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Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby WorkerDrone » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:25 pm

From a balance standpoint, it doesn't make a lot of sense to limit and relegate over 70% of all skill increases to fights against wildlife*. In most cases, doing battle with animals isn't really the best place to hone and learn proper technique used against armed and armored, more dangerous opponents. You learn skills needed to handle wild animals, and even how to properly defend yourself against reckless/powerful blows from those types of enemies, but not really how to be a better warrior.

And you don't become a better warrior through live battle, either, given the nature and chaos of real war and the battlefield, but rather put muscle memory and drilled moves and techniques and skills to use, all of which you learned in obstacle courses, training yards and sparring rings.

Learning in life or death situations isn't very efficient, on top of all that. Possible, sure, especially when you receive a reminder like a scar or wound (injuries) to teach you what not to do, but most people will lock down what it means to be a soldier through drilling.

*The reason why this doesn't make sense is because training through sparring or drilling can be made to require roleplay, if everyone is being a good sport, and twinking can be cracked down upon or go unrewarded, as with the teach command. Everyone can go out and murder whole forests of animals, and since they'll all respawn, encouraging this sort of jarring behavior ends up with an increasingly huge amount of death for little IC returns.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby Songweaver » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:30 pm

I am a trained melee fighter in real life, having taken classes in various weapons (specifically, classic middle-aged weapons similar to those found in Middle-Earth) for the past ten years. You do not improve beyond the basics with wooden weapons. You can learn technique, but wielding a real weapon with a weapon's weight and balance in real life-or-death situations is a level of experience that goes FAR beyond mine. It's what would separate reasonably trained foot-soldiers from killers in olden times.

If sparring can take folks above the talented level in a combat skill, it should have the full dangers of actual combat, including the possibility for reckless and accidental death. A craft would be a safer solution, but it shouldn't be comparable.

For those willing to spar with real weapons in-game, it doesn't bother me much. I find it only slightly jarring.

----

Separately ... the lack of documentation on (at least) the human side in regards to culture, clans, history, lore, NPCs, language, beliefs, traditions, and everything else is lacking in a major way. That's to say it's nearly non-existence. It's asking a lot of people to tell them that they have to fit into a very narrow gameworld, and then not define that world and its people for them.

I attribute this to the all-over-the-placeness of most humans' roleplay in the human sphere.
Last edited by Songweaver on Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby WorkerDrone » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:32 pm

I guess I should clarify I'm not exactly an advocate of sparring increasing your skill levels beyond Adroit, but certainly toward Talented. I'm also an advocate of sparring being far less dangerous than it is now, with the chance for accidents. Balancing.

ETA:

Sparring with real weapons, obviously, would be something few people could attempt and escape from without grievous harm, if only because without adjusting effort levels in some fashion, the moment a PC picks up a real weapon, codedly they're 100% of the time trying their damndest to kill or mortally injure their opponents. That's just the way the code works.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby alexjones » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:00 pm

maybe speed up healing?
my character often spars at dusk and she's never healed by dawn so she has to go out on patrol with several injuried, I don't recall having this problem with the old SOI, after sparring I would normally by healed by the dawn but that doesn't seem to be the case here.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby Throttle » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:23 pm

That's because the awful armor means pretty much every hit you take in sparring is a minor or moderate, even not-so-infrequent severes with persistent somatic effects like concussions and fractures.

The damage incurred to the armor itself in sparring is also extreme, so people are discouraged from using their good armor, often changing into their ruined padded starter stuff instead. In fact, I think there's a need for a thorough look at equipment damage in general because the holes that armor suffers often don't correspond at all to the damage dealt.

On top of this, sparring weapons give sizeable penalties to deflect, and while they also give similar penalties to weapon skills, these tend to be a lot higher for most PCs whereas a -10 or whatever to deflect can put one into near-defenseless territories which means one gets absolutely thrashed in seconds.

It's a little bit ridiculous and I think sparring weapons could do with a damage nerf. I think they're still designed after standards that were set when people sparred in full mail or plate.
Last edited by Throttle on Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby tehkory » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:26 pm

Throttle wrote:That's because the awful armor means pretty much every hit you take in sparring is a minor or moderate, even not-so-infrequent severes with persistent somatic effects like concussions and fractures. The damage incurred to the armor itself in sparring is also extreme, so people are discouraged from using their good armor, often chaing into their ruined padded starter stuff instead.

On top of this, sparring weapons give sizeable penalties to deflect, and while they also give similar penalties to weapon skills, these tend to be a lot higher for most PCs whereas a -10 or whatever to deflect can put one into near-defenseless territories which means one gets absolutely thrashed in seconds.

It's a little bit ridiculous and I think sparring weapons could do with a damage nerf. I think they're still designed after standards that were set when people sparred in full mail or plate.

Ironically, throttle, I'm not so certain the armor IG is 'awful.' We're all at "well-armored," right now, when we wear the four pieces available. Not sure how the rebalanced weapons and damage and etc. works out with the armor we're wearing.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby Throttle » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:29 pm

I edited the post a bit while you were replying. Still, the armor is pretty weak compared to what used to be available. We also haven't got any of the layering pieces except for cloaks, and there's currently nothing that gives protection to the face. The code may say 'well-armoured' but we're not really.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby Vwest » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:37 pm

Right now, sparring is far more dangerous than fighting a couple of wolves.

It's no problem to put down a couple wolves with a few nicks or notches that heal up in an hour or so, where as sparring with wood weapons can land you nearly dead and out of action for RL days in seconds.

My very first encounter with combat in the game was sparring, where I very nearly killed a friends PC because he couldn't 'stop combat' due to my PC kicking his ass all over the training yard without mercy.

My second was nearly getting knocked out and killed in sparring, then waiting over a RL day before the character could even stand up again, which wouldn't have happened at all without staff assistance.

The number of people who shuffle out the gates come morning to fight wolves and bears is incredible, yet they're the safest combatants in the game, since sparring PCs will leave you crippled rather quickly.

I don't really care about the realism of it; it's still a game we play for fun and sparring is a very regular reason for PCs to get together and be social.

Sparring should never carry more risk than a few wolves, at any point.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby tehkory » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:39 pm

Vwest wrote:Right now, sparring is far more dangerous than fighting a couple of wolves.

It's no problem to put down a couple wolves with a few nicks or notches that heal up in an hour or so, where as sparring with wood weapons can land you nearly dead and out of action for RL days in seconds.

My very first encounter with combat in the game was sparring, where I very nearly killed a friends PC because he couldn't 'stop combat' due to my PC kicking his ass all over the training yard without mercy.

My second was nearly getting knocked out and killed in sparring, then waiting over a RL day before the character could even stand up again, which wouldn't have happened at all without staff assistance.

The number of people who shuffle out the gates come morning to fight wolves and bears is incredible, yet they're the safest combatants in the game, since sparring PCs will leave you crippled rather quickly.

I don't really care about the realism of it; it's still a game we play for fun and sparring is a very regular reason for PCs to get together and be social.

Sparring should never carry more risk than a few wolves, at any point.


The number of PCs dead to sparring in Utterby compared to the number of PCs dead from wolves in Utterby argues with you strongly.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby Matt » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:42 pm

Sparring in no armor/cloth armor isn't going to be a good time.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby someguy » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:07 pm

Well, since everyone else is throwing in their two cents, I might as well, too.

One: Familiar weapon skills (based on Alpha caps) are more or less worthless. If the caps are significantly lower than they were in Atonement Alpha, maybe we're all supposed be bumbling idiots.
Two: Sparring should take you two levels below the maximum you can 'reasonably' get through risking your life.
Three: The damage on sparring weapons should be lowered. I've been thinking about changing out my real weapon for one.

But wait, you say, what the heck do you know, someguy? I answer: I've seen people that excel in a training environment that crumple into a worthless ball when the proverbial dookie hits the fan. Training is all well and good and without training, more people would be useless when the dookie hits the rotating blades of reality, but training does not make up for the stress, adrenaline rush, and chaos of the real thing.

Soldiers shouldn't have to basically depend on hunting to become worthwhile soldiers. It's dumb. If they wanted to be hunters, they would have been hunters.

Now, with a viable way to safely train is everyone going to become a logger/badass fighter? Probably not because of the int based skill cap, and two levels below 'max' is not a badass.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby Tiamat » Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:07 am

someguy wrote:Three: The damage on sparring weapons should be lowered. I've been thinking about changing out my real weapon for one.


You're not wrong. This should hopefully be fixed soon. ;D
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby krelm » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:03 am

Just shedding some light here, vis-a-vis fractures:

What happens if you get a fracture, is the wound doesn't heal at all. What you have to do is get the fracture treated down to a minor, at which point the fracture will disappear and the wound will heal on its own.

So, if you take a grievous wound (which is usually around 40-50% of your HP, so let's pretend your HP is 100 (it isn't), so we're looking at about 40 damage), you have to get that damage, all 40 points of it, treated down manually, which means not only do you have to wait for the (treated) tag to go away, you have to pray to holy God that your medic can actually pass the treat. I had a PC back in Atonement with adroit first-aid and talented medicine, and the shortest amount of time it ever took me to treat a fracture off someone was like 2 RL days.


Incidentally, I don't have any particular wishes to throw up at the moment, but maybe that should be changed a little. Though, on the other hand, you can't just sleep a broken bone off, so maybe it's fine.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby LuckyV » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:25 am

So Songweaver, how many fractures did you get in those years?

I loved how it was in old SoI. Sparring and fighting was unrealistic and fun and in that way allowed you to concentrate on playing the game and role-playing the way you wish.



Let the NPCs be novices and PCs be heroes. That's my wish.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby WorkerDrone » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:33 am

I guess there's a tossup here, Lucky, because the staff on the Old SoI that Was probably would agree with the following statement,

"Let the NPCs be novices, let the PCs be heroes".

From Atonement Beta onwards, the people involved with administrative decisions have decided that heroes who are all the iconic attributes of heroes, like being master swordsmen/bowmen/gunslingers, who are dashing and cavalier and always save the day should be rare and rarer, and hardly possible except for one out of a hundred PCs ever created. That's just from what I've observed.

The other kind of heroics that I've seen supported by anyone who's run an Atonement-lite game are heroics performed by absolutely mundane people with marginal ability compared to the Eothelms and Travellers of The SoI that Was.

Tl;Dr?

Staff in all likelihood never wants to see another Traveller or Eothelm or Halred or any great number of the various powerhouses that were, ever again. And the problem inherent in a system which lets people not worry about code but eventually, over years wind up a powerhouse, is that many people get good at not dying, to an extent, and when longevity gets rewarded in a care-free manner like that, those unrealistic numbers of hero-type characters start to condense in a small area.

Read: Superfriends.
Last edited by WorkerDrone on Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby krelm » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:37 am

Sparring and fighting was unrealistic and fun


Personally, I never found sitting in a room hitting another dude with a wooden weapon for 45 minutes to an hour fun. Unrealistic, sure, but not fun.

One time, I had a character who had really high block and really high con. Spars would take so long that he would heal while sparring. I think there was at least one spar that lasted an hour on that character, not even joking.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby Rivean » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:41 am

45 minutes to an hour? RL time? That's insane. I would go apeshit if my PC were in a clan where this sort of thing happened on a regular basis.

ETA: Back in ye olde time, 1 hour of sparring meant your PC was fighting for 4 hours IG time. Presumably in armor. The very idea causes my skin to blister.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby LuckyV » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:52 am

It happened for five minutes tops.

What Krelm describes is when you have a character with master defenses and elite armor. What he is saying is that you can't kill a master swordsman in elite armor with a wooden stick. Which IS realistic. Only because he has a heart hardcoded with twinkery does not mean that people should do this.

Let fighting (any kind) drain stamina. It would make con stat a more viable choice as a priority pick.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby LuckyV » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:58 am

Rivean: No matter the setup there will be superfriends. Second day of playtime in Utterby I already noticed who the superfriends-to-be are. So far I'm not wrong, and those are the only left standing combat chars, I think.

Superfriends are ancient SoI players who know the staff and the code. They are patient with their champions raising their skills with their OOC mates in safe environments. It does not matter how hard or easy the game will be, superfriends are inevitable.
Not all of us have that luxury.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby Letters » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:26 am

I think you've missed just what made the Superfriends thing so absurd when it was used as a negative term rather than a joke: there no OOC communication to speak of between the people who played those characters, whether on SoI or Atonement.

On SoI, it was used to refer to some of the inhabitants of Caolafon. It just happened that some powerful PCs gravitated there.

On Atonement, it referred to some Spacers on Atlas, along with a couple people from New Phoenix, a cyborg, and possibly a couple mutants. Oddly enough, because certain people assumed on an OOC level that all these characters were somehow working together, they opted to turn on them all in-game, consequently forcing together people who otherwise didn't all care much for each other.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby jdidds » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:44 am

A strike once command for bar boom brawlers. :-)
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby LuckyV » Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:04 am

Letters wrote:I think you've missed just what made the Superfriends thing so absurd when it was used as a negative term rather than a joke: there no OOC communication to speak of between the people who played those characters, whether on SoI or Atonement.

On SoI, it was used to refer to some of the inhabitants of Caolafon. It just happened that some powerful PCs gravitated there.

On Atonement, it referred to some Spacers on Atlas, along with a couple people from New Phoenix, a cyborg, and possibly a couple mutants. Oddly enough, because certain people assumed on an OOC level that all these characters were somehow working together, they opted to turn on them all in-game, consequently forcing together people who otherwise didn't all care much for each other.


I don't see why you would believe that I don't think Superfriends term is used in the negative aspect?

What I said was that no matter of game difficulty Superfriends will arise.

You confirmed it. Caolafon (Easy level) and both Atonement-Space and Atonement-Ground (Hard level) all had Superfriends.



----

Atonement was a survival game and as such it was really fun to have death imminent, also because it was a finite game. So you just enjoyed every moment of it, progress did not matter. You don't think about renewing your CV and applying for a new job and career when you actually expect to die tomorrow.

---


In current SoI(3?) though it is not the same. Atonement and SoI are different games.

Atonement has a story and you struggle to survive that story.

SoI has a theme and you flourish in it to create a story.


However because of the tumor (read: Atonement history):
SoI has a theme and you struggle in it to search for a story. Which does not exist.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby kestrel » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:36 am

LuckyV wrote:However because of the tumor (read: Atonement history):
SoI has a theme and you struggle in it to search for a story. Which does not exist.



I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with the general theme of your last post, but it's certainly very thought-provoking! Maybe I'm just being lazy but I still think that we could see major changes to fundamental game design before reaching BETA, so I'm not too worried about the gaps in the game right now.



LuckyV wrote:Superfriends are ancient SoI players who know the staff and the code. They are patient with their champions raising their skills with their OOC mates in safe environments. It does not matter how hard or easy the game will be, superfriends are inevitable.
Not all of us have that luxury.


Please point me to this so I can shamelessly partake! Seriously, I have never, ever seen coordinated efforts like this in Utterby by players to raise their (combat) skills, unless you're talking about buddies going out hunting or something (I'm assuming that happens plenty, although my PC doesn't hunt so it's just a wild guess). And to be frank, "patient" skill-raising by sticking to safe activities is going to leave your hypothetical PC woefully ill-equipped to deal with his PvP-mates when faced with characters that were pushed through the meat grinder and survived.

I'm having some trouble figuring out exactly what you're getting at, but if you're ultimately talking about there being a subset of players who know the code well, know how to min-max, know what to do to grind their way up as fast as possible -- yeah, absolutely, I think those players exist. I'm sure some of them are OOC friends. I'm sure some of them enjoy being in clans together periodically. But I've never felt at any sort of disadvantage compared to them. I've never felt taken advantage of OOCly, and I've never felt like it was an unfair playing field.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Superfriends-to-be that you're guessing at aren't anything of the sort. I have this image in my mind of you making a list and the admins checking them:

-The so-called "ranger" with the bad-ass armor and hood always up? His Sneak is Beginner, his combat skills are paltry, and he spends a lot of time getting BJs in the communal bunkroom.
-The Lieutenant in the Guard? Worse at combat than half the PCs beneath him, no skills above Familiar, player is too scared to take him into dangerous situations and get the combat skills higher.
-The swordswoman with the flowery emotes that acts like a veteran of a dozen bloody campaigns? She hasn't seen a visible skill boost since she commenced.

I mean, these are ridiculous, made-up examples, but I wouldn't be surprised if the reality were closer to my farce than your fear.

Just my two cents, though!
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby Tepes » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:44 am

I'm one of these so called Superfriends, and I don't keep on contact with anyone on an OOC level but some people I'm actually friends with.

There's nowhere safe to skill up. I'll tell you that -right- now. I've skilled up in particularly dangerous situations. Doing dumb things.

That being said, back on topic.

I wish there were more going on.
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Re: Shadows of Isildur Wishlist

Postby LuckyV » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:59 am

kestrel wrote:I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with the general theme of your last post, but it's certainly very thought-provoking! Maybe I'm just being lazy but I still think that we could see major changes to fundamental game design before reaching BETA, so I'm not too worried about the gaps in the game right now.


But this is the exact time to be worried! In alpha! When it's easiest to change the closest things to foundations of the game!


kestrel wrote:
LuckyV wrote:Superfriends are ancient SoI players who know the staff and the code. They are patient with their champions raising their skills with their OOC mates in safe environments. It does not matter how hard or easy the game will be, superfriends are inevitable.
Not all of us have that luxury.


Please point me to this so I can shamelessly partake! Seriously, I have never, ever seen coordinated efforts like this in Utterby by players to raise their (combat) skills, unless you're talking about buddies going out hunting or something (I'm assuming that happens plenty, although my PC doesn't hunt so it's just a wild guess). And to be frank, "patient" skill-raising by sticking to safe activities is going to leave your hypothetical PC woefully ill-equipped to deal with his PvP-mates when faced with characters that were pushed through the meat grinder and survived.

I'm having some trouble figuring out exactly what you're getting at, but if you're ultimately talking about there being a subset of players who know the code well, know how to min-max, know what to do to grind their way up as fast as possible -- yeah, absolutely, I think those players exist. I'm sure some of them are OOC friends. I'm sure some of them enjoy being in clans together periodically. But I've never felt at any sort of disadvantage compared to them. I've never felt taken advantage of OOCly, and I've never felt like it was an unfair playing field.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Superfriends-to-be that you're guessing at aren't anything of the sort. I have this image in my mind of you making a list and the admins checking them:

-The so-called "ranger" with the bad-ass armor and hood always up? His Sneak is Beginner, his combat skills are paltry, and he spends a lot of time getting BJs in the communal bunkroom.
-The Lieutenant in the Guard? Worse at combat than half the PCs beneath him, no skills above Familiar, player is too scared to take him into dangerous situations and get the combat skills higher.
-The swordswoman with the flowery emotes that acts like a veteran of a dozen bloody campaigns? She hasn't seen a visible skill boost since she commenced.

I mean, these are ridiculous, made-up examples, but I wouldn't be surprised if the reality were closer to my farce than your fear.

Just my two cents, though!



Actually that's nothing of the sort.

The real superfriend material(not the one who got there because of humongous race and skill starting boosts):
-Starts out IG avoiding social confrontations.
-Finds a reliable partner(SF2) on who SF1 can rely on to stay alive.
-Starts out sparring with SF2 and raising the skills a bit.
-Goes out to gather goods with SF2 and NB1, NB2 and NB3. Leading the patrol they quietly acquire the loot(hides) without sharing. No one really asked to share anyway. Since the patrol was out of 5 people all with relatively low skills, they safely raised them hitting on low level creeps.
-Continues to spar with SF2 and get their characters "bond". Strengthening their relationship for future. Skills rise.
-Goes out on another patrol with NB2, NB4 and NB5. (NB1 and NB3 is dead because they went out alone (SFs know better than to go out alone)). More resources gathered. NB2 wants to get some of it, gets a promise from SF1 that the goods will be traded and loot split. SF2 backs up this idea from a "neutral" position.
-The resources are traded into better armour.
-Sparring between SF1 and SF2.
-Safe resource gathering with fresh out of chargen NB#.
-The pbase begins to recognize SF1 and SF2 because they've already stuck around for a while, know their way around and are formidable in combat. This is the stage when they begin to interact with the pbase on more angles than before, but still avoid all conflicts.
-Continued sparring and resource gathering in groups.
-They become the only ones with good equipment.
-They become the de facto leaders.
-For SF1 none of this would have been possible (or as easy) without SF2.
-OOC communication allows players to set up RP stages and times. Keeping fun and keeping it safe. Surviving.
-Their knowledge of code and behind the curtain things allows them to gather resources safer, spar better (on right intervals).


And I also don't feel any kind of disadvantage against them. That's not my point.

My point is that there always will be players who will win the game. Who will make their characters survive and bloom. It does not mean that they bring a lot to the RP environment, they perhaps do and perhaps don't. But their characters will rise above.

So don't make the game harder and harder, wilderness more and more dangerous, equipment harder and harder to come-by. The only thing that it does is gives a bit more of a challenge for the SFs, but it still don't matter because the result is the same for them. No matter how you make it, they will get there, above the rest. And that's ok.

But it DOES punish a portion of the pbase. Players like me, who do not have a lot of time to play the game. Who do not have time to gather contacts IG who will provide better equipment. Players who do not have time to spar on regular intervals.

What it does for me is make the game restricting. You make a couple of characters and get them killed in the wilderness, just because you were impatient to wait for the Midnight RL time when the patrol heads out at IG dawn. So you left the dawn before that, when there were no players going out on a patrol. And died. And again.

Then you make a character, putting thought into it. Thinking: "Here. This one, I will play right. I wont play it to die. With this char I'm in for the long run." And you spend days looking around for someone to spar with but it's hard because you haven't opened your AIM in two years. On occasion you get a chance to take the position of NB2 in the safe patrol. But you were the 5th player to type hit wolf and end up yawning, waiting to get back to town.

Then you realize that your skills are still at novice and they will be for 2 RL months up front. So basically after FIBA World Cup ends you'll get your skills up to familiar.

That sudden realization of how f'ed your situation is makes you log in less. And less (More to the forums though). Thinking that maybe something will change and you'll get inspired to go at it again. Yeah, this weekend will be my skill twinking weekend.
Then you get a project at work and so now you know your weekend plans will be with your buddies excel, vba and powerpoint.

On Monday evening you log in back to SoI for some skill grinding and then it's still the same. Hard to find a sparring partner, unless you grit your teeth and with inner pain exclaim in the local tavern "Who wants to go for a spar?!".

score
skills
inv

think damn...
quit
LuckyV
Dwarf Recruit
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:43 am

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