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ROE and YOU

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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Hawkwind » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:58 pm

Was the zero rez policy made to decrease the workload of admins not having to waste their time with player issues while the game was still in its infancy? Right now we are playing to iron out bugs, problems and other things that might detract from the finished product?
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby WorkerDrone » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:00 pm

I've pretty much resolved to either enjoy writing high-effort, low-return applications on a regular basis or become prepared to lower my range.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby tehkory » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:41 pm

Hawkwind wrote:Was the zero rez policy made to decrease the workload of admins not having to waste their time with player issues while the game was still in its infancy? Right now we are playing to iron out bugs, problems and other things that might detract from the finished product?



WorkerDrone wrote:I've pretty much resolved to either enjoy writing high-effort, low-return applications on a regular basis or become prepared to lower my range.


WD gets it. The issue is that we are putting in a fair amount of effort, -every- single time we play this game. I understand dying to PVP. I understand dying to PVE(the linkdead issue is obnoxious, but oh well: it is what it is, and it's a drop in the bucket compared to this one). I understand dying in plots.

But if I die because I was testing the game out, and there was a legitimate, obvious bug, or building that wasn't fully tested/didn't work as intended? That's something else entirely. That's increasing total workload/reducing my likelihood to test buggy things out. I've died on Atonement because Tiamat, to quote her, "added an extra 0." I got rezzed. It's the obvious, intelligent -design- choice. This no-bug-rez policy isn't.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby MrDvAnt » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:42 pm

jimhabegger wrote:
MrDvAnt wrote:We should just completely RP any and all conflicts and rely on each others' good rp skills and maturity to allow for a fair outcome. Oh right, that's a mush...


Bingo! Thank you! I just did a search on that, and it might be more like what I've been looking for.

As far as this game goes, what I'm thinking now is to look for the safest places in the game world for my kind of RP, and hope to find some other characters there to RP with. If there *are* any other players interested in my kind of RP, those might be the best places to find them.


There are many people with many different RP preferences. You should be able to find people with like interests if you look in the right place. Combat is, by it's very nature, quick and brutal and there isn't always time or IC reason for a long, drawn-out conversation beforehand.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby MrT2G » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:59 pm

Here's a question I'm wondering what the general/staff's opinion on is...

Is it necessary to emote before ambushing someone from hiding in a PK situation?
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby WorkerDrone » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:06 pm

Heck no. There is a coded incentive to attacking from ambush, because you codedly "get the jump" on the person you are ambushing. That's why it's called an ambush.

That's not to say emoting directly after attacking, say, having something prepared if possible to prompt immediately after going to code, wouldn't be a keen decision, but to say, yeah, everyone has to politely drop visibility, bow twice, and reenter hiding so people can either twink-flee or spam hit/kill?

I wouldn't say that, is the point. I would say ambush away.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby krelm » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:31 pm

I think that was the first time I've ever seen Kestrel use a swear word on the forums.

EDIT: Sorry, that was off-topic.

But I don't have anything else to add except what I said earlier, and also Rivean's use of the word "shitstorm" was an apt descriptor.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby EltanimRas » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:18 am

krelm wrote:I much more like the idea of telling your far-ranging patrols beforehand over OOC, "Guys, if we run into the opposing sphere, try to RP before spamming kill." This is a game played, mostly, by adults, who, on most occasions, tend to act as such.

We may not want rigid, over-complicated, and admin-enforced ROE, but a wiki page offering general guidelines on PvP etiquette might not go amiss.

"RP before spamming kill" is easy and obvious, sure, but people rolling their first few SoI PCs (or their first few combat PCs!) might still benefit from a central source for things like the hit/kill distinction, the perception and emoting capabilities of unconscious PCs, outdoor room sizes, prepping post-ambush emotes, etc.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Rivean » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:29 am

derrenp wrote:
Rivean wrote:Derrenp, thanks for making no sense whatsoever. If your purpose was to obfuscate the events in question, you've certainly succeeded.


I don't know that the passive aggression's called for, I know of a few people who read it and understood what happened without being involved.


Text is so atonal. Sorry, it was meant more as lighthearted sarcasm than passive aggressiveness.

ETA:

EltanimRas: I think he's talking about American football, too.

Rivean: Ahhhhhhhh...

Rivean: ...well, no wonder.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby hobbitboots » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:15 am

EltanimRas wrote:We may not want rigid, over-complicated, and admin-enforced ROE, but a wiki page offering general guidelines on PvP etiquette might not go amiss.


That's not a bad idea, perhaps as part of a newbie guide to RP etiquette.

I'm glad to see so many people opposed to RoE. As a policy, I think it's better to reward good behavior rather than punishing bad behavior.

Complaints of RoE breaking end up making an ugly scene on the forums and consume precious staff efforts.

As a policy, I'd rather see this covered under the general expectation that this is a roleplay enforced MUD. That expectation doesn't end when PvP begins. I don't want to see specific expectations of what constitutes RP though. There are just too many ways a scene can go down, and trying to come up with a one-size-fits-all approach leads to hamfisted scenes where it's obvious everybody is just going through the motions to cover their ass in case of an RoE complaint. Filling out your RP TPS reports, as it were. The ambush is a good example of a situation that makes perfect sense to go to code without giving your fellow player an emote first. Probably a good idea to throw out a think or two to make it clear in the logs what's going on your character's head, though.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Jme » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:35 am

My issue is: I can twink, I'm damned good at it - but I hate doing it, and I know most people hate seeing it or doing it themselves.

RoE is an anti-twink implementation to create a foundation for players to use as guidelines for a more enjoyable experience.

Yes, ROE in the past HAS been a shit-storm Krelm, I was there in the Mines, Ithilien for years - seeing some scenes be held up 30-60 minutes because one guy decided it was unfair for them to start shooting without emoting or whatever else.

ROE is simple, there's 1 rule of ROE you follow:

You attempt to uphold ROE, until someone else DOESN'T. Then you stop using ROE, and f**k them up.

Can't get simpler than that :)

It's the ethics I live by, soon as someone twinks against me - that's it, all bets are off Sir.

I think Krelm has probably one of fairest approached to ROE in modern times, he does the bare minimal - until you show you can also play fair, then he plays more fair.

That's a good approach, but the more people think like that - the more people will be quicker to go to code...

Which is fine... Sometimes... Code is good - if you at least say, emote before attacking, let them draw unless you're ambushing, don't kill AFK players :evil: :cry: and so on.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby BoogtehWoog » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:43 am

Jme wrote:ROE is simple, there's 1 rule of ROE you follow:

You attempt to uphold ROE, until someone else DOESN'T. Then you stop using ROE, and f**k them up.



That's still ROE, though. And it just creates problem for players and staff alike. We'll just end up with countless posts of people complaining about other players not abiding ROE. And it won't solve anything, yet it will just create problems. No ROE and rewarding positive behavior is probably the best way to go.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Letters » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:43 am

A wise man wrote:Horse guards, ho!


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=302&start=125 may be of interest. There were some more thoughts in that thread.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby kestrel » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:48 am

Letters wrote:
A wise man wrote:Horse guards, ho!


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=302&start=125 may be of interest. There were some more thoughts in that thread.


You sly devil, you.

Edit: I was referring to the wise man! And joking aside, I remember that being a particular low point, yeah.
Last edited by kestrel on Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Jme » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:03 am

I'm one of the victims of those horse guards (shield horses) so don't remind me ;)

I'll explain what happened to those that don't know

Party Leader is leading a Mordor patrol vs Human patrol.
Party Leader is getting beat up, calls for help.
Most PCs are injured, or engaged x2-4 across the board.
Party Leader is only engaged x1 or x2 yet still decides he is more important.
Party Leader commands all to 'rescue Del', making our horses save him - making our horses take aggro....
Foolish Jme was guarding his horse with a tower shield to stop his prized warhorse getting beaten up by the smelly humans.
Foolish Jme died.

:(
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Jme » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:21 am

Hawkwind wrote:Was the zero rez policy made to decrease the workload of admins not having to waste their time with player issues while the game was still in its infancy? Right now we are playing to iron out bugs, problems and other things that might detract from the finished product?


It was made because the IMMS thought "Jme's going to die a f**king lot." :lol:
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby tehkory » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:01 am

BoogtehWoog wrote:
Jme wrote:ROE is simple, there's 1 rule of ROE you follow:

You attempt to uphold ROE, until someone else DOESN'T. Then you stop using ROE, and f**k them up.



That's still ROE, though. And it just creates problem for players and staff alike. We'll just end up with countless posts of people complaining about other players not abiding ROE. And it won't solve anything, yet it will just create problems. No ROE and rewarding positive behavior is probably the best way to go.


It's worse than that. It's not even RoE. It's s a nondefined term. "Obey the RoE."

Well, what are RoE?
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Icarus » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:03 am

We reward good behavior with OP races that can kill even the best twink. *sagenod*
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby RiderOnTheStorm » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:14 am

Icarus wrote:We reward good behavior with OP races that can kill even the best twink. *sagenod*


Can't wait to see warg mudsex.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Hazgarn » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:19 am

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:
Icarus wrote:We reward good behavior with OP races that can kill even the best twink. *sagenod*


Can't wait to see warg mudsex.

Or spiders. Dinner and a show (though obviously not in that order...) :lol:
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby hobbitboots » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:42 pm

This isn't a choice between RoE and unrestrained twinkage. There is a middle ground called common sense. If you are doing something that makes you feel twinky, you probably shouldn't be doing it.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Hawkwind » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:09 pm

hobbitboots wrote:This isn't a choice between RoE and unrestrained twinkage. There is a middle ground called common sense. If you are doing something that makes you feel twinky, you probably shouldn't be doing it.


If you think if may be in poor taste/unethical it is. Its that simple. People know dropping f-bombs, screaming about intimate things in a public space, attacking ASAP in PVP and a whole mess of other things are against the spirit of an MUD based in Tolkien's world but they do it anyways.

It is up to those who are pillars of our community from all games we h.ave played to shoulder one last burden and show us by example how enjoyable the game can be if there is maturity and cohesion in the playerbase
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Jme » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:16 pm

I have a small solution to our problems!

We get an AUTODRAW flag, which is similiar to AUTOFLEE but opposite - in the sense, it makes you stand up and draw your weapon automatically. To help defend against twinks.

GG.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby jimhabegger » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:55 pm

Hawkwind wrote:People know ... and a whole mess of other things are against the spirit of an MUD based in Tolkien's world but they do it anyways.


That might be part of what's happening, but as I see it, most of the behavior that disrupts the game for each person is not knowingly done in violation of the spirit of the game. I think most of it comes from the fact that every player has his own idea of the spirit of the game, and the fact that the administrators try to be as inclusive and even-handed as possible.

In any case, I don't see any plausible hope for *any* game grounded in code to provide a consistently safe environment for anyone's idea of RPI. Crafting, leveling, PvP, PvE, whatever the game is coded for will always take precedence over the RP, and the game will always attract more people whose priorities are in those other dimensions, than people whose priority is RP. Certainly no one's priority is going to be other people's RP.

At this point, the best possible way I see to have a seamless RP experience, has already been discussed: Seek out the safest places we can find for it within the game. Beyond that, civil discussions like this about our conflicts of interest can make a difference in the behavior of players who want to help improve the experience of others, and can help administrators see what, if anything, they can do to help.
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Re: ROE and YOU

Postby Jme » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:50 pm

I agree with almost everything Jim just said - its also a point that, it's more of a problem of - people are used to things being this way for so long, they are afraid or just unwilling to accept change.

But this is Alpha, in a new game, with new concepts and ideas.

This is the time for change, since everyone is getting used to OTHER changes already.

The game focus should be providing a seemless RP experience, and we can sort out a lite-ROE which is a much less restrictive baby brother so that it's more flexible.

I don't necessarily think players should be shouted at for breaking ROE or not focusing on following it - but it should be an example of exemplary role-play, so there is the incentive to follow it, for the respect of fellow players and admins, and be more likely to receive RPP.

This would be a solution - since all the twinks would be stuck at 0RPP average characters, and the ones that show they can be realistic, sensible and fair - get the RPP to make more interesting characters to fill the world in important positions rather than allowing the uncooperative players to progress until they're ready to take the game seriously.
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