, is a mutual understanding if orcs walking side by side with wargs, being guided at night is acceptable. I personally feel it is. Opinions differ. I'm not saying orcs should have night vision, or that them being with a warg grants them immunity to the environment and lighting, i'm just trying to point out that their eyes are naturally tuned to darker environments. An orc will be able to walk through an unlit area easier than a human would I bet.
Last edited by Doublepalli on Sat Apr 18, 2015 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Mithrandur » Sat Apr 18, 2015 5:59 pm

In this particular incident, I feel both sides are sort of at fault to some degree.

Human players, regardless of whether it is night time -or- day time, should not be really wandering/bumbling around orc caves for any reason. I mean really, If you're going out there expecting all the orcs to be hidden away in their caves I'm not sure what you intended to accomplish. If you went there expecting there to be orcs out and about, well you got your wish, don't complain if it turned out too much to handle.

That said, using one group leader who can see in the dark as an excuse that all people can see in the dark is almost all but ridiculous. Heck, I've lived in the same house for over 15 years without really changing the furniture layout, and at night time with the lights off I still slightly fumble around now and then, and that's in an area I have traversed many times every day, 365 days a year, for 15 years. I imagine being able to wander through the Mirk in pitch dark would be -way- more sketch.

For one, I'm not entirely sure where the idea that the warg's eyes are glowing at all. Infravision doesn't mean headlights. Wargs aren't the cheshire cat either where you'd see a pair of floating eyes just bobbing around. This in mind though, a warg leading -would- make the group travel a bit more safely/faster, but depending on how much of a head-start the humans had, I'm not sure if it would have been enough to close the distance or not. As I'm not privy to how close the humans were to orctown when they were re-engaed.

Though, I do find myself disappointed in the general concensus among players of combating twinkery with twinkery. If you find out human players are hanging around outside the orc caves in the middle of the night without a torch, feel free to let Staff know, I'm sure many of them would be more than happy to set some angry beasty on them.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Oblivion » Sat Apr 18, 2015 6:20 pm

Am I the only one who remembers a time when orcs actually had infravision of their own? And were effected by things like the sunlight so that they couldn't scan a single room past where they were standing so if they wanted to go out during the day which was the likeliest time to find human pvp, we would get shot from two or three rooms away without having any way of finding who was doing the shooting unless we rushed in that direction, searched, tracked, or got shot from a new direction?

Does anyone remember that the very same infravision was taken out solely in order to increase player vs player interaction, and that the negatives to combat for orcs during the daylight hours were removed as well in order to make orc players more likely to go out during the day?

Does anyone remember or acknowledge that any natural creature which has bred generations of their species in underground/minimal light environments develop sensory organs that help them navigate those environments? Such as 'low light' 'heat sense' 'echolocation'.

Do we all acknowledge the fact that orcs are fantasy creatures bred for the sole purpose of killing anything they are pointed at, and developed from the twisted and ...what is the word... bastardized version of elves (who themselves have infravision and all sorts of nifty super-human traits) ....

And we have people bitching about the fact that a group of these followed wargs, which are a relatively intelligent beast of prey boosted by magical dark powers in their creation, to hunt down a group of humans who were posted up in an environment designed to kill them, that has given rise to stories of terror for humans for generations, and these people are -surprised- when these terrible creatures come out of the darkness to get them?

Silly plebs, want the good guys to always win? Read a Drizz't book instead.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Melkor » Sat Apr 18, 2015 6:27 pm

Put the daylight penalty/infravision boost back for orcs. Leave humans as they are. Leave wargs as they are. Give elves the infravision boost. Problem solved.

There are other ways to increase inter-sphere interaction besides locking them in a room with butcher knives.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Mithrandur » Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:49 pm

Melkor wrote:Put the daylight penalty/infravision boost back for orcs. Leave humans as they are. Leave wargs as they are. Give elves the infravision boost. Problem solved.

There are other ways to increase inter-sphere interaction besides locking them in a room with butcher knives.



I think Oblivion sort of hit the nail on the head on why giving penalties/infravision back to orcs is a decidedly bad thing. At that point you'd go back to not having any pvp at all because orcs would be blind during the day, and Humans wouldn't go out at night.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Icarus » Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:24 pm

Idk, it was very persuasive for me to want to add it back in.

>_>
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Oblivion » Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:55 pm

Well, I suppose causing an atmosphere where the Antagonists and the Protagonists never engage one another without massive rpt planning would indeed cut down on the : He did something I don't like, punish him. Well they did this and it made me feel funny in the pants punish them. ... posts... Mostly because nobody would ever see anyone from the other sphere again unless one sphere or the other decided to take massive negatives to their chances of survival. And we all know how that turns out.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Mavinero » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:03 pm

Frigga wrote:I'd like to take this moment to remind everyone that opinions on things are amazing. But, please reread the RPP rules. Rule for 1 RPP and all subsequent levels is a basic understanding this isn't a hack and slash.

It isn't unless you disagree or unless you don't see value in role playing and character based behavior. Not if you can justify the choice to yourself, your friends, or the forums.

This is a roleplay intense/roleplay enforced game. If people by their own individual and collective choice won't actively embrace that, it's likely time to more actively reward those that do, and ... well, punish those that don't.

And that can seem as worrying, unfair, or anything else, but ... There are posted expectations even if they aren't PvP specific. PvP is not uniquely immune to the RPP expectations and general rules.

So ... perhaps it's time to remember that.



Sounds just fine to me.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby tehkory » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:06 pm

Icarus wrote:Idk, it was very persuasive for me to want to add it back in.

>_>

The first half of his post made me feel one way, and the second half made me feel the other way.

Honestly, I think at this point he's affecting a very effective parody of both sides of the argument? I'm not sure.

'Remember when orcs were bad during daylight? That was bad.'

'Remember how orcs are supposed to see at night? That's good.'

Or...uh. I don't know. Maybe he can post again? I'll try reading it again. But I'm not sure whether he's for infravision and sunpenalties, or against one, or just for everything that an orc might benefit from, or...uh.

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Re: Losing interest

Postby Droll » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:13 pm

Gouge at all PC's eyes.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Brian » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:20 pm

The conversation has gotten to the point where I don't think anybody is sure of anything anymore :p

I definitely think that the interaction is good. I think that orcs not being able to see at night is good and not having daylight penalties is good because it does indeed increase interaction.

I think that acknowledging your environment is good. I think that being a responsible roleplay, even when it puts you at a disadvantage, is exceptional.

I think we can make up any rationalization for just about anything. "The warg was telling each one of the characters exactly where to put their feet." Sure, we can say that, and maybe it was happening, but was it happening fast enough and for each individual to guide them through brambles, deadfalls, twisted roots and what not.

"Orcs have been bred for generations to see in the darkness." Actually, what usually happens to creatures that are cave dwellers is their vision gets progressively -worse- until they lose it eventually, so... yeah.

I think Mithrandur really put it best though:

Mithrandur wrote:Though, I do find myself disappointed in the general concensus among players of combating twinkery with twinkery.


This also saddens me. I can find just about any justification to do anything, even if it's not a good one, and I can defend it to the death if I want to. Kudos to those that don't, that acknowedge facts like needing light to see, that you can't instantly teleport out of a room and all of those other things. You folks are the cream of the crop and I hope I get to play with you!
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Icarus » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:28 pm

I think myself and Frigga are quickly approaching the point where we don't trust players, and want to code restrictions to twinkish behavior. ROE is the devil, and RPP is a good stick, but coded restrictions are the only thing that stops the worst of the worst.

How does Arm deal with it?
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Oblivion » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:34 pm

I'm for Things. ... And for Stuff.

For the most part, however, I was simply bringing up the fact that these very same topics and very same situations have been brought up innumerable times in the past... jesus... is it really going on 12 years now? And has never reached a 'please all the people all the time' cross roads.

Nor should it attempt to. You take what you have at the time and you do what you can with it. If something happens that you don't like, you get over it. NOT make some bitch-fest post that incites a 3 page 'discussion' (And I use the term loosely) pointing out all the perceived faults in our fellow players.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Eru » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:40 pm

Oblivion wrote:I'm for Things. ... And for Stuff.

For the most part, however, I was simply bringing up the fact that these very same topics and very same situations have been brought up innumerable times in the past... jesus... is it really going on 12 years now? And has never reached a 'please all the people all the time' cross roads.

Nor should it attempt to. You take what you have at the time and you do what you can with it. If something happens that you don't like, you get over it. NOT make some bitch-fest post that incites a 3 page 'discussion' (And I use the term loosely) pointing out all the perceived faults in our fellow players.


:nom:
Cut your losses, do what you believe is best for the game. I don't know when the forums decided to take a shift towards so much negativity and entitlement but this used to be a community where we encouraged others, -shared- opinions and a love for all things Tolkien. Isn't it time to get back to that?
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Icarus » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:40 pm

+1 to oblivion.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Songweaver » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:49 pm

Yes, please. Watching admins and players pick sides and try to claim that one side 'roleplays pvp better' than the other side is ludicrous. Some players may handle intense pvp situations at a higher level, either codely and/or roleplay-wise, but those players are ... dun, dun, dun:

Not always playing in the same sphere. Spheres and their playerbases fluctuate over time.

Let's stop pointing fingers at the opposite sphere, just because our characters are mired in conflict.

This is a big part of why I preach for a one-sphere setup with heavier RPA and admin interaction, instead of relying on player-vs-player interaction to be the primary source of conflict.

95% of you (yes, I mean you, no matter how awesome you know your roleplay prowess to be), cannot truly separate IC from OOC when its your character's life on the line. That pill's easier for most players to swallow when the source of their character's death is someone in a place of trusted authority -- such as an RPA.

Let's chill here, and try to find the meaning in what happened moving forward. Let's make some big ol' roleplay and consequences happen. Let's get angry in game.

Very few of us are trolls just out to ruin other peoples' day. Most of us are just trying to have as much fun as we can roleplaying, and creating roleplay for other people.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Melkor » Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:14 pm

Agreed with the last several posts or so up to Brian's last one.

I don't think this two sphere thing works right now, the game's too small player-wise and geographically. If we want to make it work, I'd say put the infravision stuff I said earlier back in. It's alpha right? Let's give it a shot and see how that goes. If people don't like it, we can change it back.

Now, I know what you're thinking. We did that in SOI2. Yeah, and it worked. Less gate-camping would work too. I dunno, just trying to throw out ideas.

edit: Ya know, now that I think about it some more. This is all a pretty good argument for making the wildlife a lot more dangerous. Either side is going to be a lot more cautious about crossing to the other side of the game and camping out at the gate of the opposing faction if it's not so easy to get there or get back.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Hawkwind » Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:38 pm

Make it no mans land in PVP, all bets off. Twink away, truly that would be the only level playing field. There are other avenues to peruse brothers-in-arms roleplay. It would save a lot of bad blood between those heavily engaged in PVP, would save PC's aggro, staff aggro and just less aggro in general.

A trade-off to prevent complete twinking could be increase/decrease stamina? So a pause would be required in escaping, or perhaps serious damage massively impacts available stamina? It's pretty hard to run when you've just ruined your leg, had the wind forcibly driven from your lungs?

I know it wouldn't be conductive to roleplay, but we have had this argument for the longest of times, perhaps rather than try to fix the problem we just remove it entirely. Say, hey go nuts, if you're in the Mirk looking for enemies, you have complete and utter free reign, just don't expect mercy. Those that detest PVP can and do take the precautions of not going out.

The only restraint that would be needed is during internal PVP, those inside the walls tend not be very attached to their characters, but if they are stupid enough to wander inside a locked room with you, go nuts.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby tehkory » Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:50 pm

Oblivion wrote:I'm for Things. ... And for Stuff.

For the most part, however, I was simply bringing up the fact that these very same topics and very same situations have been brought up innumerable times in the past... jesus... is it really going on 12 years now? And has never reached a 'please all the people all the time' cross roads.

Nor should it attempt to. You take what you have at the time and you do what you can with it. If something happens that you don't like, you get over it. NOT make some bitch-fest post that incites a 3 page 'discussion' (And I use the term loosely) pointing out all the perceived faults in our fellow players.

That's fair. I'm usually against needless change, myself. I think the world would be best represented by goblins without infravision and wargs with it, but that most of Mirkwood would be perma-dark(requiring torches if you go 'off the path', and there'd be no day/night dark-cycle. Anywhere that was lit in-game could be adequately described as lit -enough- by either starlight, moonlight, or daylight.

That said, as is often brought up...it's an Alpha. And wargs are particularly Alpha-ish. Not that I think it matters much what people perceive me to think, or even what I think(it's Icarus, Frigga, Nimrod, etc.'s vision that matters for this game), but...when we're in a state where wargs are in testing? I'm sure gonna bring it up. No point in behaving like the game's fully released as long as Admins are calling it an Alpha or a Beta.

I don't much think the players behind wargs/orcs are any worse than the players behind humans, and I've made equal or worse mistakes, I'm sure. But might as well try and get somewhere, rather than just shrugging and saying, 'Oh well, boys will be boys.' It wasn't SoI's finest hour on either side last night. It's not about excusing it all because twinkery and PVP happen; as Brian says, much more sweetly than I am ever going to attempt to, we can see a better game.

As an aside from what the thread's become, and going back to the beginning of this thread, what Utterby needs isn't better PCs with better boosts and stats, it needs a sphere/culture/laws designed to represent a desperate, unsafe frontier town under siege, and the clan infrastructure to support that. We've created this sterile sandbox of a city for people to play around in, but that's not what Utterby is, should be, or can be. It's a dangerous outpost, not a quaint little village. Few of the noncombat PCs here represent that, and that's primarily because of the 'noncombat' describing them.

It's some people's thing. But it's not the world that Admins created, unfortunately. And it's not the world that's going to exist, ever. Maybe not even by the time we get to Laketown. This is a dangerous, desperate setting; I love that! Despite what it's seemed/what people've assumed, I'm happily agreeing with Brian and Songweaver both on most every word they've written.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Oblivion » Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:11 am

[quote 'Oh well, boys will be boys.' It wasn't SoI's finest hour on either side last night. It's not about excusing it all because twinkery and PVP happen; as Brian says, much more sweetly than I am ever going to attempt to, we can see a better game.
][/quote]

Do you want to talk to me about 'wasn't their finest hour' moments?

Where I was killed as the General Founder of the North Ithilien Rangers by a bunch of random pcs digging through the fortress code with a tunnel and shooting up out of the darkness at one target?

Where I was the Force in charge of the Mines of Moria but I happened to get ambushed and killed by a bunch of pcs who somehow managed to find mithril weapons that very night and corner me in an open bar?

Where I was the brother of the orcish warlord of Minas Morgul and yet for some reason players thought it would be a bright and plot advancing idea to kill me because they had better skill advancement than I did because I was a plot driver rather than a skill character?

Where I was the half-troll leader of the arena that was purely for role play purposes and intended for amusement of the players in the sphere, but was killed off hand by some douchebag orc because of some slight that should have been completely ignored from an in world perspective because it was said by a -frigging half-troll!-

Where I was an Abomination, a reincarnated spirit of some foul creature housed in the body of a deceased half-troll and mutated/mutilated and 'empowered' with the same dark magics that flowed in the veins of the most powerful of Black wise, and yet I was killed in less than one minute by human players who were keen to add notches to their belts?

Where I was a well respected Osgiliath Guard member who was corrupted and eventually led to relocating to the East after months of involved role-play on both sides of the fence, only to die in a random engagement where the West had every member in full steel scale, and the best my side could hope for were bits of iron scale, and six of us ended up dead almost ending that clan completely?

What I am getting at here is this: MUCH more than your piddly ass tree cutter, or no name hunter, or want-to-be hero have died in far less satisfactory ways than you expect for your characters, but -somehow-(insert sarcasm emphasis here) those players have kept playing and contributing to the hobby / game that they enjoy over simply raging on the forum and expecting to be handed the 'poor me' award.

*and just for the record as an edit*
Almost half of the Orc-side pcs double as crafters. So it -is- completely plausible to expect your crafters to double as potential combat militia in the human side. But the scenerios you are fostering seems intent on keeping them separate.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby tehkory » Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:35 am

Oblivion wrote:Do you want to talk to me about 'wasn't their finest hour' moments?

I mean, not terribly. Especially ones twelve years old. How are they relevant?

old glories and shames best left-forgotten

These are so old they're damn near in the First Age, Oblivion. Forget them. Move on.

What I am getting at here is this: MUCH more than your piddly ass tree cutter, or no name hunter, or want-to-be hero have died in far less satisfactory ways than you expect for your characters, but -somehow-(insert sarcasm emphasis here) those players have kept playing and contributing to the hobby / game that they enjoy over simply raging on the forum and expecting to be handed the 'poor me' award.

I mean, heck, I ain't even managed to die yet in this SoI, and I can still manage to say that both sides did poorly instead of settling into partisanism and chest-beating about my sphere and how good it is, and definitely not wrong or guilty in any sense. Re-read Brian's posts some, please. And maybe a little less masturbating over past cool PCs. There actually -is- a thread for that, where you can battle them against new PCs Pokemon style. Myself, every damn time the humans end up at Vadok Mal, hanging out, I petition straight up and mention exaaaaactly where we are and what we're doing, just so Staff can react/give you guys a warning/bring you out. It's not terribly hard to do that shit.


*and just for the record as an edit*
Almost half of the Orc-side pcs double as crafters. So it -is- completely plausible to expect your crafters to double as potential combat militia in the human side. But the scenerios you are fostering seems intent on keeping them separate.

God yes. Absolutely. We agree! Solidly. I actually wrote up a set of laws, codifying this. I'll post them tomorrow, though they were written up/submitted a good four or five months ago.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Oblivion » Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:50 am

True, a lot of that was ego stroking and I don't even remember a full quarter of the full character list that I've played.

In the end, the point I wanted to get across was that all this random crap happened to characters I'd invested a lot of time and at least some minimal effort into and yet I'm still here playing the game. So why can't other people get over themselves and continue playing the game.

It's not the first time that 'Character with huge gamechanging potential has died prematurely' happened... and it sure as hell won't be the last.
Oblivion
Dwarf Recruit
 
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:51 pm

Re: Losing interest

Postby Siradril » Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:57 am

I think the main problem here is that people forget this is a game. You guys all defend your side with a passion that'd suit your characters in the game, not your actual self. From my own perspective, any argument that is being made is grounds to make this community/game a better place for all of us that are involved. The goal here is to get the best experience for all who are willing to dive in and taste the game.

Discussing whether Orcs should get penalty for daytime and bonus for night time is all good. But I personally think this is not a good measure to be taken. I believe that Orcs and Humans or whatever race comes up should have their struggle and giving them penalty won't do much good on the long run. For I do not think that Human sphere has any business venturing out at night.

Now since both spheres are moving out at daylight, we have the possibility of having interactions. There seems to be many issues that arise during these interactions. If it wasn't who twink walked, it will be who didn't emote. Or it'll be who used twink weapons.

I honestly don't believe that this thread is serving its purpose. Because we are simply waging war for the most part here. I was not part of the roleplay or the PvP that happened that night. I have however received reports and read every post about it. As I have said before, I do not believe that Orc sphere should be griefed for walking so fast in the night with the Warg's infravision. For the Human side had the same penalty of darkness which they have just as much abused by speed walking.

So the way I'd look at it is either both sides twinked (to ensure that they are more careful in the future when attempting to run away at night time) OR that both groups as expected ventured at a similar pace. You may say that Warg has infravision, I'll say that wargs aren't able to do many things that we all enjoy doing, crafts they are devoid of using. Now if you say that the Elf was meant to have infrared vision too, it'd have hardly changed anything either.

It'd have been bunch of orcs following infrared vision on warg against two humans following infrared Elf. So please don't make comments out of anger, the suggestion of daytime penalty will do a lot more harm than it can do good. We may have other problems on different side of matters. I for instance feel that dual wielding maces is somewhat of an abuse of the code given bludgeon's current state, this is not the topic to discuss it. Nor should it be an opportunity for me OR anyone else to bash at the opposing sphere over an entirely different topic.
Siradril
Verified Member
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:32 pm

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