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Character Creation?

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Re: Character Creation?

Postby Rivean » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:42 am

EltanimRas wrote:Actually ... would it break anything to let us directly set our characters' heights and weights? Let the game translate our choices into short/tall/heavy/light on the back-end, if other code depends on those categories.

Even if we keep height and weight randomized, it'd be nice to see those rolls before we write our descriptions, rather than after.


Agreed on both points. I suspect there may be some interchange between height/size and strength/agility stats now, but surely the stats could be modified after the player sets the desc, instead of the stats modifying the height?
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby bjg2k1us » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:22 pm

Select height and frame as max. Set str at 10, everything else on a curve downwards (7s, 4s, and 1s). End up with nothing but goods and averages.

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Re: Character Creation?

Postby toofast » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:52 pm

bjg2k1us wrote:Select height and frame as max. Set str at 10, everything else on a curve downwards (7s, 4s, and 1s). End up with nothing but goods and averages.

(╯ಠ_ಠ)╯︵ ┻━┻


Happened to pretty much all the first chars that were accepted. This is happening again? Shit.
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby soiacc » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:17 am

You set the stat you want as the most important and the rest as least important.

Maybe a note could be put in the chargen at that point?
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby bjg2k1us » Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:59 am

Or maybe I want one stat highest, others less high, and still others below that. The stat generator implies you should be able to do that by using the full range, and thereby ending up with a curve from most to least important - but it doesn't appear to actually do that. If I only wanted strength to be high, and didn't care where the others fell, then using only most and least important would make sense. But there doesn't seem to be a way to reproduce that kind of curve, so all the talk of 10,000,000 different ways to arrange stats is a bit rubbish. Go all random or use a point buy, but pretending to have control while ending up with results that don't represent your choices is a waste of everyone's time.
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby tehkory » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:47 am

bjg2k1us wrote:Or maybe I want one stat highest, others less high, and still others below that. The stat generator implies you should be able to do that by using the full range, and thereby ending up with a curve from most to least important - but it doesn't appear to actually do that. If I only wanted strength to be high, and didn't care where the others fell, then using only most and least important would make sense. But there doesn't seem to be a way to reproduce that kind of curve, so all the talk of 10,000,000 different ways to arrange stats is a bit rubbish. Go all random or use a point buy, but pretending to have control while ending up with results that don't represent your choices is a waste of everyone's time.


From my experience Staff aren't willing to shift stats around, either, though you may have better luck than I did. I'm not sure if they do it unless you have higher-than-peak or lower-than-poor stats.

ETA: Support tickets are probably the best way to handle it.
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby Throttle » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:11 pm

My stats have come out pretty close to my expectations on both of the PCs I've made. If you got all good/average, this is a bug and staff will reroll your stats. That aside, the stat ordering system has seemed to work quite well in my experience. They've come out the way I prioritized them.
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby BoogtehWoog » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:13 pm

As have mine; however, with only two characters as evidence, I cannot say much.
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby EltanimRas » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:33 pm

EltanimRas wrote:So far, I'm finding the results roughly predictable only when I limit myself to using three (or at most four) widely-spaced settings.

And I think I'd stick to three if the ordering really mattered to me. As widely-spaced as possible.
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby Bogre » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:28 pm

bjg2k1us wrote:Or maybe I want one stat highest, others less high, and still others below that. The stat generator implies you should be able to do that by using the full range, and thereby ending up with a curve from most to least important - but it doesn't appear to actually do that. If I only wanted strength to be high, and didn't care where the others fell, then using only most and least important would make sense. But there doesn't seem to be a way to reproduce that kind of curve, so all the talk of 10,000,000 different ways to arrange stats is a bit rubbish. Go all random or use a point buy, but pretending to have control while ending up with results that don't represent your choices is a waste of everyone's time.


Stats for humans/orcs are around 1-18, and I imagine that there is a base of 7/8. So your attempt to max strength (18) needs to be much higher respectively than the others, because a 1-2 point randomization up or down is relatively big, because it isn't a bigger range of numbers to vary through.
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby EltanimRas » Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:32 am

Most recent attempt: Used only the "most important", "slightly important" and "most unimportant" priority levels. Still had a "slightly important" stat come out above a "most important" one.

Knowing that the upgrade command exists now, I find this less frustrating than I might have in the past. (I still think the chargen/commencement process should mention this command!)
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby Songweaver » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:00 am

It's not just the disparity between your preferences. Other things matter too. Here's three of those things:

1) Starting race. If you're rolling human, expect to roll higher willpower than you anticipated rolling. You get a racial boost. Not sure about orcs, because they smell bad.

2) Size. If you aren't going average/average with your two size choices in chargen, expect there to be some unexpected disparity in your str/con/dex/agi, depending on what you choose.

3) Number of "positive" preferences vs "negative" preferences. The more positive preferences you have in your list during chargen, the less variation you will see in stats - which can allow your less preferred stats to jump up over your more preferred stats with the minor randomization present in the system; my suspicion is that this is what folks are seeing happen if they're still having problems with this.

Assign numbers to the preference variation, where "most important" is the highest positive number (+5) and "most unimportant" is the lowest negative number (-5), with a single integer difference between each tier. Take your attribute selections and add them all up. Is your ending result positive? Negative? The lower the result is, the greater your variation will be (and therefor the more likely you are to get a preferred order for your stats). The higher that number is, the closer your stats are going to be to one another before the slight randomization is accounted for.

So far, I've not had any problems getting pretty much exactly the attribute builds that I was going for by remembering these three things and taking my time.
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby EltanimRas » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:57 am

Songweaver wrote:Starting race. If you're rolling human, expect to roll higher willpower than you anticipated rolling.

Racially boosted stats prioritized high and rolled high, so not switching the order in this case, although I can see how it might in others (and would therefore be a useful thing to keep in mind).

Songweaver wrote:If you aren't going average/average with your two size choices in chargen, expect there to be some unexpected disparity in your str/con/dex/agi, depending on what you choose.

This is a possibility. I've seen two separate rolls where the order swap was between one of these four stats (possibly boosted by weight selection) and one of the three mental stats (possibly nerfed by randomization).

I find it unintuitive, though. If I want to make a plump weakling or a skinny klutz, then I have to try really, really hard. I'd be much happier if weight selection only carried penalties -- so I still couldn't make a tiny powerhouse or a hulking ninja, but the above-mentioned plump weakling and skinny klutz would be relatively easy to roll.

[Note: I may be wrong about how things currently work; it's possible the swaps I'm seeing are entirely RNG-based. If Songweaver's theory is the cause, though, then the above is my preference.]

Songweaver wrote:Take your attribute selections and add them all up. Is your ending result positive? Negative? The lower the result is, the greater your variation will be (and therefor the more likely you are to get a preferred order for your stats). The higher that number is, the closer your stats are going to be to one another before the slight randomization is accounted for.

+5 +5 +1 +1 -5 -5 -5 = -3

Is that one more positive priority than negative? Yes. Is it a net positive by the suggested addition scheme? No. If I need my total at -4 or below to get reliably ordered stats, that again is something that strikes me as highly unintuitive.

***

Side note, not directly related to ordering issues: In general, my "most unimportant" stats feel as if they roll high to me; they're most often "average".

Postscript to Songweaver: Thanks for the suggestions.
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby Songweaver » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:40 am

My suggestion to you would have been to do something like this instead:

+5 +5 +1 -1 -4 -4 -5, flipping your less preferred attribute from "slightly important" to "slightly unimportant". Here's why:

- The difference between those two (previously evenly preferred) attributes would still be very slight, and possibly non-existent with racial bonuses (if the new -1 was willpower) or size bonuses.

- This would satisfy both of my suggestions above in regards to how to create a less well-rounded, more specifically designed build.

It's hard for me to say more, without knowing all of the variables in question, or being unable to know the exact numerical values of your stats (since levels like average/good have a fairly wide range).

Is the new system intuitive? Perhaps not yet. The old system was intuitive, but often unreliable and too randomized. This system is less intuitive, but more reliable once you understand how to work it. Being a design/math-oriented guy, I love it. I love reverse-engineering it. But, I can also understand why it might seem obfuscous to others.
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby Rivean » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:50 am

EltanimRas wrote:[Speculation based on one example]


I think these instances of data are very relevant but we're essentially talking about the larger picture.

Songweaver wrote:[Very helpful stuff]


As it presently stands, it seems to be that the difference between being able to get the sort of character you want (within coded limitations) and getting something different is knowing all of these little tricks and what-have-yous.

Essentially this means that people who are familiar with this seemingly complex (and all systems are complex when you do not know the intricacies of how they work) have a much greater chance of getting what they want than Joe Newbie, who is much much likelier to be unhappy with the stats his PC generates.

In my view, this is a problem and a basic design flaw. Either:

a) The system should actually work as advertised (and if people are consistently getting stats that are in flagrant opposition to the priorities they set, then the system is NOT working as advertised) and the stat priority should weigh far more heavily than randomization or interference from other factors, OR;

b) Information about all of these 'other factors' need to be readily accessible to everybody, preferably in chargen itself. Under no circumstances should, 'Learn how to game the chargen to get what you should legitimately be able to roll but cannot for lack of information' be part of any sort of gameplay mechanics for the game.

A little randomness is good. People being reasonably able to get what they want within the bounds of said randomness is good.

We seem to be failing at that second point rather consistently.
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby EltanimRas » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:09 am

Songweaver wrote:+5 +5 +1 -1 -4 -4 -5, flipping your less preferred attribute from "slightly important" to "slightly unimportant".

My less preferred attribute, or the attribute I think is most likely to be boosted in a direction contrary to my intentions for the character?

Also, what's the purpose of the two -4s?

Rivean wrote:We seem to be failing at that second point rather consistently.

I'm not sure I'd say we're failing at it 'consistently'. That is, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the quirks in the system affected certain subsets of the player population disproportionately -- people who like more polarized stats, for example, or ones who tend to pick more extreme size options.

Otherwise, though, yes. More documentation -- and more centrally located, readily newbie-accessible documentation -- is a Good Thing.
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby EltanimRas » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:43 am

Actually, about those frame options -- if I pick 'medium', my human characters seem to come out huge. I had one girl roll in 6 feet tall and 184 lbs. (By way of comparison, Riv is 6'2" and under 150!)

I practically have to pick 'scant' to get something that sounds average to me. A PC I tried that on? 5'6", 142 lbs. That's a BMI of 22.9, right in the center of the normal range.

I could swear I've had 'average' height PCs roll in up to 3" taller than 'rangy' ones, too. And 5" taller than the modern U.S. average. Bah. (I wish our choices saved in the character stable, so I could verify this sort of thing.)

Less complaining, more playing?
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby teepu » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:54 am

It would also benefit to have the Chargen actually create and display a result with each stage, so by the end if it really comes to it, the concept could be altered. Although I don't like the idea of modifying the concepts for the coded stats but that's what you have to deal with in the end. Sooner or later, you will have to come to code for the effects of the stats.
RP as much as I want that my char is an efficient badass/carpenter etc. or ridiculously bad at it, unless my stats agree, the ruse can't be kept up for long.

More information provided to the audience, prior to sending in an application, lessens the hassle on the staff post-commencing

Or at least the height and weight should be formulated before finalizing the app, so the desc can be set to portray as close to what your PC actually is physically.
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby Hazgarn » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:24 am

teepu wrote:Or at least the height and weight should be formulated before finalizing the app, so the desc can be set to portray as close to what your PC actually is physically.


Or just an idea of what those height and build categories really mean, perhaps.
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby Songweaver » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:20 pm

I believe (though it's just speculation from testing, with no real authority) that it's your size selection that matters in regards to your stats, and not the size result.

I suggested the two -4s to keep you at the same "sum total" while switching your second +1 to a -1. Not necessary to do so, though.
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby EltanimRas » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:57 pm

Songweaver wrote:I believe (though it's just speculation from testing, with no real authority) that it's your size selection that matters in regards to your stats, and not the size result.

Yeah, I think these are almost three separate problems:

    1. there's a learning curve on stat prioritization (which may undesirably advantage experienced players, forum readers, etc.)
    2. getting a height and weight that suits your vision (or at least your description) can be tricky even with experience
    3. the interaction between size selection and stats means that the setting that gets you a height and weight you like (or even consider average) may further complicate your stat prioritization choices.

[p.s. Thanks again!]
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Re: Character Creation?

Postby MrDvAnt » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:29 pm

teepu wrote:It would also benefit to have the Chargen actually create and display a result with each stage, so by the end if it really comes to it, the concept could be altered. Although I don't like the idea of modifying the concepts for the coded stats but that's what you have to deal with in the end. Sooner or later, you will have to come to code for the effects of the stats.
RP as much as I want that my char is an efficient badass/carpenter etc. or ridiculously bad at it, unless my stats agree, the ruse can't be kept up for long.

More information provided to the audience, prior to sending in an application, lessens the hassle on the staff post-commencing

Or at least the height and weight should be formulated before finalizing the app, so the desc can be set to portray as close to what your PC actually is physically.


Something along these lines would be nice for the less math-minded among us, such as myself. Not all of us have the desire or even ability to figure out how to min/max our stats.
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