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ROE and YOU

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ROE and YOU

Postby Jme » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:50 pm

ROE? What's that?


ROE, or Rules of Engagement, are a strict set of guidelines to help players create realistic and enjoyable engagements with one another by allowing for RP to take place prior to code implementation.

This is including, but not limited to - emoting before attacking, waiting for emotes before attacking, consider room and terrain in actions, allow for realistic pauses between actions to not rush the scene.

What all this basically means is that, everyone will always have the time to RP combat without fear of being caught off-guard while typing an emote.

These used to be actual enforceable laws implemented in the game - and I'd like to see it returned.

Would be delighted to hear your guys opinion on whether or not this should go back to being stickied and/or be an enforceable entity once more.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby LuckyV » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:01 pm

There was a thread about that.

People decided that we need RoP. Rules of Pooping.

But otherwise 9 out of 10 agree that RoE should be dropped and forgotten.

I agree too.

I encourage everyone to roleplay out engagements, but that does not mean you cannot start the battle without the haka.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Jme » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:06 pm

Here's a little example of how, by following ROE you can have realistic encounters with players that are fair for BOTH sides - preventing OOC confrontation over twinkiness or other such nonsense.

A large, fat man swaggers on over to you, growling at the man and reaching for a black leather sheath - hand clutching the sword hilt tightly.

You gasp as he notices the intent of a large, fat man - pushing to a stand and reaching to a tooled, leather sword-belt.

A large, fat man draws a time-worn, rough-edged longsword from a black leather sheath - swinging it at you.

(Now notice how he's RPly attacking, but won't CODELY attack until AFTER the other player has responded with his own actions - and readied himself.)


You draw a sharpened, steel-bladed shortsword from a tooled, leather sword-belt, attempting to deftly parry the blow before counter-attacking the man.

A large, fat man strikes You on the hip as you attempt to parry...

Then the code begins, and players can continue emoting during the fight as and when they choose to. Also, it's good form to only hit a player down to beat them - then RP the death out manually rather than killing them as if they were a warg in the woods or something.


Anyway I hope you guys enjoyed reading, and I hope this in anyway improves your playing experience :)
Have a Jmetastic day.

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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby krelm » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:08 pm

RoE makes encounters between hostile clans/spheres too awkward and clumsy, with entirely too many uses of the OOC command between parties.

In old SoI, everyone would run in, at least 2 people would spam kill, and then there would be 30 minutes of bitching about how Newbie McNewb should be banned for breaking RoE.

I much more like the idea of telling your far-ranging patrols beforehand over OOC, "Guys, if we run into the opposing sphere, try to RP before spamming kill." This is a game played, mostly, by adults, who, on most occasions, tend to act as such.

If you want to see a great log of RP in PvP, dig up one of the ones I posted on the Green Dragon board. There were no RoE rules in place when that engagement happened, we just RPed at each other while trying to kill each other, because, as it turns out, you don't have to be a dick on the internet 100% of the time.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Jme » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:08 pm

LuckyV wrote:There was a thread about that.

People decided that we need RoP. Rules of Pooping.

But otherwise 9 out of 10 agree that RoE should be dropped and forgotten.

I agree too.

I encourage everyone to roleplay out engagements, but that does not mean you cannot start the battle without the haka.


I understand we have a lot of players from Atonement, and Arm.

But this game isn't either of those - so we shouldn't resort back to primitive, bare-bone standards just out of convenience and habit.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Jme » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:10 pm

krelm wrote:RoE makes encounters between hostile clans/spheres too awkward and clumsy, with entirely too many uses of the OOC command between parties.

In old SoI, everyone would run in, at least 2 people would spam kill, and then there would be 30 minutes of bitching about how Newbie McNewb should be banned for breaking RoE.

I much more like the idea of telling your far-ranging patrols beforehand over OOC, "Guys, if we run into the opposing sphere, try to RP before spamming kill." This is a game played, mostly, by adults, who, on most occasions, tend to act as such.

If you want to see a great log of RP in PvP, dig up one of the ones I posted on the Green Dragon board. There were no RoE rules in place when that engagement happened, we just RPed at each other while trying to kill each other, because, as it turns out, you don't have to be a dick on the internet 100% of the time.


I do agree a lot with this Krelm, you're right, a lot of people bitched and whined in OOCly. But on the flippity flip - not many people got twink killed. And when they did, it was punishable.

I don't think ROE should be ENFORCED, but it should be something that is widely demonstrated and encouraged at the very least - but it's the responsibility of leader PCs to set those examples in-game.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby derrenp » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:27 pm

Since I feel this is linked to the engagement that took place today, I'd like to defend both sides mildly without revealing what exactly went down.

So we'll call one side Home Team and the other side Visitors.

The Visitors went to Home Team's field before Home Team did and set up a play that would only go down just in case Home Team decided to force the Visitors into a game of football.

Home Team came, not knowing the play, and did RP with the Visitor's team leader. Thinking there wasn't a play in place, Home Team's captain ordered his team to force the Visitor into a game of football.

Though there was no RPing the play either team made, due to, I don't know, bloodthirsty RP or just plain we've-got-the-rp-part-out-of-the-way, but it resulted in the Visitor's play happening fairly quickly.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Jme » Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:01 pm

derrenp wrote:Since I feel this is linked to the engagement that took place today, I'd like to defend both sides mildly without revealing what exactly went down.

So we'll call one side Home Team and the other side Visitors.

The Visitors went to Home Team's field before Home Team did and set up a play that would only go down just in case Home Team decided to force the Visitors into a game of football.

Home Team came, not knowing the play, and did RP with the Visitor's team leader. Thinking there wasn't a play in place, Home Team's captain ordered his team to force the Visitor into a game of football.

Though there was no RPing the play either team made, due to, I don't know, bloodthirsty RP or just plain we've-got-the-rp-part-out-of-the-way, but it resulted in the Visitor's play happening fairly quickly.


I won't comment or give details since IMMs don't want me talking about it - but more or less.
Have a Jmetastic day.

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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Rivean » Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:02 pm

Derrenp, thanks for making no sense whatsoever. If your purpose was to obfuscate the events in question, you've certainly succeeded.

As to the OP - I said this before. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but your post comes across as very disingenuous to me. It seems to be written by someone who is not aware that the RoE was the most frequently recurring, messiest shitstorm in SoI history and that nobody to date has ever managed to come up with a system that worked and kept a significant number of people happy.

Ultimately, I think, no holds barred is the only way to be totally, completely fair.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby jimhabegger » Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:04 pm

This looks to me like part of a larger problem, a perpetual conflict of interests between people who are playing for different, irreconcilable reasons. As I see it, even people who are here primarily for role-playing, have different, irreconcilable role-playing interests.

My solution is first, to try to free myself from all ill will, to resist the temptation to depreciate anyone, and to maintain friendly feelings and intentions towards every person here. Next, to reconcile myself to seeing my rp broken a lot. Next, to try to find IC ways of viewing and responding to the anomalies.

It's up to the administrators to decide how wide a range of interests they want to accomodate, and I won't be trying to influence them in that, unless it's to promote widening the range.

One possible way I see to improve the quality and consistency of the role-playing, but which might be far too demanding on human resources, would be for players to progress into the game world in stages. Beginning players would not have access to every part of the world, and their access would increase in accordance with how well and how consistently they play into the game's story lines, and respect the RP of others.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Rivean » Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:08 pm

jimhabegger wrote:One possible way I see to improve the quality and consistency of the role-playing, but which might be far too demanding on human resources, would be for players to progress into the game world in stages. Beginning players would not have access to every part of the world, and their access would increase in accordance with how well and how consistently they play into the game's story lines, and respect the RP of others.


This was implemented in the previous iteration of the game via RPP through which access to higher tier races and roles was made available. Unfortunately, the part of the game to which ROE most necessarily applies is the part dealing with inter-sphere combat (usually). And that means between the combat clans of the humans/orcs.

Restricted access to those clans would be disastrous because new players are disproportionately drawn to combat roles.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Stoneturtle » Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:46 pm

ROE was one of those things that sounded really good but in practice was awful. And then new rules would be added to cover the new problems, and it rapidly grew to something impossible and enormously frustrating.

People should be able to expect RP before combat, though. I just don't know how it can be /forced/.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Matt » Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:51 pm

So when I use stealth to sneak up on people sitting in a camp I'm supposed to emote after passing my sneak check? Nope, going to whack you in the head. I promise I'll emote after that though.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Hawkwind » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:21 pm

jimhabegger wrote:This looks to me like part of a larger problem, a perpetual conflict of interests between people who are playing for different, irreconcilable reasons. As I see it, even people who are here primarily for role-playing, have different, irreconcilable role-playing interests.


I believe this part here is the crux of the matter regarding a lot of the issues we all see.

They want the easy, they want the hard.
They want the PG13, theh want NC17.
They want canon paramount, they want real world influences.

Now in the past we have seen staff cater to (or try too) all shapes and sizes. What you get is a rather odd mess. Perhap (maybe after beta?) the staff may come down on one side of the fence or another depending on what happens during Alpha. As we all come from different backgrounds of mudding we all expect to get different things out of the game based on what we have done in previous.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby kestrel » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:27 pm

Rivean wrote:Derrenp, thanks for making no sense whatsoever. RoE was the most frequently recurring, messiest shitstorm in SoI history.


Yep!

If RoE were added back in it would be one of the few things I'd actually bitch about publicly.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby MrDvAnt » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:28 pm

We should just completely RP any and all conflicts and rely on each others' good rp skills and maturity to allow for a fair outcome. Oh right, that's a mush...
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Tepes » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:29 pm

Use common sense. That's how it works. People go to code, reply in code. Just run away, or kill them back.

Sucks to say, but that's how it goes.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Nimrod » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:32 pm

Don't expect to see RoE from staff during Alpha, and hopefully not ever. We've worked -very- hard to give people some safe play areas. All other areas are dangerous. Period. Our zero rezz policy is now in full effect, so wander at your own risk. Staff takes zero responsibility for link-dead or afk players.

This does not mean staff will not take action against PKers. We certainly do if it is called for. We investigate every single death, often-times spending many hours sifting through player logs as well as our system logs to discover the truth. That truth may not please some people, especially when we cannot disclose the whole truth to them, but that is the nature of the game.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby derrenp » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:51 pm

Rivean wrote:Derrenp, thanks for making no sense whatsoever. If your purpose was to obfuscate the events in question, you've certainly succeeded.


I don't know that the passive aggression's called for, I know of a few people who read it and understood what happened without being involved.

That said, I didn't play SOI before this for longer than 2 hours, so I have no idea what ROE actually was, but I think I get the gist. I do agree a little courtesy can go a long way of softening the blow of death, and do feel if that's rewarded, it might go a long way towards promoting more RP before PvP.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Throttle » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:06 pm

I have no idea what ROE actually was


For reference, the official Rules of Engagement was a set of rules that two sides had to follow before it was okay to engage in PvP. I can't remember the exact ones, but it was stuff like "both sides have to emote at least once before attacking is allowed" and "if you're escaping from an enemy, you have to let them attack you in each room they follow you into, and escape using flee/retreat."

Some of the rules were sensible enough, to be honest, in order to ensure that people didn't just sprint in and instantly attack, but there were also some really dumb rules in there at times (the RoE changed pretty sporadically), some of which essentially translated in practice into 'the weaker party has to let the stronger party kill them.' The problem was that the rules were broken in just about every instance of PvP, either because new players didn't know about it or because you stood to benefit hugely from not following these rules.
Last edited by Throttle on Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby WorkerDrone » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:07 pm

I understood it perfectly. One person(s) came into the scene prepared, other persons came in unprepared, RP was done, if but to get it out of the way, and hit/kill was spammed promptly once it was deemed so. The unprepared were cut down, the prepared walked away. Didn't seem that hard to follow.

If most PVP situations go down like that, then I'm assuming people are making a habit of walking into white-flag situations prepared to draw on the envoys.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby tehkory » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:11 pm

Yeah, I'll just have to say, while even utterly uninvolved, I got what Derren was saying. He made it pretty clear. One side came, ready to play, pre-prepared, the other side tried to steamroll and got streamrolled for their trouble.


RE: ROE, I'll join in saying that, unfortunately, they do nothing and cause nothing but trouble. They don't change player behavior. Encouraging good play does.

Our zero rezz policy is now in full effect, so wander at your own risk. Staff takes zero responsibility for link-dead or afk players.


I'm going to bring this into another thread, but this definitely seems like a bad decision for Alpha.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby BoogtehWoog » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:17 pm

I agree with the others that the ROE, while seemingly a nice theory, never worked in practice. I think more can be accomplished through positive reinforcement as opposed to adhering to ROE.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby RiderOnTheStorm » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:25 pm

tehkory wrote:
Our zero rezz policy is now in full effect, so wander at your own risk. Staff takes zero responsibility for link-dead or afk players.


I'm going to bring this into another thread, but this definitely seems like a bad decision for Alpha.


Last night while walking around the woods, I went a direction that was not colored. I got the 'you try to climb and fall' message, fell, took two stars of damage, went uncon, and was suddenly in a dark room, despite having been able to see in the direction I went when I scannned.

I did not die because of that, but I agree 'no rez' seems like a bad idea. If it is -bug- related, it probably deserves a rez.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby jimhabegger » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:29 pm

MrDvAnt wrote:We should just completely RP any and all conflicts and rely on each others' good rp skills and maturity to allow for a fair outcome. Oh right, that's a mush...


Bingo! Thank you! I just did a search on that, and it might be more like what I've been looking for.

As far as this game goes, what I'm thinking now is to look for the safest places in the game world for my kind of RP, and hope to find some other characters there to RP with. If there *are* any other players interested in my kind of RP, those might be the best places to find them.
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