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Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby Letters » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:39 am

Heartily agree with the 'you still feel like you're playing Atonement' sentiment. Everything about it, particularly the constant need to scrounge and scrape, and the drive to go kill all the things, even when there's no pressing need to kill all the things, and scavenging isn't even a thing to speak of any more, iron notwithstanding.

And the setting's far more like Atonement's than old SoI - poverty, and an economy fueled by and geared towards war. Do any crafters that aren't weapon smiths, armourers or cooks - or directly supporting one of those - actually have any relevance to the player-base?

Also a strong lingering sense of might makes right.

Also, it's explicitly stated that people are in Utterby for the money.

Going to post up a thread on all that later on.
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby Jeshin » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:39 am

I imagine part of the shallow setting / player culture with little NPC influence is due to ALPHA and there being no uniform docs yet.
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby Letters » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:44 am

Jeshin wrote:I imagine part of the shallow setting / player culture with little NPC influence is due to ALPHA and there being no uniform docs yet.


You're coming primarily from Armageddon, I think, so this really warrants saying: the community here is one that leans very heavily towards what they have been shown, and not what they have been told, to adapt that particular phrase. I think that's pretty fair to say.

And even in Armageddon, there's often a strong sense of disconnect between the documentation and IC realities. Just here, and ever since Atonement, documentation has been used as a sketchy guideline at best (and Parallel, where I'm definitely somewhat to blame for homogeneity between clans :? ).
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby Jeshin » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:48 am

That is bad game design on Armageddon's part. Proper documentation + matching the gameworld to that documentation makes a happy game. But yes I am from Armageddon with 2 weeks of Parallel under my belt.
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby LuckyV » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:25 am

Throttle and Letters said what I dared not to say.
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby Stoneturtle » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:29 am

It strongly feels like Atonement more than SoI to me too. I'm hoping it will change as we move through Alpha.
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby Croaker » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:09 pm

I know it sounds absolutely ridiculous, and I know I'm always harping about SOI needing to be more in line with canon, but if I were dictator for the day I'd have us match Tolkien's timeline right up until the events of the Hobbit...and then I'd diverge.


And then promptly get smashed by the Tolkien Estate.
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby Songweaver » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:33 pm

<counter-rant>

Which part of Atonement is SOI3 like, exactly?

- Atonement ALPHA? Where there was no "safe place", and the PCs didn't even have memories?

- Atonement BETA? Which was all about gang/family politics/war in a post-apocalyptic setting and you were likely to be shot and murdered in town over your shoes?

- Atonement GAMMA? Which was basically Atonement ALPHA redux, with more resources, memories, some new plots and more expanded crafting?

- Atonement OMEGA? Which was basically no mobs (until the finale), pitting players vs each other and vs weather/the environment with a heavy focus on excavating, exploring and uncovering the secrets of Mars?

And which Old SOI sphere are you trying to hold it up to as an ideal, since most of them were like their own unique games?

- SOI Northlands, which had Moria (orc town) and Angost (poor, rustic melting pot human town all about making money off of iron)? Spoiler for later in this post: Absolutely. Of course it's like Northlands, but Northlands was also incredibly combat centric and not at all about playing house and getting wealthy. Northlands was many of the same things that Letters and a couple others are complaining about above.

- SOI The Battalions, which was all about war and a war economy?

- SOI Old Osgiliath, which had a human sphere and an orc sphere with military groups (and guards) who basically took charge of most things, and the economy was again largely focused on war?

- SOI Minas Tirith/Ithilien, which was basically safe zone with unlimited resources for people to craft and play house without too much risk? That seems to be what the detractors above want, though I heartily doubt that this is majority opinion.

- SOI FJ? Let's not even go there.

- SOI Mordor/Tur Edendor/Mordor 2&3? Well, really, those were evil spheres that included social interactions beyond just orcs.


No. No. C'mon.

SOI right now is most similar to Northlands, by far and large. It's nothing like any of the phases of Atonement (though perhaps it's most akin to Atonement BETA compared to the others, though there are just some incredible differences there too). But it's also most definitely its own thing that is working to find its unique voice and develop over time.

Maybe it's just the fact that it's largely the Atonement players playing here that makes it seem like Atonement. Or maybe it's the fact that it's the Atonement Engine that SOI is using.

Of all of the many settings above, and as much as I loved Atonement in the incarnations of it that I created and ran, Northlands was my favorite and (IMO) the best. And not to say that Utterby/Vadok Mal are exactly like Angost/Moria, but it's really the closest comparison out of all of the RPI/spheres that I can think of.

IMO, these "this new version of SOI is just like Atonement and I don't like it" rants are reactive and not thorough. Try stepping outside yourself to see how you can make it different. Try being inspired by inspiring the staff and others.

Until I see people running around Utterby shooting each other to death with guns, the orc sphere dies, outer space bugs start infecting people and turning them into parasitic zombies and everyone's scavenging ice cream to eat en masse for survival ... I'm just not buying it.

ETA TL;DR ... SOI3 is nothing like Atonement in terms of setting or roleplay, beyond sharing much of the same playerbase and the same engine (which means similar code and activities to an extent). Saying so over and over again is insulting to those who've worked on both (or either) games, completely ignores the settings and roleplay (which is why we are all here, right?) ... and quite frankly, is annoying the hell out of me.

Let SOI3 be whatever it is that it's going to become, and try to encourage it in the ways that are important to you with POSITIVITY and your own effort. All of this forum whining is really tiring.

</counter-rant>
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby toofast » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:12 pm

I agree completely with Songweaver. Damn, I wish it felt more like Atonement. I'd prefer post-apoc/sci-fi over fantasy any day, but here I am "stuck" with SoI, haha. To add on top of that, this doesn't feel anything like Atonement to me and I didn't play 'original' SoI... (SoI original or SoI 2.0 or whatever else). I'd venture to say that the players who say Utterby feels like Atonement (and then go on to say that they disliked Atonement) just think that Utterby doesn't feel like old SoI (specifically Minas Tirith).
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby soiacc » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:20 pm

I don't think it's wrong to want to have a safer sort of area for people who like to craft and enjoy social rp. You need those sort of characters to balance out the combat characters. As it is now, people are worried more about buying weapons and armor than anything else, and that leaves the other crafters, as someone pointed out, obsolete. I've played both combat and crafter types and I like having the option. After too much combat, crafting becomes relaxing and then after too much crafting, combat becomes exciting again. Besides, if characters don't have anyone to defend, what's the point? With townfolk you have people to buy furniture, clothing (combat chars tend to wear their armor forever and why waste coin on clothes if they don't give any advantage?) and all the cups (so many cups...) .
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby someguy » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:38 pm

The crafter hub needs to figure out what's going on OOCly for people to start buying non-combat stuff. Most of the economy is based on hunting hides for armor/weapons because that's what most of the players are able to do. The crafters who don't make armor/weapons don't have people to sell to because the people who can make money want armor/weapons. There isn't a lot of purpose in decorating your imaginary shack with a chair.
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby hobbitboots » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:26 pm

I'd love to be able to buy new clothes and some furniture, except:

I don't have anywhere to put it.
There doesn't seem to be anyone selling it.
And, my income is very low which makes me hesitant to spend money.

My prediction? Once player housing is set up and the lodge is fully running, the market for non-combat pcs is going to open up.
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby MrT2G » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:33 pm

I think everyone may be poor now, but give it a couple months and there will become a very structured society with the haves and the have-nots.

It is Alpha, give things time to grow organically.
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby Hazgarn » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:40 pm

Two things I think are really going to open up the economy into something interesting (and hopefully realistic):

1. Housing, as has already been said, because most people won't buy things if they have no place to keep them safe.

And:

2. Farming/Gardening.

Right now, the only people really able to "make it" are hunters, who go out and gank animals for meat and pelts and the crafters who supply armor and weapons to hunters of meat and pelts.

Once Farming and Gardening are developed, these skills will provide now-expensive materials to the clothiers, as well as a source of income viable to the less-combat-minded/more-social-oriented players and characters who want no part of the endless cycle of animal gankage.
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby LuckyV » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:48 am

Songweaver wrote:Lotsa good stuff


Songweaver, you're saying why the games are different, and yes they are different.
But like I said they also feel the same and Throttle and Letters wrote very well why they actually do feel the same.


In other words:
I would love to have ARPI code, Tolkien theme and SoI gameplay.
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby Stoneturtle » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:01 pm

Songweaver, let me answer from my point of view. First of all, it's a statement of opinion, not a criticism, and shouldn't be taken that way. I liked Atonement until the end, which just didn't suit what I think is fun, which should be everyone's criteria for whether they play a game!

I started saying it felt more like Atonement than SoI a couple of days after I got off the barge, and it still does, to me.

To answer your question, the period of Atonement it feels most like to me is when we were moved to the spaceship to leave the moon because the town was infected by deadly monsters from the sky. You weren't involved with the game at that time, I believe.

The reasons it feels like Atonement to me are (I play in Utterby) :

1. It's basically necessary to belong to a clan. Especially for crafters. There seem to be a lot of rules about crafters and what they can do. I understand why, I'm just not sure it's fun.
2. Going outside at all is very lethal and seems to need large parties, organization, planning. Lots of people are dying every day it seems!
(Items 1&2, I'm hoping this is just to keep things under control because it's Alpha and they don't need everyone going off in whatever direction they want to, and that the game will be more amenable to individual development and exploration later.)
4. There's no safe-ish place for the casual hunter/forager to wander around doing low-level stuff. (There is however a place for fishermen to fish in safety, which confuses me when I think of any argument against having a place for a hunter to pop a rabbit or a forager to pick up roots.) There's not much opportunity for you to prepare your PC for a level of danger far outside his abilities to handle.
5. Staff opinions about the lethality of the rooms outside the main area don't match with how players view it. I'm just going off what I hear in-game and read on the forums. I remember the same discussions from the other forums.
6. There's something else but I'm having trouble describing it, and it's the main thing of all that feels like Atonement. It's the attitude the PCs exhibit, the way they treat each other. It's like they see the other guy as just paste walking. I sit and watch this all the time, watching them sniping at each other and calling names, picking fights. I remember being surprised when I joined my first clan on Atonement and walked through the halls, saying hello to six people in a row without one of them responding in any way. I came to understand that. Maybe Utterby dwellers would feel the same way Atonement PCs did, I'm not saying they wouldn't, especially with the death rate what it is. But is the biggest thing that makes the game feel more like Atonement than SoI to me.
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby radioactivejesus » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:31 pm

Stoneturtle wrote:when I joined my first clan on Atonement and walked through the halls, saying hello to six people in a row without one of them responding in any way. I came to understand that. Maybe Utterby dwellers would feel the same way Atonement PCs did, I'm not saying they wouldn't, especially with the death rate what it is. But is the biggest thing that makes the game feel more like Atonement than SoI to me.

that's not roleplaying a character being an uncaring jerk. That's just the player being a lazy Rper. People who walk straight past someone emoting at them are the worst
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby Songweaver » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:34 pm

LuckyV/Stoneturtle:

I, too, play in Utterby and just have a different perspective.

The wilderness just outside of town is largely safe, unless orcs make it that far to attack. The worst thing you'll see there (besides the random giant boaring yesterday that was a building mistake now fixed) is a small three-pack of wolves that really aren't too hard to avoid (or kill). The boar aren't even aggressive like they were in old SOI. IMO, the area outside of town is as safe as Ithilien was (and much safer than Northlands). Now, if you go delving beyond the river, the difficulty and danger notches up considerably. IMO, Northlands was more dangerous; the lack of good armor right now is the only reason why people are wiping when they stray into the hard areas.

You didn't have to join an NPC-run clan in Atonement on the ships or Mars. There are viable independents in Utterby now (two different groups doing it). Having been a part of one of these groups and managing what I consider to be success, it just takes some proactivity and patience.

The one point that I will agree with you on is the bickering. IMO, this is a result of forcing players that will never see eye-to-eye (and may have old, bad blood) to play together by not having enough options for new characters. My understanding is that the staff is working on this currently. Options are good. More options

I understand how you feel, and I do not think that either of you were admonishing Atonement or SOI3's design, but others have and do constantly. Everyone wants a bit of a different game. Old SOI was many games all rolled into one, and IMO, this game is most like Northlands (but with worse equipment and less scary threats).

In the end, proactivity, player immersion and players setting the example for other players are the only way to evolve the roleplay. The admins can help by offering more options, but that's going to take time and I think folks should accept that.

I'm all about constructive criticism. I try to give it myself. Not all about unconstructive cricitism, though, and that's what I'm sick of seeing from the same people, over and over. It comes off as entitlement to me, and I just don't like it.
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby Rivean » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:01 pm

Also, from the amount of fond reminiscing about SOI2, it makes me wonder how dark is the shade on those rose tinted glasses. Memory seems to be a fickle thing.

Considering all the misadventures that this game has taken in the past, I would to my fellow old-timers cautiously suggest that they take a more realistic view and accept that firstly, there is no such thing as a perfect game when there are so many opinions to judge it by, and secondly, that the past posed at least as many problems as the present currently seems to - except that the present incarnation is a work in progress.

Point out, I invite you, what you feel are shortcomings. But let's reserve judgement on our ability to overcome said shortcomings till we're at least out of Alpha, yes?
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby LuckyV » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:29 pm

Definitely rose-tinted glasses is something that's hard to avoid and all we can do is try and remind each other of how it actually was, viewing it from different points.


As an example. I agree with Stoneturtle that SoI3 feels like Atonement, but I disagree with each and every one of the Whys.


1. Huh? Do you even remember guilds? You had to scrounge up 0.5k/1k/2k entrance fee to join as an apprentice of a certain particular guild.
I loved this. It made crafters actual crafters.
I don't like the current gameplay where every character is a crafter unless he started out with 4 skills to be a fighter, and even then he's scrounging for materials.
The constant drive for materials is exhausting to no end. Often it's players against the game and thus it just makes you want to create a bot which would play the game safer for you.


2. It always was like this everywhere. Only we used to have Anorien. The only thing which is different and which I hate is the speed at which mobs chase you. It's extremely difficult to flee.
It used to be that you can flee and you'll die if you get lost or you bump into a few more aggro mobs. But you still needed to head out with larger groups so you can push through.
I loved that.
Now you don't need more mobs. They all have heroic scan skills and legendary agility. If you lost a fight, you lost it. Unless you twink with the river to escape it. This I don't like.


3. MIA?

4. Well there is no Anorien, but the closest area is relatively safe. On the other hand there's no Poaching law like there used to be.


5. Doesn't have much to do with anything.

6. This has nothing to do with the players. It's the gameplay mechanics. The Arms race. People care less about roleplay because there's so much more focus on getting them goods. In the Vanguard or the Battalions you had food and equipment set for you. Your focus was nearly all on RP.
Then you had the Farm east of the gates which had more work to get their own food and goods, but you still only needed a cook and some hunting. You didn't need the clan to have every aspect of crafting covered like now.









I keep thinking that certain things in old SoI did humongous harm. Which still has it's mark now. Like the Haradrim and their equipment, which went overboard.

Staff and certain players became afraid of wealth. The heck is that about? How many players did you see create average joes? Average looking, nothing special? Even if you seen one, the guy didn't make him at the start of the game, he made it later because he felt that would look special.

The players create beautiful or strong looking women characters and strong or roguish looking male characters. Sometimes they make horribly scarred or one-eyed characters to make them stand-out.





What does that say to you?
People are not looking for real life hardships. For doing chores so that they survive. If you force players to play against the game that is what they will do, but they will play less and less with each other.
Atonement had it. But it also had a linear strong storyline to make the game enjoyable when forcing players to play against the game.

I want my old SoI gameplay, Tolkien theme and ARPI code...
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby LuckyV » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:44 pm

To add to my point:


toofast @ Re: Available IC Player Roles, Courtesy of Pallando wrote:A mix of combat and resource extraction.

Some examples:

bludgeon sole-wield woodcraft forage butchery

bludgeon sole-wield longbow butchery

polearm longblade sole-wield dual-wield

The more resources that get brought in, the more armor/weapons can be produced. The more quality armor/weapons, the less deaths and increased control over the surrounding wilderness, which will eventually help bring balance to the game, along with rehauled crafts and housing from the staff.
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby EltanimRas » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:22 am

LuckyV wrote:1. Huh? Do you even remember guilds? You had to scrounge up 0.5k/1k/2k entrance fee to join as an apprentice of a certain particular guild.

I remember, "If there's a PC master, your would-be apprentice PC can only be apprenticed to them. If they hate your character, have too many apprentices already, or live in a time zone opposite yours, well, all the vNPC masters hate you too. Tough luck."

LuckyV wrote:4. Well there is no Anorien, but the closest area is relatively safe. On the other hand there's no Poaching law like there used to be.

I swear the area outside the old Angost gate used to be perfectly safe if you (a) checked the boards for news of any bears-of-unusual-size before heading out and (b) had decent scan. I remember doing lots and lots of lumber-jacking with no weaponskill. In a dress.

[Note: Neither of these comments is intended to imply a suggestion of any sort for the current game.]
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby Hazgarn » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:36 pm

EltanimRas wrote:I remember doing lots and lots of lumber-jacking with no weaponskill. In a dress.

[Note: Neither of these comments is intended to imply a suggestion of any sort for the current game.]


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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby bjg2k1us » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:57 am

So, the Mercy thread got me thinking about one of the fundamental difficulties of SOI: PvP. The setting and theme of SOI as we've seen it till now creates several problems for the staff and community of players whenever they're thrown into conflift with each other.

First, when you put Orcs into the mix, it becomes extremely difficult to have PvP encounters that aren't ICly and OOCly geared to end with one side or the other wiped out. And ironically, it's the 'good' human side that always has the hardest time with this, because there's really no motivation whatsoever to capture or, even worse, release a bunch of psychopaths that only want to enslave or eat you. It happens, occasionally, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

Second, war. War as a setting legitimizes that same mindset even when you don't have Always Evil Orcs as the enemy. It's a little better, but in Middle-Earth we tend to see one side as Mordor, or Dol Guldur... a side that can't be reasoned or negotiated with, except by the truly naive. The Good side can make that mistake, on occasion, but it again has to be the exception rather than the rule.

War also creates a problem of scale. War means you need to have Armies and Battles, and Ranks and Structure, and a lot of other things that tend to minimize players as an entity. Private Doe died? Nothing in the grand scale of things (though of course his friends will briefly mourn him). Platoon Alpha got wiped out? A minor inconvenience for the General (but a nightmare for staff and players alike).

Now, you can incentivize players with promises of RPP, or give standing orders to the grunts, or come up with other ways of masking the problem, but it doesn't change the underlying theme: Wars are meant for killing, and wars in RPIs mean a lot of dead players. On the one hand, we hold up permadeath as the great ideal, and admins needle the players nonstop about just how badly they're going to massacre them all - and then we try to come up with as many artificial constructs like RoE or the proposed Mercy command to prevent needless player death, because in the end we all realize that it's actually really, really bad for the game.

And yet there's no getting away from it when the setting itself is designed to promote it.


------------------------------------


So that drove me back to this thread, and in particular to one of the first suggestions, Old Arnor. Now, as proposed, it suffers from the same problems: War, Orcs, and Scale. But with a few tweaks, it could actually be the first SOI setting to promote conflict without wanton slaughter, and the ever-so-elusive Shades of Grey (NOT THOSE ONES, LADIES) that Minas Tirith and Osgiliath could never really tolerate.

How? Turn back the clock, just a bit.

It's year 1250 of the Third Age. All three kingdoms are still legitimate, and all in a state of rivalry without being in open war. All three want, as their goal, to claim and hold Amon Sul (Weathertop) along with the Palantir there, and eventually use that advantage to unify Arnor again under their rule. Arthedain has the Heir of Isildur, Cardolan has the most wealth (let's say), and Rhuadur has the numbers in the form of support from the Hill Tribes, who haven't yet taken over. Each king relies on a handful of noble houses, who of course all have their own long-term goals. The conflict between the realms and houses is largely political, but with frequent skirmishes taking place between small but daring parties - yet rarely ending in bloodshed.

Why? Because Kinslaying is still a Bad Thing (though to what degree may vary slightly depending on the kingdom), and not one of the three powers wants this to degenerate into a war that would curse the victors as Kinslayers for all time... yet. Angmar, unfortunately, is being founded in secrecy - not yet as a direct threat, still with 50 years before the Wichking declares himself and starts maneuvering the usurping of Rhuadur's throne and 100 years before he decides the time is right to start a war that will set Eriador on fire...

So for the time being, you can have politics and intrigue built into the setting, you can have PCs that are out for glory, money, and power without being Eeeeevil; and you can have PvP that can rely on Combat-by-Champion, or till one side yields, or even taking hostages for ransom without the Orc problem. And since Angmar is just starting to spin its wheels, you can also have the occasional admin-sponsored bloodfest (win or lose!) in the form of an orc and/or troll raid, without worrying that you're killing someone's carefully crafted PC or crippling a clan and making weeks worth of work for the staff. Unless, of course, you lose.

-----------------------------


Anyways. I know months and months of work have gone into Laketown RPI, and we haven't even made it there yet. Just my idle thoughts on what SOI might be if it went a different route, someday, maybe. I still want to play in Laketown, too. ;)
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Re: Problems with Lake-Town, and Alternative Settings

Postby Fulgrim » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:18 pm

These problems will become increasingly less prevalent when we arrive at Laketown for a variety of reasons, primary among them being that PVP between spheres will be rarer, still possible on player's own initiative but more difficult because of the larger game world. And it will largely fall into the realm of staff discretion, if and should they decide to set one side upon the other for any reason they think of in particular, albeit legitimate.

This is what I've observed, if the orc sphere remains where it is and the human sphere shifts in entirety to Laketown. There's obviously room for changes there and I could be completely wrong on some level, but I see the game resolving issues of "needless deaths" through sheer rarity that such would ever occur, through game balance and game scope both. Or a light will be casted on those deaths through plot, making them seem not-so-needless after all.

ETA: You have to keep in mind, the reason for the staff picking Laketown and this period in particular isn't simply because of the hype the movies have brought, it isn't such a petty reason as that, but because of how unexplored the concept seems to be, and the wide variety of races, roles and plot opportunities being situated in Laketown and Mirkwood provides us.

Laketown RPI was the name of the game because it would have Elves, it would have Orcs, it would have Dwarves and humans of all shapes and sizes, it would have spiders it would have wargs, it would have specters and swords.

There's a huge rift, a giant disconnect, from that vision and the disputes between a bunch of Arnorian Dúnedain and each other. I sincerely doubt staff even wants a Ranger to be a common sight, much less a landed Numenorean of some kind.
(Morgoth):
I had a part in everything.
Twice I destroyed the light and twice I failed.
I left ruin behind me when I returned.
But I also carried ruin with me.
She, the mistress of her own lust.
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Fulgrim
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