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The 'hood' command.

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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby EltanimRas » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:00 am

MrDvAnt wrote:No offense, but seriously...you guys bitch a lot. Do you all complain this much irl?

I'm not sure exactly which posts are being referred to here, but, speaking strictly for myself:

I don't in the slightest mind hashing these sorts of topics (vNPC attitudes on sexuality, the best use of IG boards, the IC meaning of the hood command, etc.) out on the forums. If nothing else, I vastly prefer it to weirdly IC/OOC-blurring in-game confusion on the same themes.

If we actually reach some level of OOC consensus, so much the better, even if that consensus amounts to no more than: "The hood command may mean different things to different people and in different contexts. Please be aware of this and try not to poweremote someone else's PC as either clearly identifiable despite their hood or deliberately and obviously attempting to conceal their identity; give them a chance to make a clarifying emote before the RP goes too far -- and if your PC is the hooded one, be prepared to make such a clarifying emote when and if it seems necessary."
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby Vwest » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:40 pm

MrDvAnt wrote:No offense, but seriously...you guys bitch a lot. Do you all complain this much irl?


Weren't you just complaining about description lengths, of all things?

The subject of hoods comes up on every RPI on a regular basis and it always turns some people in to raging sociopaths, so it's better to just accept we'll be having this discussion again in a month or two.

In this case though, I'd imagine it's someone attempting to dodge in game consequences by turning it into a 'blame hoods and dumb people who use hoods' thing.

The nonsense on the in-game boards makes it look that way, at least. It's a little blatant.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby Hazgarn » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:51 pm

Vwest wrote:In this case though, I'd imagine it's someone attempting to dodge in game consequences by turning it into a 'blame hoods and dumb people who use hoods' thing.


Knowing the specific incident that inspired the current discussion, I'd say it's more along the lines of trying to avoid future accidents in which someone might actually be killed, and trying to discuss the most meaningful/least ridiculous way of doing so.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby Matt » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:59 pm

Put that you have your hood up in your motes or travel. If your hoods up codedly I'd just assume you're trying to hide your identity. Which you are... so... you can wear a hood to help from cold or to look cool etc etc and then you can wear a hood to conceal your features.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby tehkory » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:05 pm

Matt wrote:Put that you have your hood up in your motes or travel. If your hoods up codedly I'd just assume you're trying to hide your identity. Which you are... so... you can wear a hood to help from cold or to look cool etc etc and then you can wear a hood to conceal your features.


Icarus wrote:Folks can do whatever they want. But just realize that, at a distance, if you see a hooded figure moving through thick woods, like Mirkwood, it ain't exactly easy to see their flowing golden locks and say, "Yes, thar be a human."

Even staff have that issue sometimes.


I'd have to strongly go with Icarus here, and say sometimes it's raining, or cold, or windy, or bright out, or any of a dozen other reasons you might want to have your hood up. It conceals your features, which isn't motive. It's a consequence. Not every action is solely the sum of the coded consequence. Sometimes there's noncoded reasons to do it. Instantly going to the sole coded reason is pretty concerning from a roleplay perspective.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby Vwest » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:20 pm

tehkory wrote:Not every action is solely the sum of the coded consequence. Sometimes there's noncoded reasons to do it. Instantly going to the sole coded reason is pretty concerning from a roleplay perspective.


^ that
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby RiderOnTheStorm » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:21 pm

You're relying on a coded command, which has glaring side-effects ,for something that can be easily RPd without the coded command.

..and then complaining about other people's rp. What. :lol:

If it is raining, rp your hood being up, If you codedly are disguised, I'm going to assume you are an orcish assassin and set you on fire.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby tehkory » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:32 pm

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:You're relying on a coded command, which has glaring side-effects ,for something that can be easily RPd without the coded command.

..and then complaining about other people's rp. What. :lol:

If it is raining, rp your hood being up, If you codedly are disguised, I'm going to assume you are an orcish assassin and set you on fire.


Go reread Icarus's post.

Except that the side-effects, which should matter, can't be easily RPed without the command. Sometimes I put my hood up. This can disguise my identity. That doesn't mean that's my intent.

The vagarity of this act doesn't disguise the fact that at three hundred meeters away, you going "OH THAT GUY WITH HIS HOOD UP IS AN ORCISH ASSASSIN LEMME LIGHT HIM UP" is poor, -1RPP roleplay that's utterly code-focused and twinkish as hell. It's awful, and doesn't have a place in SoI.


ETA: Sure, you can 'easily' RP having your hood up. And we can 'easily' RP barfights, and we can 'easily' RP sparring, and we can 'easily' RP fights, and weapons and healing and walking around. We can easily RP all sorts of things, without giving in to the consequences and reality of these things. I can easily RP having my hood up so you can still see who and what I am, as long as I'm 0-3 rooms away. But the code exists. And it -should- be used, and you -should- play out the confusing consequences of seeing someone with their hood up at maximum range of a longbow or even a crossbow. And it shouldn't be surprising that -individual- people are hard to tell from goblins or orcs at that distance.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby Rivean » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:43 pm

Also, for those of you who may be logic impaired, let me just reiterate, from the sidelines here, that the following inequality applies most stridently here:

"It is possible that that person way over there may be an orc" != "That person is definitely an orc and therefore I should shoot it."

ETA: Also, for the code lingo impaired "!=" means "not equal to".
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby RiderOnTheStorm » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:46 pm

Why do you keep harping on this oh my God maximum longbow range noooo nonsense? It has nothing to do with the conversation. It's really disingenuous of you to say the least. The big problem here is that a cloaked person looks the same across the bar as they do 3 rooms away. Because the command represents way more than having your hood up.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby tehkory » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:50 pm

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:Why do you keep harping on this oh my God maximum longbow range noooo nonsense? It has nothing to do with the conversation. A cloaked person looks the same across the bar as they do 3 rooms away.


If you're yelling about being cloaked in bars, look(which shows dmotes) and study have been brought up regularly, trumping any argument there. This conversation is not about people with hoods up in bars. Any argument there's already been dealt with and set to the side, obviously. I'm 'harping' about maximum distance because this is about people at significant distances away, not people within the same room. You have coded measures to deal with those.

You've made the conversation about 'is that an orc or not' and 'is that person trying to intentionally hide their identity, and may I treat them that way.' Hence we discuss those things. Not whether or not I can identify Joebob at the Bar, because you have the ability to handle that.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby EltanimRas » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:51 pm

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:A cloaked person looks the same across the bar as they do 3 rooms away.

If you're assuming the cloaked person across the bar from you is an orcish assassin and 'setting them on fire', that's a different problem?

If someone's in the bar with you -- or even in the same outdoors room -- you can see their eq list (and their dmote, if any, as Kory points out). You can talk to them. You can RP with them. You don't have to assume anything.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby RiderOnTheStorm » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:56 pm

tehkory wrote:
RiderOnTheStorm wrote:Why do you keep harping on this oh my God maximum longbow range noooo nonsense? It has nothing to do with the conversation. A cloaked person looks the same across the bar as they do 3 rooms away.


If you're yelling about being cloaked in bars, look(which shows dmotes) and study have been brought up regularly, trumping any argument there. This conversation is not about people with hoods up in bars. Any argument there's already been dealt with and set to the side, obviously. I'm 'harping' about maximum distance because this is about people at significant distances away, not people within the same room. You have coded measures to deal with those.

You've made the conversation about 'is that an orc or not' and 'is that person trying to intentionally hide their identity, and may I treat them that way.' Hence we discuss those things. Not whether or not I can identify Joebob at the Bar, because you have the ability to handle that.


No, the conversation is about 'this command is retarded'.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby Rivean » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:57 pm

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:Why do you keep harping on this oh my God maximum longbow range noooo nonsense? It has nothing to do with the conversation. It's really disingenuous of you to say the least. The big problem here is that a cloaked person looks the same across the bar as they do 3 rooms away. Because the command represents way more than having your hood up.


Nevertheless, the same logic applies. Whereby:

a) It does not logically follow that since the CODE (which is OOC) necessitates that hooded people have their descs hidden that you should therefore make an IC decision to have your character assume that everybody that's hooded is expressly hiding something. That's rather ridiculous.

b) It does not logically follow that just because you cannot see someone's features, even from three feet away, that they must therefore be orcs, goblins, or otherwise a threat to your person. ESPECIALLY if the hooded person happens to be at that moment peacefully seated in a bar full of other people.

Also, an acquaintance with the STUDY command, unless it's been lost in this latest installment of the game, would solve your short range recognition problems. Or you know, you could try talking to people before setting them on fire.

Also x2, 'This command is retarded' is an OOC issue. Please don't bring it IC by having your PC do stupid shit.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby EltanimRas » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:18 pm

Rivean wrote:Also x2, 'This command is retarded' is an OOC issue. Please don't bring it IC by having your PC do stupid shit.

Eh, the code is wonky. It's impossible for a PC with a raised hood to be simultaneously both easily (without 'look', 'study', or conversation) recognizable in the bar and difficult to identify from a distance.

Anyone who wants to raise their PC's hood (in a casual, weather-proofing way) is forced to choose between either (a) being more recognizable than they should at a distance or (b) being less recognizable than they should up close.

Wonky code creates IC issues; we have to work around them as best we can. We have to recognize that other players are working around them as best they can, and that their choices may differ from ours.

Code: Select all
emote squints across the bar at ~hooded.

He emotes turning away, hunching over, and tugging his hood lower? Great, I can start my suspicious/confrontational/whatever RP.

He emotes not noticing my attention, continuing about his business as before? Awesome, I now feel free to use the 'study' command.

He emotes looking in my direction, revealing the face of Jim-Bob, the brown-haired, blue-eyed man? Fantastic. I can RP recognizing him as normal. "Hey Jim-Bob, whatcha doin' with your hood up indoors?"
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby soiacc » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:20 pm

Wasn't there a command in Atonement where you could be hooded/masked and reveal yourself? Still getting the coded benefit of the protectiveness part without being unidentifiable?
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby Holmes » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:40 pm

soiacc wrote:Wasn't there a command in Atonement where you could be hooded/masked and reveal yourself? Still getting the coded benefit of the protectiveness part without being unidentifiable?


Being hooded/masked doesn't give you any protectiveness.

You're thinking of the fact that we made meshes wearable around the throat, instead of just the face.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby soiacc » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:54 pm

Oh, right. Well, as to the hooded discussion. I primarily played in Amdir and they had a no hoods/mask policy within the walls, but hoods outside were fine. I would also support something like Armageddon's hood code, where if you look at someone, you see their full desc, but their sdesc remains something like the short, hooded figure or whatever.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby MrDvAnt » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:06 pm

Vwest wrote:
MrDvAnt wrote:No offense, but seriously...you guys bitch a lot. Do you all complain this much irl?


Weren't you just complaining about description lengths, of all things?

The subject of hoods comes up on every RPI on a regular basis and it always turns some people in to raging sociopaths, so it's better to just accept we'll be having this discussion again in a month or two.

In this case though, I'd imagine it's someone attempting to dodge in game consequences by turning it into a 'blame hoods and dumb people who use hoods' thing.

The nonsense on the in-game boards makes it look that way, at least. It's a little blatant.



Not really. Just commenting really cause I looked at someone and two pages scrolled by. I really don't care, as long as people don't expect me to sit there reading their description while conversation scrolls on. :p
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby MrDvAnt » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:07 pm

EltanimRas wrote:
MrDvAnt wrote:No offense, but seriously...you guys bitch a lot. Do you all complain this much irl?

I'm not sure exactly which posts are being referred to here, but, speaking strictly for myself:

I don't in the slightest mind hashing these sorts of topics (vNPC attitudes on sexuality, the best use of IG boards, the IC meaning of the hood command, etc.) out on the forums. If nothing else, I vastly prefer it to weirdly IC/OOC-blurring in-game confusion on the same themes.

If we actually reach some level of OOC consensus, so much the better, even if that consensus amounts to no more than: "The hood command may mean different things to different people and in different contexts. Please be aware of this and try not to poweremote someone else's PC as either clearly identifiable despite their hood or deliberately and obviously attempting to conceal their identity; give them a chance to make a clarifying emote before the RP goes too far -- and if your PC is the hooded one, be prepared to make such a clarifying emote when and if it seems necessary."


All of them really, not just this thread. Carry on and don't take it personally, I was really just observing that people seem to complain about -everything-. I personally like the option to hide my features with hoods. I don't get the problem.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby Onasaki » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:05 pm

I think I'm lost as to what this topic is about.

Is it about the hood command, which is an old command that's existed since probably Harshlands to raise one's hood in order to conceal their general features? Or is this about descriptions being ungodly long?

Either or, I don't think this is up for a major discussion. The hood command is an essential, and realistic command in which it allows one to raise one's hood. Either for sneaky purposes, or just for the hell of it.

Long look descriptions are a thing that people tend to write, because they like to write. There is no limit on the level, nor extent a description can go. While longer, say, 6-7 paragraph descriptions are probably inordinately long, I don't think there's a rule against them.

Some people actually do read them, and I've personally read a couple longer ones, and some of them are pretty awesome.

So, I don't know what this discussion is about anymore, but I feel like it might be getting out of hand. Not super bad, or anything, but this discussion seems to be going into lengths it probably didn't need too.

I've reported the hood bug, where it doesn't allow you to raise your hood no matter where you wear the cloak, or whatnot. (I seem to be the only one affected, thus far, though I'm unsure of that) But at the same time, I don't think it's going to be removed, maybe tweaked, or adjusted. But not removed, as it's a very nifty code that I enjoy when MUDs have them implimented.

If it's bugged, then it needs to be fixed, if it's not, then I need to be fixed. If it's neither, then I need medication, probably.

At any rate, I think this discussion should find a topic and stick to it. Hoods, or Descriptions.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby krelm » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:22 pm

The reason some cloaks don't have hoods is because they weren't built with the 'mask' flag, which is what allows cloaks to be hooded.

It's an easy fix, but even if it was fixed, all the non-hooded cloaks IG still wouldn't have hoods, you'd have to get brand new instances loaded, and no admin has the time to replace hundreds of cloaks just because some of them don't allow people to use the hood command.

They do, however, RPly have hoods, and people can RP using them, which is what the core discussion of this thread has been about.

The most viable argument I've seen against having all cloaks be non-hooded was Kory's, for the record-- sure, you can RP it, but if the command is there, why not use it?
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby MrDvAnt » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:13 pm

Onasaki wrote:I think I'm lost as to what this topic is about.

Is it about the hood command, which is an old command that's existed since probably Harshlands to raise one's hood in order to conceal their general features? Or is this about descriptions being ungodly long?

Either or, I don't think this is up for a major discussion. The hood command is an essential, and realistic command in which it allows one to raise one's hood. Either for sneaky purposes, or just for the hell of it.

Long look descriptions are a thing that people tend to write, because they like to write. There is no limit on the level, nor extent a description can go. While longer, say, 6-7 paragraph descriptions are probably inordinately long, I don't think there's a rule against them.

Some people actually do read them, and I've personally read a couple longer ones, and some of them are pretty awesome.

So, I don't know what this discussion is about anymore, but I feel like it might be getting out of hand. Not super bad, or anything, but this discussion seems to be going into lengths it probably didn't need too.

I've reported the hood bug, where it doesn't allow you to raise your hood no matter where you wear the cloak, or whatnot. (I seem to be the only one affected, thus far, though I'm unsure of that) But at the same time, I don't think it's going to be removed, maybe tweaked, or adjusted. But not removed, as it's a very nifty code that I enjoy when MUDs have them implimented.

If it's bugged, then it needs to be fixed, if it's not, then I need to be fixed. If it's neither, then I need medication, probably.

At any rate, I think this discussion should find a topic and stick to it. Hoods, or Descriptions.


I am too honestly. The only reason desc length came up is because I made a comment about how people complain a lot and they asked about my ldesc length comment, so I was explaining it. The main topic is hoods, which I'm not sure why are a problem. I should probably read through and try to figure it out since I'm taking the time to post, but I don't want to. I like the option to raise a hood and be obfuscated. Apparently it's now bad RP or something for some reason. I dunno.
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby Onasaki » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:42 am

I think I was brought up to speed on this discussion.

I don't think this is about hoods, or whether or not they should be removed a feature. But really, it's whether or not you should shoot hooded people, due to potential orc status.

I'd say no, when you can easily ask someone to raise or lower their hood if you feel threatened. Especially guardsman, considering their job.
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One's the truth and one's a lie
Which one's which I cannot tell
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Re: The 'hood' command.

Postby MrDvAnt » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:15 am

Which comes right back around to everyone's favorite, The Behaviour of Goodlie Folke.

The good side shouldn't be even remotely willing to accidentally shoot another human just because they are wearing a hood. Steps should be take to determine the identity beneath the hood.
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