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Concerns and Constructive Criticism

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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Songweaver » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:18 pm

Or in the classic complaint that you can't tell things from the IG boards that you'd logically expect your average vNPC to know and gossip about, like whether there is or isn't a sizable encampment of Hillmen just outside the town gates. :P

[ETA: Then again, I'm still not sure how many people live in Utterby!]


That information is most definitely on the gossip board at the Inn. I've seen it!
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Ava » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:13 pm

Songweaver wrote:Do any active players feel like they never get to interact with this camp clan's characters in-game? I don't feel like this is the case. I don't feel like there are two separate human spheres.


Yes.

EltanimRas wrote:
Real wrote:To conclude... If you feel excluded by the hillmen, you might find that the situation changes abruptly if you go up and knock on their gate. If it suits you to boycott them instead because life is unfair to you, that's fine, but it's exactly the same as if you just ignored the Guard or whatever.

Wellll. Even if I roll up one of those PCs who happens to feel intimidated by dark woods and spiked orc-heads, I can still park him between the guardhouse and the gate, which gives me pretty decent odds of meeting a whole lot of PCs -- and requires minimal creativity on my part to justify.


I'm going to have to try this.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby EltanimRas » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:37 pm

Songweaver wrote:That information is most definitely on the gossip board at the Inn. I've seen it!

1. Encampment - Yes, definitely on the IG boards, no argument at all.
2. Hillman - Maybe? I get a slightly different impression from this thread than I recall getting in-game, but it's certainly possible I've misread one or both sources.
3. Sizable - Again, I may very well have missed something (or multiple somethings), but I've never been clear on this, either for the encampment or for the main town.

But it's hardly worth derailing a thread over! (And it's ideally a 'find out IC' topic anyway, or most of it is.)
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Ava » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:57 pm

1.) How are newbies supposed to find the encampment?

2.) What would a regular Utterbian's excuse to go out to the encampment?

3.) Is it supposed to be open access?

I guess my concern is that even if there are IG posts, it's not really an 'open' play area, not unless you're invited... and how does your average person go about that? Besides putting yourself in a high traffic area and hoping the best, which seems like my best shot.

I guess it just seems like a closed sphere, and the game--especially just accounting for human side--seems way too small to warrant that.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby krelm » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:02 pm

You know, the exact same thing can be said of any clan. The Lodge and the Guard have enclosed areas, which are basically just as close to the main square as the Hillman encampment is.

How are newbies supposed to find either of those clans?
What's a regular Joe's excuse to go to those clans?
Are they supposed to be open access?

The answers to those questions:

1. Asking around about it.
2. Either to trade, join, interact with them, or any other IC reason.
3. No.

Are the exact same answers to the Hillman encampment. The clan is no different from the others IG, or any clan in MUD history, sans being PC led.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby jdidds » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:03 pm

Ava wrote:1.) How are newbies supposed to find the encampment?

2.) What would a regular Utterbian's excuse to go out to the encampment?

3.) Is it supposed to be open access?

I guess my concern is that even if there are IG posts, it's not really an 'open' play area, not unless you're invited... and how does your average person go about that? Besides putting yourself in a high traffic area and hoping the best, which seems like my best shot.

I guess it just seems like a closed sphere, and the game--especially just accounting for human side--seems way too small to warrant that.


1) It's pretty easy, and most characters can tell you its weareabouts IG.

2) Trade? Or to make fun at the smelly hillmen :D

3) The camp itself is not open and requires clanning, if that's what you meant.

From an IC perspective. Earn their trust, you'll get in eventually if you prove you're an asset of some sort, or that you want to part of the clan.
Last edited by jdidds on Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Ava » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:04 pm

how are newbies supposed to find either of those clans?
- They are in Utterby, enmeshed in Utterby in terms of defense and trade - the main reasons for people to be in Utterby.

What's a regular Joe's excuse to go to those clans?
- See last answer.

Are they supposed to be open access?
- See last answer.

"From an IC perspective. Earn their trust, you'll get in eventually if you prove you're an asset of some sort, or that you want to part of the clan." - So it's a closed sphere?
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby EltanimRas » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:08 pm

Significant portions of the Lodge, Inn, and Guard areas were also, last I checked, open or semi-open access.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby krelm » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:13 pm

I said this a bit ago, and decided it should go here:

Basically, it's just a clanhall.
It's the same as the vultures, the anarchs, and the willies.
It's the same as the RFC, Secops, and Robotics.
It's the same as the Earmhyde and the Spears.
It's the same as Gothakra and TEK.
It's the same as the Byn and whatever other Arm clans have clanhalls.
It isn't a sphere, it isn't a separate area of the game, it isn't a hotspot of admin activity.

It's just a clanhall-- of like, five or six PCs, no less. People are blowing it way out of proportion.

EDIT:

To note, before someone quotes Holmes' post at me, it isn't the exact same as the aforementioned clans-- but it does have an enclosed clanhall, only accessible to people within that clan, like all of those clans. Like basically every clan in the history of RPIs.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby EltanimRas » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:23 pm

I make no objection to clanhalls of any sort located inside the Utterby walls, where PCs can be seen (and interacted with) while travelling to and from them, if not while inside.

Speaking of, does anybody remember the doorbells some of the old SoI2 clanhalls used to have? Those were nice.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Ava » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:25 pm

1.) Are special group applications still disallowed?

2.) What would it take to get an exclusive rent-free clan hall?

3.) Can we get free workshops in them?
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby krelm » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:27 pm

No. source

RP and material junking.

I did, once, but that was orc side. As far as I'm aware hillmen have to craft in town.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Jeshin » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:34 pm

Based on Icarus' post it appears the staff actually agree with the sentiment that mistakes were made and then some followup mistakes were made while rolling with the punches.

I'm not sure that trying to emulate the family app or camp construction the hillmen did is something that would be productive. As it's more than likely that at some point in the future the staff might begin taking steps to fold everything back into Utterby as a focus.

Based off Icarus' post. In my opinion. Speculation.

PS - I am also fairly sure that emulating the family app and construction that occured probably wouldn't be allowed now as it was a 'mistake' before.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby EltanimRas » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:42 pm

krelm wrote:No. source

Note, however, that non-special small group applications may be allowed:

Icarus, as linked by Krelm, above, wrote:- To be accepted as a relative, any added PCs need to be someone mentioned by name in the other person's background. No unnamed third cousins randomly showing up.

- All apps need to be standard, local Rhovanion people.

- Groups of relatives can be a max of three. Further expansion of a group requires Frigga's approva.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Nimrod » Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:15 pm

Songweaver wrote:I am almost certain that Nimrod did not mean the use of petitioning to connect to the admins in regards to trying to actually do something or investigate something that is not defined codely. I can only assume, which is always dangerous, that Nimrod was referring to obnoxious and meaningless chatty/whiny petitions which are surprisingly common when you're an admin.


Don't assume. You're way off base. I prefer liberal use of the think command for cases like the bloodstain mentioned above.

Scenario 1:
A character walks in, sees bloodstains on the floor.
Petition all What's up with these bloodstains?

Is not good. (even if you do throw some emotes in there)

Scenario 2:
A character walks in, sees bloodstains on the floor.
emo peers at *Blood, frowning.
think Hrm... what's up with these bloodstains?
emo continues to inspect *blood closely, kneeling so as to get a better vantage.
think Looks like some blood on the ground... I wonder if it's fresh?
emo reaches to touch *blood with a finger, looking at the outline of blood.
<an echo from an admin> You note as you inspect the blood that it is is crusted over, but does not appear to be more than a few hours old. There is a slight coppery tang in the air and when you bend even closer you may note that something has been dragged through the blood.

THIS is how to get my attention for environmental echoes. If you think it and you don't get an echo... well... then, you may assume it's just a bloodstain, and good on you for liberal use of the think command and not petitioning.

As long as a think is in-character, I feel it's even a better way to get my attention than petitioning. Just don't be obnoxious about it.

think this bloody doorguard is soooo slow! I think I'll kick him in the arse for not responding to me right this second! Good god! He's just standing here... doing -nothing-, wasting my time.

I've seen thinks similar to this and it's a good way to get me NOT to respond to you. I'm a human being too and don't like being bitched at.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Nimrod » Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:39 pm

Brian wrote:
MrT2G wrote:Unpopular opinion warning...

Personally, I don't think the staff should be wasting their time on PCs, plots, and other rubblish. It is Alpha. We are here to be testing and balancing as far as I'm concerned.

The focus should be on setting up the full suite of crafts, progs, getting the resources sorted out, getting skill levels sorted out, get races sorted out, etc.

An important part of this, is figuring out policy in regards to players, player-led groups, and OOC/IC crossover. I've seen mistakes made and corrected. This, to me, is encouraging and I applaud the staff for recognizing themselves as fallible. True mistakes are only those you don't learn from.

Of course, as a player, I want to see plots. I want to see cool items and proper clans, but those things aren't essential for the development of the game overall.

Maybe, it is just the orc in me, but making due with what you have can be made part of the fun. Grimy bandage squat ftw! :mrgreen:


I think this post should be highlighted again, because I think MrT2G is exactly right. I will openly state here that I haven't played in weeks, didn't know there are hillmen or beornings, so I can't comment on any of that. However, it doesn't seem like dispensing plots, and who is getting what, and building special areas for clans should even be a factor right now. I believe the purpose of an ALPHA (and we're not even in a beta right now) is to take a broken version of what we hope to have and fix it -- this will eventually include plot distribution and stuff, but that's more BETA than ALPHA. ALPHA is finding bugs, balancing fundamental systems, all the stuff MrT2G said. Seeing as this game isn't even about Utterby at all and this is a test area for the eventual Laketown, I think that anything that doesn't bring us closer to opening Laketown is probably a waste of time. ALPHA isn't about players having fun -- if they do, that's great -- it's about finding out everything that needs to be fixed so we can fix it and move forward. The technical side comes first, skills, stats, bugs, room mapping errors, etc. Once that feels very stable and functional, maybe we worry about plot and such.


MrT2G and Brian FTW. I would add to this only by saying that this is also an Alpha for our Roleplay Admins and Elder Staffers as well. We're getting settled, we're letting mistakes happen, we're discovering how to better work with one another. It's all part of Alpha.

Saying 'This is Alpha' is not an invalid thing to point out to people and it's not an excuse. It's a reminder to EVERYONE, staff included, that we're trying things out, testing and seeing what works. Sure, there's a LOT of plots going on and a ton of player roleplay and we're trying to keep that in mind. Some people will be screwed by decisions we make, it's inevitable.

In the end, we're all working to reach a singular goal and we're making progress every single day.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Vwest » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:18 pm

The Hillmen aren't a perfect execution and even the staff have agreed things got out of hand. That said, they're still better for the game than the other clans in the sphere.

For me, it comes down to this: Despite my PC treating the Hillmen PCs like filthy savages, at no point did they ever ignore my PC, refuse to interact with my PC or exclude my PC from any of their shenanigans.

It didn't matter that my PC rebuffed their offers or derided them for being ridiculous. The offer was still extended the next time around with all the color and hostility you would expect from gruff people who get all but spat on whenever they came around town.

At no point did I ever get the impression of, "You, player, aren't welcome here." from them. Not one single time.

The Lodge? I can think of two "leaders" off the top of my head that will sit in the Inn and emote that they're sitting there, doing this or that at the bar or a table, but will not in any way respond to my PC.

I even tapped a certain female PC on the shoulder to get her attention and she quite literally stood up, opened the door and left without responding.

Then walked back in with another PC and BOTH of them ignored my attempts to get some interaction out of them. They sat at the table like there wasn't someone standing there, directly interfering with their conversation.

I'm not a big fan of playing RP police, but if you're going to have your PC ignore another PC you need to own it. You need to commit your PC by emoting, being rude or otherwise making it clear they're being snubbed.

Otherwise, it just comes across as "I don't want to play with you, player."

A recent incident in game resulted in my PC being banned from a part of the town. It was technically warranted and were the game larger and featured more avenues for players to congregate, it would have been pretty happy to run with it and let it turn into a long-running conflict.

However, all it really did was cut my access to interaction from two places in town to one. The results are:

1) I just don't bother logging in; it was a barely worth it to log when I had people to at least train and chat with and without that there is just no good reason for me to show up solo anymore.

2) A friend of mine agreed to keep playing the game after some experience orc-side caused them to want to quit the game full stop. Now we really have no where to do our thing, so they've gone back to Armageddon.

And really, so have I.

While it was a reasonable response, there should be more consideration made into how these choices will effect the game in it's current state.

That action cost the game one player for sure and when it comes down to it, I only log in when a friend wants to hang out and RP.

"@!4× you, this is our sandbox." is the impression I get from most of the people the staff have placed in charge of herding players around the town.

[Line here edited by Vwest: I'm thinking of a choice five letter word, right now.]

The Hillmen, Locke and his group, Toki and his crew? It's these people that carried the sphere on their shoulders and things have become completely stale for their relative absence.

Not because they're some great bastions of amazing RP, but because they were open doors and the players were leader enough to let people in on things, at least when it came time to go do something interesting.

Many of the people placed 'in charge' of other players officially have managed to turn logging into a game I was originally pretty enthusiastic about feel like having a conversation with a corpse.

Enjoy your private sandbox and your three person clique-clans, I'm going to go kill some scrab and RP with people -- something that has become pretty hard to do in SoI, lately.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby tehkory » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:54 pm

Nimrod? I'd rather just go ahead and spend my time, emote at something, ask if you're there, and move on with my life. If you're not there I'll just send in a support ticket.

Not a one of us needs to sit around emoting at something non-interactive, hoping that an Admin will hear, and hoping an Admin will feel like doing something about it.

There's a reason that petitions are used: they're logged. If nobody's there, my request still gets heard. It gets noticed. If someone uptop feels like deliberately ignoring those, that's fine. But I'm not wow'd by emoting at a bloodstain. If I want interaction, I'm direct. I ask for it. I ask -you- directly for it.

I'm not going to sit around writing an esayy about the bloodstain. Nor any other random thing in the gameworld, including doorguards and other NPCs I'd like to interact with. It's not my emoting style to spend time purple prose praising something, when I could just emote/petition and get back to characterization.

Expecting us to think when we've got a well-designed system that logs unheard requests is bad game design. Use the tools you're given, rather than eliminating them because some people use them poorly. As you ably demonstrated, people are going to use them poorly whether it's think -or- petition.

ETA:
Just like I'd rather use a hobbitmail to set up a meeting with someone!

And, uh. As I've said a millionbillion times: Hillmen are snarfagling great. And yes, I said snarfagle, because nobody read it the last twenty times I said it. Their implementation by Staff was arbitrary. The rules don't exist, or aren't followed, and they need to be. 's my only concern.

ETA Further:

And it looks like Staff are heading in the direction of rules'n'guidelines, and that's dandy. I'm happier.
Last edited by tehkory on Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Saellyn » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:33 pm

Vwest wrote:2) A friend of mine agreed to keep playing the game after some experience orc-side caused them to want to quit the game full stop. Now we really have no where to do our thing, so they've gone back to Armageddon.


Hope your friend isn't who I think it is, because there's only like two people I can think of who had bad experiences orc side, and they deserved it. The orc sphere isn't there to coddle you. If you go into the orc sphere, you go into it owning the fact that it's going to be harsh, mean, rude, and kick you around until you've got broken ribs. And then it's going to piss on you. If you OWN that piss and broken ribs, you make yourself into something. If you don't own it, and you reject it, you end up in a bad place.


Sorry he left. Sorry you're leaving. Sorry you have a bad experience. Maybe you did something to warrant the banishment. If you did, own it. Try to come to an agreement with the people who banished you. Offer to do work for them or something. If that doesn't work, go higher. Go above them. If you can't get something done, it's because you wouldn't work hard enough for it.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Raukran » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:44 pm

Vwest wrote:A recent incident in game resulted in my PC being banned from a part of the town. It was technically warranted and were the game larger and featured more avenues for players to congregate, it would have been pretty happy to run with it and let it turn into a long-running conflict.


I'm pretty sure I know who you play and what incident you're referring to. While I liked who I assume to be your character, as you stated yourself, it was warranted. RP to me is creating a believable character in a world created by others, shared by others. From a clan officer standpoint, it's absolutely disheartening to imagine someone quitting over a 1 week (OOC time scale) ban from three public rooms of the guardhouse. You made several points, Vwest, and it seems like much of your anger and frustration is being lumped together. For carrying out IC orders which were in turn IC consequences to IC actions, I hope it's not coming across as we're all giving you a big ol' Charlie Brown, "%@#! you!".

As I said before, I liked the character and was intending on trying to get some 1 on 1 time with you, but never had the proper opportunity. I noticed you stopped playing, but it never crossed by mind that it'd be directly related to RP you weren't happy with.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby toofast » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:48 pm

Ava wrote:how are newbies supposed to find the Hillmen?

- They are right outside Utterby, enmeshed with Utterby in terms of defense and trade - the main reasons for people to be in Utterby.

What's a regular Joe's excuse to go to those clans?
- See last answer.

Are they supposed to be open access?
- See last answer.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Ava » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:15 pm

Doesn't quite make sense when you misquote me like that.

I'm not sure the Hillmen are why, canonically, people come to Utterby.

I could be wrong.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Real » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:19 pm

He's saying they're enmeshed with defense and trade.
Everything gets smaller now the further that I go
Towards the mouth and the reunion of the known and the unknown
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Matt » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:27 pm

The Free People also come around town during peak times/IG dawns a lot. But everyone's in their unenterable clan halls most of the time.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Mithrandur » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:31 pm

Vwest wrote:The Lodge? I can think of two "leaders" off the top of my head that will sit in the Inn and emote that they're sitting there, doing this or that at the bar or a table, but will not in any way respond to my PC.



A lot of this is due to the 'leaders' of the Lodge having a lot on their plate at the moment, at least some of them. Even as is, the lodge is only just reaching about 80% functional of what it's supposed to be for players (a commission system for crafters, offices for the foremen, and so on). What this means is a lot of time said foremen are in talks with Imms about what the clan needs, what thing was implemented but doesn't work, and so on. Don't forge the Lodge is -the- biggest clan, and it also has the biggest hiccups and such in the game which are still getting ironed out. (Also, in regards to one certain foreman, nine times out of ten when he is seen in the Ironwood, it's because he's actually waiting to meet someone for business. I myself can say that some crafts are so time consuming that it leaves almost no time for social RP. I imagine even less so when you consider the needs of an entire clan of 25+ people)

Now, that aside, for everyone complaining about a lack of staff run events and plots and the like, hold your horses. Don't forget that many builders and staff have been busy just making sure the game is Functional, the Fun can come when we stop crashing every time people go out to hunt because something bleeds when it runs away.

Also, if you're -that- hard up for roleplay, give people a reason to interact with your character. Just sitting at the Inn and staring at the plate of food in front of you isn't going to get a lot of attention from that many people. Standing around and watching the crowd isn't going to do you any favors. While I know being proactive isn't something everyone is good at, sometimes you -do- have to make the first move.
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