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Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:04 pm

Hazgarn wrote:
MrDvAnt wrote:I didn't see any admin state that and having only made my character two weeks ago, I wasn't aware that changes had been made since then. My apologies if I'm wrong, but I remain unconvinced and unlike some people don't have time to read through pages and pages of complaints and people saying the same things over and over.

The problem with this, though, is that the nerfed skills are exactly the topic of the thread you're posting in.

The very first paragraph of Throttle's first post wrote:There was some discussion in the orc forum about starting skill levels, and I recently talked to Icarus about this as well. Apparently there was a change a few weeks back, further lowering starting skills in the name of prolonging the progress phase of PCs (that's what I was told). While it's probably being discussed staff-side already, it's worth a thread here as well.


If you can't read the first post of a thread to understand the topic properly, you probably shouldn't be posting in it.


Cool story brah. Sorry for daring to play in your sandbox. I'll back out now.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:05 pm

someguy wrote:
MrDvAnt wrote:Thirdly, boohoo..you can't start off a badass. I'm never going to sympathize on this one. I'm tired of everyone in today's society thinking they "deserve" to have what they want handed to them. If you don't want to play a game where you start off weak and build up to being stronger, then don't play one.


Contrarily, if you don't want to play a game where people have opinions that aren't the same as yours, don't read the forums. Where did today's society come from, anyway? I'm not going to write a biopic here, but, dude, chill out with blaming the woes of the game on the society that you've mentally assigned the people you've never met.


Why not when they're displaying said attitudes and entitlement? I'm not the one condemning people, just stating my opinion. You guys seem to be the ones that have a problem with me not agreeing with you.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby someguy » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:10 pm

I don't care if you agree with me or not, but if you're going to disagree with me at least do it from a position based on the current state of chargen instead of what you think it might be before you call me some sort of entitled nob.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:16 pm

someguy wrote:I don't care if you agree with me or not, but if you're going to disagree with me at least do it from a position based on the current state of chargen instead of what you think it might be before you call me some sort of entitled nob.


Sure thing. Terribly sorry. Carry on.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby tehkory » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:18 pm

Given that skills used to begin at mid-to-low familiarwhen you had only four...

And given that each skill has a range of ten points...

And given that amateur is 30-39, and familiar 40-49...

And given that skills are dropping by 6-7 points...

Yes, an Admin literally(formal usage or informal usage) told you that a 4-skill start gives amateur skills. As did multiple players. I have no problem with either your disagreeing nor your expressing opinions. I have problems with your inability to remain on topic without ad hominems, straw men, nor even a basic comprehension of the topic itself.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby krelm » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:28 pm

MrDvAnt wrote:you can't start off a badass.


I'm curious as to where you got the idea that people want to start off as "badasses."

There are only two posts in this whole thread where someone genuinely advocates starting skills be above familiar.

Mostly, this thread is about people who've been playing on this engine for years and years (namely myself, Kory, Someguy, Throttle, and whoever else) questioning why the starting skill values were lowered from familiar to amateur, making an already-hyper-deadly game even more deadly, especially to newbies who don't know anything about anything.

No one wants to start off as a badass, they just want their skills put to a level where they could, at the very least, scrape past most small encounters (see: fighting 1 or 2 aggro mobs) alive (also see: just alive, not killing both mobs single-handed) without having to hardcore grind for a couple of weeks beforehand, which nobody out of highschool and community college (oh, how I miss that amount of free time) has any free time to do.
Last edited by krelm on Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:29 pm

tehkory wrote:Given that skills used to begin at mid-to-low familiarwhen you had only four...

And given that each skill has a range of ten points...

And given that amateur is 30-39, and familiar 40-49...

And given that skills are dropping by 6-7 points...

Yes, an Admin literally(formal usage or informal usage) told you that a 4-skill start gives amateur skills. As did multiple players. I have no problem with either your disagreeing nor your expressing opinions. I have problems with your inability to remain on topic without ad hominems, straw men, nor even a basic comprehension of the topic itself.


Sure thing. Terribly sorry. Carry on.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby Saellyn » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:56 pm

Be nice, guys, seriously.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby Letters » Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:12 pm

I agree with Krelm.

Weird.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby Bogre » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:34 am

Holmes wrote:
Songweaver wrote:Disagree on the PvE mortality rate and danger of the wilderness (there are easy mobs in safe areas to kill).


SoI is on course to surpass Parallel's player death total within the next week. Parallel had active players for ~6-7 month, SoI's been open for one.


Awesome.

This is great.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby Ava » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:41 pm

It's hard for me to keep a Tolkien-ish narrative in my head with the death rate - with characters either ignoring constant death, or going insane with grief, it's really tough to play (if you care about writing a character with a sort of coherent life, which I know doesn't bother some people). I think sitting out until things settle is what I'll do.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby Songweaver » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:51 pm

Ava wrote:It's hard for me to keep a Tolkien-ish narrative in my head with the death rate - with characters either ignoring constant death, or going insane with grief, it's really tough to play (if you care about writing a character with a sort of coherent life, which I know doesn't bother some people). I think sitting out until things settle is what I'll do.


I'm not sure that I understand this mindset (or at least: this mindset, in the way that it is sometimes explained). Tolkien's Middle-Earth wasn't My Little Pony.

It was full of death and tragedy and grief.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby MrDvAnt » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:06 pm

Songweaver wrote:
Ava wrote:It's hard for me to keep a Tolkien-ish narrative in my head with the death rate - with characters either ignoring constant death, or going insane with grief, it's really tough to play (if you care about writing a character with a sort of coherent life, which I know doesn't bother some people). I think sitting out until things settle is what I'll do.


I'm not sure that I understand this mindset (or at least: this mindset, in the way that it is sometimes explained). Tolkien's Middle-Earth wasn't My Little Pony.

It was full of death and tragedy and grief.


I think that for some reason, maybe tv, people have all decided that if you're surrounded by death and rough conditions you have no choice but to become evil.

Editing to elaborate.

It seems like a lot of people are just stuck in the mindset that if a person lives in a gritty, dangerous place they will automatically become gritty and dangerous themselves.
Personally, I think it gives people an even better chance to portray a character that embodies the spirit of Tolkien's work. When faced with hardship and grief people should come together and find strength in each other. They should rise above the challenges and display the nobility and strength of the human spirit.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby Ava » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:30 pm

Maybe my biggest problem is that Utterby as a setting isn't set up as a town under siege by wolves; it's a lumber town, chosen probably because there is some money to be made, and maybe not at the cost of hundreds of lives (when the population is probably around that?).

If it is, then maybe have Utterby as a setting change? Otherwise there's a lot of suspension of belief... and it's hard (for me at least) to reconcile why any normal people would be in this place with low gain, and high mortality, unless there was some kind of reason that people would be in a besieged outpost (the lumber here is needed for some cause greater than profit [and worth lives]).

Back to the OP: 'some kind of reason that [amateurs] would be in a besieged outpost'? Maybe it makes sense that they would be there?
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby Frigga » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:58 pm

I wonder if part of the issue is less the death rate and more ... people find all the bodies. Death happened on a rather consistent basis outside the gates of both Osgiliath and Angost to PvP and wildlife (including moose and not even discussing things like trogs.)

But those wilderness areas were large enough sometimes someone wandered out and didn't come back and one had no certainty what happened (until new gear went up for sale at the pawn shop. :lol: ) because bodies were never found.

Drowning was actually a major cause of noob death due to progs and the swim code. Falling into a lake or river meant your body sunk and was nevet found. And falling off things was always popular. (Even better , as you sometimes left no wounds so people could only surmise what killed you
) Maybe those were less traumatic and people were less upset finding people thst way (when they found them.)

But as discussed before, people did indeed deal with death on a regular basis. It was an established fact that heading out the Eastern Gate of Osgiliath alone was stupid and probably suicidal. Many places have been low gain, high mortality yet wonderful and complex RP developed there.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby krelm » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:15 pm

Frigga wrote:Angost


If I remember correctly, Angost's map was much, much smaller than the map we're dealing with-- at least for the time I played there.

When I was regularly playing in the Earmhyde we could patrol the entire map with just 3-4 people in about an hour, rarely running into any wildlife that would cause us trouble-- and it wasn't because of our leet skills, either, because my PC at the time only had a single adroit (which, keep in mind, on SoI meant that that particular skill was at 50, not 60).

The only time I remember a whole slew of people dying at the same time in Angost was during one of Songweaver's end-all-be-all hRPTs.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby Matt » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:36 pm

But what is really the solution to lots of people dying? Starting skills going back the way they were isn't going to slow that. You can't lock the gates and not let anyone leave. So does the wildlife just get made easier? That won't change it unless you just make it so everyone can take out 4 wolves at a time by themselves. People are going to keep dying over and over again until they figure out the area around Utterby isn't a very forgiving place.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby Songweaver » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:46 pm

Early on in Angost (before you played there), there was a lot of death and near party wipes.

Angost's wilderness (that between the town and the Mines of Moria) was about 600 rooms (larger, I am guessing, than this wilderness). It was built more like a square, however, with larger hidden areas within it, so it didn't take quite as long as the current map does to cross from one side to the other on a straight route. Angost itself was about 60 rooms. The Mines of Moria was ... well, a lot. This map's definitely smaller, overall.

The wildlife in Angost was comparably dangerous to this wildlife, but was spawned by nests; that meant if you killed the nests, you might get a few days of reprieve where the wilderness was fairly safe. Angost's wilderness also became more dangerous the closer it came to night.

The mortality rate, currently, is already going down from what it was in the initial "rush" of the first month. It's tough to compare the first six weeks of this game to other spheres/games; Northlands opened to just Heren Carnatalion (already full of veteran combat PCs), before Angost the town ever opened at all. I staggered the Atonement ALPHA "wilderness" (the ship) opening deck-by-deck, scaling up the difficulty as time went on; remember, you couldn't even find an aggro mob or leave deck one for the first week or so of Atonement ALPHA.

SOI3 launched a full wilderness the same size as all of Atonement ALPHA on day one, with a variety of tiered wildlife. Since that time, effort has been made to balance weapons/armor/mobs, place nomob rooms to section off the scariest mobs into isolated, scary areas, and make the area surrounding Utterby and Vadok Mal relatively safe (with only rare, small threats that are easy to run from, if not overcome entirely).

The death rate is down. It'll continue to go down, except for spikes due to RPTs or PVP. Things are balanced. Comparisons are difficult.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby Ava » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:51 pm

I'd ask: What's the purpose? Is it to support setting? Or is it arbitrary? Does it have a reason, and is that reason reflected in the setting, not just the mechanic?
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby WorkerDrone » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:17 pm

You can't deny in entirety that scaling is partly motivated by having fine-tuned game mechanics for the sake of a "game" rather than the story.

You can make arguments for why it aides the story, but you only need a good writer to have a good story, you don't need game mechanics for one. While it's a good idea to have a balanced, relatively even-handed and competently crafted game surrounding those components, it isn't necessary for a good story, that takes people constantly motivating people with bits of plot and making those details accessible, instead of picking and choosing who sees what.

The only failing in bothering with these mechanic/code-based issues is ignoring the primary motivation for coming here and remaining.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby Jeshin » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:18 pm

What is the purpose of what? The lower starting skills or the design of the wildlife?
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby Ava » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:00 pm

Both I suppose. Why are all the people emmigrating to Utterby amateurs at their trades? What's the purpose behind a lumber town that needs super groups to go out to cut wood?
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby Real » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:32 pm

You don't need supergroups to cut wood. It takes one good fighter or a woodcutter and a good fighter to handle all the common spawns. (the worst of which would be a timber wolf and his two buddies) - Wear a helmet to guard against crits.

I can't speak for the skill levels but...you know, amateur is not bad considering you're straight out of character generation. Lowering the starting skill totals just makes having good skills something to be proud of; it's the result of your character's actions. I don't know many games that hand you the keys to the proverbial skill city right out the gate.

ETA: I'm not convinced that entering the game an amateur constitutes a difficult RP situation, or that it's even jarring. I like the idea of established characters being good and new characters not being - It makes sense, IC and OOC.
Last edited by Real on Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby someguy » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:06 pm

Four skills at familiar is not exactly the keys to the kingdom. Starting as even more worthless than that, though, will really cause new players to enjoy the game.

Yes, you're straight out of chargen, but that doesn't mean you're straight out of the womb. Adroits and masters are something to be proud of. Familiar is the basics of having a character concept that's not completely incompetent.
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Re: Starting skill levels & combat skillgains

Postby Jeshin » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:40 pm

Lets pose it this way. 4 skills = familiar, but RPP is supposed to be added at some point to allow for more 'complete' concepts because you're more trusted to RP.


So I am an RPP concept, with 4 skills, do I start with adroit or whatever now? How do you address rewards for people who have earned RPP trust to have more complete starying concepts?

As for supergroups, I know of PCs who go out regularly, solo, and do just fine because they are going out not to fight but to gather vegetables or wood. If you avoid fighting you'll likely live vs fighting stuff and hoping you can handle it.
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