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Unpopular Opinions Thread

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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby RiderOnTheStorm » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:13 pm

With Legendary in sneak, the Ninja Vanish seems pretty IC to me.

Is the Legendary swordsman not allowed to kill me in one hit?
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby tehkory » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:17 pm

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:With Legendary in sneak, the Ninja Vanish seems pretty IC to me.

Is the Legendary swordsman not allowed to kill me in one hit?

With legendary in hide/sneak, this is -still- a scenario where your PC's either unprepared, already been found, or done fucked up enough to get found. But once you escape, you should feel free to codedly abandon the guy, but if it's hot on your heels, faster than you, and/or able to outrun you...your hiding won't avail you any way.

To wit: the legendary swordsman is not allowed to be legendary with a tree-root.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby Songweaver » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:25 pm

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:With Legendary in sneak, the Ninja Vanish seems pretty IC to me.

Is the Legendary swordsman not allowed to kill me in one hit?


Codely, you are correct. He cannot kill you in one hit unless you are laying asleep on the ground without armor and he gets the biggest crit of his life. It's not the same. I've never seen any PC one-hit kill another PC that was in good health.

Ninja vanishing can be cool when done with roleplay that interacts with other peoples' roleplay, and when it makes sense within the scene. It doesn't always make sense, though.

I'll use the other comparison going on here to share how I feel about it.

If I am trying to roleplay/emote at an enemy and they set run/run from the room without any response, that's frustrating. If I am trying to roleplay with an enemy and they type hide without any sort of roleplay to indicate what they are doing (particularly because hide doesn't show up as a string to people not grouped with you), that's frustrating.

And they are both just inherently bad play, in my opinion.



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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:32 pm

I'm not even sure I have that much of an opinion on this entire thing, but... To be fair...

You just shot/stabbed/attacked someone. Just as it's a bit twinkish to make use of code to follow someone, it's also a bit twinkish to just assume you could then pull a ninja vanish without anyone even knowing where you went.

ETA: You can't even say 'well they should have used watch' because then that's exact same thing as saying 'well they should have used group close.'[/quote]

Well, in one situation I'm thinking of, character A shot at a person, missed, hit the wolf person B was fighting. Person B immediately came running in, searched the room, exposed person A, person A saw he was spotted, ran off and tried to find cover, person B ran in, followed and began attacking while person A tried to start a conversation and rp a bit, then five more ran in, followed and began wailing.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby Songweaver » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:36 pm

MrDvAnt wrote:I'm not even sure I have that much of an opinion on this entire thing, but... To be fair...

You just shot/stabbed/attacked someone. Just as it's a bit twinkish to make use of code to follow someone, it's also a bit twinkish to just assume you could then pull a ninja vanish without anyone even knowing where you went.

ETA: You can't even say 'well they should have used watch' because then that's exact same thing as saying 'well they should have used group close.'


Well, in one situation I'm thinking of, character A shot at a person, missed, hit the wolf person B was fighting. Person B immediately came running in, searched the room, exposed person A, person A saw he was spotted, ran off and tried to find cover, person B ran in, followed and began attacking while person A tried to start a conversation and rp a bit, then five more ran in, followed and began wailing.


Once combat's been engaged and people are moving to code, it's tough to expect anyone to roleplay. The opportunities for good play lie before folks jump to code; sometimes, going to code first makes sense (like in an ambush scenario).

I'm not a proponent of ROE at all, but I am a staunch opponent of using your IC enemy's player's good will and effort to roleplay as an opportunity for you to use code to get away. It happens all the time, of course. When I was an admin, the people who did it would just simply remain at 0RPP until they played well with others.
Last edited by Songweaver on Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:38 pm

Songweaver wrote:
MrDvAnt wrote:I'm not even sure I have that much of an opinion on this entire thing, but... To be fair...

You just shot/stabbed/attacked someone. Just as it's a bit twinkish to make use of code to follow someone, it's also a bit twinkish to just assume you could then pull a ninja vanish without anyone even knowing where you went.

ETA: You can't even say 'well they should have used watch' because then that's exact same thing as saying 'well they should have used group close.'


Well, in one situation I'm thinking of, character A shot at a person, missed, hit the wolf person B was fighting. Person B immediately came running in, searched the room, exposed person A, person A saw he was spotted, ran off and tried to find cover, person B ran in, followed and began attacking while person A tried to start a conversation and rp a bit, then five more ran in, followed and began wailing.


Once combat's been engaged and people are moving to code, it's tough to expect anyone to roleplay. The opportunities for good play lie before folks jump to code; sometimes, going to code first makes sense (like in an ambush scenario).

I'm not a proponent of ROE at all, but I am a staunch opponent of using your IC enemy's player's good will and effort to roleplay as an opportunity for you to use code to get away. It happens all the time, of course. When I was an admin, the people who did it would just simply remain at 0RPP until they played well with others.[/quote]

I do agree, I'm against ROE myself, just responding to a few people saying the only time they used the follow command was so they could emote or RP when I clearly saw otherwise. Obviously, people should remember to close their group, but I still think it's pretty twinky to take advantage of someone forgetting to do so. Like it was said above, you're joining the person's group, not just trailing behind them in order to catch them.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby tehkory » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:44 pm

MrDvAnt wrote:
Well, in one situation I'm thinking of, character A shot at a person, missed, hit the wolf person B was fighting. Person B immediately came running in, searched the room, exposed person A, person A saw he was spotted, ran off

You're skipping a few steps, so let me add them: person A fired a bow. Person A was visible. Person B ran in to the room Person A shot from as Person A finished hiding, searched, and found Person B.

At which point, Person B's running off after being found. If you do this, people are within their rights to chase you down. I was there for this: the 'one' PC likely could've had an extensive scene played out with the five...or they could've escaped quite ably had they passed any of their skill checks. But when you engage people in coded combat(shooting them), and then are found and immediately go to code again(moving off in another direction), don't be surprised that you're codedly engaged right back.
and tried to find cover, person B ran in, followed and began attacking while person A tried to start a conversation and rp a bit, then five more ran in, followed and began wailing.

It sucks that the 'five' came in and engaged in combat so swiftly, and that the PC(by a bug of the code) was killed unintentionally...but it happens. There were intentions and plans of people playing this out. It's unfortunate it went this way. But there was plenty option for the PC involved to not only -survive-, but have an extensive chance to roleplay out this dangerous, -possibly- deadly encounter before it went to code. Go read Krelm's posted log for some examples of this. Just remember(I've had trouble remembering this a time or two, once when my PC's pregnant wife was shot): just because you're found(and at risk of dying)/engaged, doesn't mean there's not a chance yet still for the scene to both be played out and played out another way.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:48 pm

tehkory wrote:
MrDvAnt wrote:
Well, in one situation I'm thinking of, character A shot at a person, missed, hit the wolf person B was fighting. Person B immediately came running in, searched the room, exposed person A, person A saw he was spotted, ran off

You're skipping a few steps, so let me add them: person A fired a bow. Person A was visible. Person B ran in to the room Person A shot from as Person A finished hiding, searched, and found Person B.

At which point, Person B's running off after being found. If you do this, people are within their rights to chase you down. I was there for this: the 'one' PC likely could've had an extensive scene played out with the five...or they could've escaped quite ably had they passed any of their skill checks. But when you engage people in coded combat(shooting them), and then are found and immediately go to code again(moving off in another direction), don't be surprised that you're codedly engaged right back.
and tried to find cover, person B ran in, followed and began attacking while person A tried to start a conversation and rp a bit, then five more ran in, followed and began wailing.

It sucks that the 'five' came in and engaged in combat so swiftly, and that the PC(by a bug of the code) was killed unintentionally...but it happens. There were intentions and plans of people playing this out. It's unfortunate it went this way. But there was plenty option for the PC involved to not only -survive-, but have an extensive chance to roleplay out this dangerous, -possibly- deadly encounter before it went to code. Go read Krelm's posted log for some examples of this. Just remember(I've had trouble remembering this a time or two, once when my PC's pregnant wife was shot): just because you're found(and at risk of dying)/engaged, doesn't mean there's not a chance yet still for the scene to both be played out and played out another way.


Well, it obviously looked different from both sides. Person A thought they were well hidden before person B arrived. Person A did, however, stop after moving one or two rooms and seeing he wasn't going to shake person B, and try to engage in conversation. Anyhow, the fact remains..following codedly not necessarily the best way to go about things.

Just to be clear, I'm not contesting any of the IC actions or reasoning, you'll notice I didn't question that person B automatically went running and assuming the arrow was meant for them instead of the wolf it hit. My only issue is the actual use of the follow command.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby Raukran » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:52 pm

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:With Legendary in sneak, the Ninja Vanish seems pretty IC to me.

Is the Legendary swordsman not allowed to kill me in one hit?


While my character was codely watching you? You snuck from the room, my character -saw- it, you shouted something mocking, then twink ran off.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby RiderOnTheStorm » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:56 pm

Raukran wrote:
RiderOnTheStorm wrote:With Legendary in sneak, the Ninja Vanish seems pretty IC to me.

Is the Legendary swordsman not allowed to kill me in one hit?


While my character was codely watching you? You snuck from the room, my character -saw- it, you shouted something mocking, then twink ran off.


Kind of like you twink 'blocked' wilderness exits? How does that work ICly exactly, are you Stretch Armstrong?
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:00 pm

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:
Raukran wrote:
RiderOnTheStorm wrote:With Legendary in sneak, the Ninja Vanish seems pretty IC to me.

Is the Legendary swordsman not allowed to kill me in one hit?


While my character was codely watching you? You snuck from the room, my character -saw- it, you shouted something mocking, then twink ran off.


Kind of like you twink 'blocked' wilderness exits? How does that work ICly exactly, are you Stretch Armstrong?


You can block someone from moving in a direction if you're close to them...it's not like the blocked person can teleport over 100 yards and then just waltz through the forest.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby Raukran » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:08 pm

MrDvAnt wrote:
RiderOnTheStorm wrote:Kind of like you twink 'blocked' wilderness exits? How does that work ICly exactly, are you Stretch Armstrong?


You can block someone from moving in a direction if you're close to them...it's not like the blocked person can teleport over 100 yards and then just waltz through the forest.


The game accounts for this, and you need at least three guards on each direction to be very successful at it. But hey, at least I gave you a courtesy emote.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby Hazgarn » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:49 pm

Using hide and sneaking off when you've become the center of attention in a scene of more than five other people, and one has emoted reaching out to touch you is... Well, there's a word for that.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:43 pm

Hazgarn wrote:Using hide and sneaking off when you've become the center of attention in a scene of more than five other people, and one has emoted reaching out to touch you is... Well, there's a word for that.


Yes, that would certainly be a misuse of the code.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby Jeshin » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:38 pm

Petition / Support ticket to staff for such comments! It's 100% more effective than forum shaming!
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby tehkory » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:40 pm

Jeshin wrote:Petition / Support ticket to staff for such comments! It's 100% more effective than forum shaming!

These sorts of discussions are good. I'd certainly rather hear a person's reason why they thought it not twinky(if they can give such a reason) then repeatedly complain to Staff about something that may or may not be actual code abuse.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby toofast » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:44 pm

Jeshin wrote:Petition / Support ticket to staff for such comments! It's 100% more effective than forum shaming!


Effective for what? Getting someone banned or slapped on the wrist? I'm not really for that and I doubt most of the people in the discussion are, either.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby Raukran » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:46 pm

toofast wrote:
Jeshin wrote:Petition / Support ticket to staff for such comments! It's 100% more effective than forum shaming!


Effective for what? Getting someone banned or slapped on the wrist? I'm not really for that and I doubt most of the people in the discussion are, either.


Typically I try to handle the matters myself. As Kory pointed out, I didn't get involved until some sort of justification was given by the person in question. All the same, it's interesting to hear the other side of things.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby Hawkwind » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:10 pm

American football is not a real sport, nor are their athletes in any way comparable to any other sports. They are freaks of nature given over to bloodsport, its awesome, but not a real sport.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby tehkory » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:13 pm

Everyone ever should take every opportunity available to replace the word 'utterly' with 'uttterby.' I think it's utterby disgusting that this isn't happening already.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:17 pm

Hawkwind wrote:American football is not a real sport, nor are their athletes in any way comparable to any other sports. They are freaks of nature given over to bloodsport, its awesome, but not a real sport.


Hey now..let's try to stay away from politics and religion.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby worstperson » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:07 pm

Tolkien created a pretty cool fantasy world and a detailed fantasy setting at a time in which nobody really had one so definitive to set the standard.

But it was populated with characters that by most standards are shallow, a sense of ethics too strongly influenced by religion and outright bigotry. Most importantly, it should be stressed that a world like the one he created is actually kind of boring to roleplay in.

Taking the fantasy structure he created and building something more realistic and interesting from it is the blueprint a game like this should strive for - not a ridiculous adherence to the writer's most glaring shortcomings.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby toofast » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:08 pm

worstperson wrote:Tolkien created a pretty cool fantasy world and a detailed fantasy setting at a time in which nobody really had one so definitive to set the standard.

But it was populated with characters that by most standards are shallow, a sense of ethics too strongly influenced by religion and outright bigotry, and frankly, a world like the one he created is actually kind of boring to roleplay in.

Taking the fantasy structure he created and building something more realistic and interesting from it is the blueprint a game like this should strive for; not a ridiculous adherence to the writer's most glaring shortcomings.


I agree.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby tehkory » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:25 pm

toofast wrote:
worstperson wrote:Tolkien created a pretty cool fantasy world and a detailed fantasy setting at a time in which nobody really had one so definitive to set the standard.

But it was populated with characters that by most standards are shallow, a sense of ethics too strongly influenced by religion and outright bigotry, and frankly, a world like the one he created is actually kind of boring to roleplay in.

Taking the fantasy structure he created and building something more realistic and interesting from it is the blueprint a game like this should strive for; not a ridiculous adherence to the writer's most glaring shortcomings.


I agree.


You agreeing made me disagree all the more.

Also, we all say aye too much. This is now an RP-Aye.
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Re: Unpopular Opinions Thread

Postby MarsGrad » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:31 pm

tehkory wrote:Also, we all say aye too much. This is now an RP-Aye.


I am so guilty of this. It's started seeping into everything, too. I have to actually stop myself from saying it when I'm not IC.
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