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Concerns and Constructive Criticism

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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Raukran » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:37 pm

Matt wrote:The Free People also come around town during peak times/IG dawns a lot. But everyone's in their unenterable clan halls most of the time.


This. If people want to go outside with groups, try to be around during dawn/early morning. I play a lot like Matt, and too many times only a couple of people are to be found outside of clan halls. There's only four mornings IG per RL day, as far as I know, so if you legitimately want to do stuff, help us to help you.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby deerskin » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:49 am

So. I have some feedback I want to share for staff.

I have played some games out there on both sides of the game spectrum.

When a player sends in desperate petitions and a support ticket because they logged out in a room rented by someone else, a locked room, and that person poofs and this goes unhandled for 20 days (after which trying for over a week to locate the player IG with notifications) the response to a player should -never- be 'Hey, go post on the Forums and arrange to set up a meet with the player so you can get out of their room.' What the hell. There is no realistic reason my character would be locked in a rented room for however long 20 days RL compares to game time. Any other game would handle that appropriately and a staff member would trans them out and the character would go on with their life. I should not as a player be directed to open up communication with another player in an OOC capacity, forcing me to reveal who I play and forcing the other player to reveal who they play. I do not feel comfortable with that. I could have done that in the beginning and chose not to and waited semi patiently in hopes a staff member would help me out. I could also have just idled in the room waiting for the new renter to let me out but how in the world would I explain that IC?? Days and then weeks went by in silence and I just stopped bothering.

I feel wholly unimportant or necessary as a player of this game and am totally dubious I want to linger if that is how things are handled. Sorry guys.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Alcarin » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:55 am

deerskin wrote:So. I have some feedback I want to share for staff.

I have played some games out there on both sides of the game spectrum.

When a player sends in desperate petitions and a support ticket because they logged out in a room rented by someone else, a locked room, and that person poofs and this goes unhandled for 20 days (after which trying for over a week to locate the player IG with notifications) the response to a player should -never- be 'Hey, go post on the Forums and arrange to set up a meet with the player so you can get out of their room.' What the hell. There is no realistic reason my character would be locked in a rented room for however long 20 days RL compares to game time. Any other game would handle that appropriately and a staff member would trans them out and the character would go on with their life. I should not as a player be directed to open up communication with another player in an OOC capacity, forcing me to reveal who I play and forcing the other player to reveal who they play. I do not feel comfortable with that. I could have done that in the beginning and chose not to and waited semi patiently in hopes a staff member would help me out. I could also have just idled in the room waiting for the new renter to let me out but how in the world would I explain that IC?? Days and then weeks went by in silence and I just stopped bothering.

I feel wholly unimportant or necessary as a player of this game and am totally dubious I want to linger if that is how things are handled. Sorry guys.


Actually, speaking as the staffer who handled that ticket, I didn't understand that to be your issue at all. I've sent you a PM to get this ironed out, please accept my apologies!
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby EltanimRas » Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:10 am

Songweaver wrote:petition

Nimrod wrote:think

Kory wrote:petition

I can live with either of these, but I think I'd prefer an officially published, staff-wide policy, similar to the orc-side 'tightening things up' announcement.

Different admins may prefer different things, but if I as a player just want to know what those bloodstains look like, I don't want to have to guess which staffer is online. (Yes, I know everyone I'm quoting isn't staff, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a similar diversity of preferences if we surveyed, say, our current RPAs.)

Raukran wrote:
Matt wrote:The Free People also come around town during peak times/IG dawns a lot. But everyone's in their unenterable clan halls most of the time.

This. If people want to go outside with groups, try to be around during dawn/early morning.

I hate going outside with groups. :P

I want people hanging around all night long in clanhalls and/or other places I can walk to without going through pitch blackness and wolves.

Also, doorbells. Lots of doorbells. They're like notify, but IC, and for clans you don't even belong to. Doorbells are awesome.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Rivean » Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:34 am

EltanimRas wrote:
Songweaver wrote:petition

Nimrod wrote:think

Kory wrote:petition

I can live with either of these, but I think I'd prefer an officially published, staff-wide policy, similar to the orc-side 'tightening things up' announcement.

Different admins may prefer different things, but if I as a player just want to know what those bloodstains look like, I don't want to have to guess which staffer is online. (Yes, I know everyone I'm quoting isn't staff, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a similar diversity of preferences if we surveyed, say, our current RPAs.)


Boy, this thread has spread to every topic imaginable, hasn't it? We need to step in and clean this up a bit. I might make a clean up post when I'm more awake.

On petition vs think:

I side definitely with Kory on this one, and am not so enthused by Eltanimras' 'Pick whichever you prefer and let us know' idea.

The fact is that both petition and think have different functions. The fact that petitions are recorded and thinks are not makes it INFINITELY more useful when needed for the purposes of reaching staff on an OOC level (even if for IC, 'Please give me info about this bloodstain' reasons).

Also PLEASE don't make it so that my thinks are IC petitions - I have a hard enough time using the think command as it is, and this would totally ruin it for me. Different people use thinks in different ways. I use think almost exclusively to express opinions my PC chooses not to air in the presence of others.

Which also means, incidentally, that petition is more player-neutral, whereas different players use think in different ways, and consequently, if we follow the Nimrod method, we're going to end up with some players who have access to more IC information than others, access to more NPC animations than others, etc, and there's absolutely 0 justification for that information gap from an IC standpoint.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Frigga » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:45 am

Just to further note about this:

Any other game would handle that appropriately and a staff member would trans them out and the character would go on with their life.


This is what happened - the PC in question was set to a public area (the main Inn room) after noticing petitions. The failure on staff's part was not checking that there was a ticket on the matter as a way of communication to the player - you, that this had been done, sorry about that!
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Icarus » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:04 am

If you are in the human sphere, petitions get my attention. Thinks are really great, but yah. Petitions if you need something right then that I could not assist with later on. Ticket if it's something non right that moment critical.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby tehkory » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:59 am

And yet, Rivean, I might go so far as to say that all the problems in this thread come from the same causal root. The issue still is communication and rules.

And, happily, they see problems with it, too. My real worry was that they wouldn't see anything wrong at all.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Letters » Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:53 pm

The game already felt like Survival Horror: Middle-earth edition. Weather changes and such just seem to reinforce that as the staff vision, but I don't know if it is or not.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Icarus » Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:16 pm

I personally would encourage you to log in and give it a try, since you haven't been IG since July 15th.

Mirkwood is supposed to be dark, dangerous, and not something one can just ignore. Obviously open will have a significantly larger peaceful happy area, but right now we are still in alpha, which means we introduce, test, and calibrate a wide range of elements. Weather is part of that, since our code base still technically thinks we are on a moon.

Alpha: We introduce, test, and calibrate elements that we hope to have in the final game. Game centered in Utterby.

Beta: Polishing those elements, getting everything signed off and environs for open built. Centered around Utterby.

Open: Everything formerly tested placed into Laketown, tested again, and opened to play.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Hawkwind » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:54 pm

Letters wrote:The game already felt like Survival Horror: Middle-earth edition. Weather changes and such just seem to reinforce that as the staff vision, but I don't know if it is or not.


We are lab rats, guinea pigs and petri dishes. It is now the staff have the chance to change, switch, try new things, try old things a different way, introduce massively game borking features without serious consequences.

I will echo what other players have said earlier in that the staff should not bother with plots and focus on stability, features and a finished product. But then the only rewarding part of being an RPA/staffer is plots and interacting with players so it's a double edged sword.

Recently we've learned that weather can kill and that when forts spring up out of the ground we get OOCly peeved off. :lol:
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Red » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:23 pm

I think people have lost focus a little bit. As mentioned earlier, this is Alpha. This is a time to test new code, develop the environment and build the community and culture of the game we want as SOI3. No one can dispute the administrators have done a solid job of getting us to where we need to be.

Some of you need to cut your OOC channels and just play the damn game because you’re getting caught up in a network of people who have always felt like they were on the underside of apparent favouritism and will forever moan and groan at the achievements and success of other players.

Also to note, these forums are growing increasingly more hostile.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Jeshin » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:34 pm

Personally I have always found it is better to have it out on the forums and be able to bring any concern to the public rather than try and pick and choose which is acceptable.

I do think the forums can be a little hostile, but that is also just a sign of people being passionate about the game (or just dicks). In some cases that's a good thing to have. All said and done this thread was waaaaaaay more tame and productive than I thought it'd be. Staff participation and all.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby tehkory » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:53 pm

Jeshin wrote:Personally I have always found it is better to have it out on the forums and be able to bring any concern to the public rather than try and pick and choose which is acceptable.

I do think the forums can be a little hostile, but that is also just a sign of people being passionate about the game (or just dicks). In some cases that's a good thing to have. All said and done this thread was waaaaaaay more tame and productive than I thought it'd be. Staff participation and all.


I'm pretty pleased with the Staff. Having dissented some, the pbase was preeeeeeeetty damn hostile and insulting in their suggestions.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby EltanimRas » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:47 am

Icarus wrote:I personally would encourage you to log in and give it a try, since you haven't been IG since <x date>.

While it's a fair point that some of us could stand to play more, may I request that admins refrain from revealing specific dates on the forums?

These sorts of details can be a big hint about who plays who.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Rivean » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:53 am

tehkory wrote:
Jeshin wrote:Personally I have always found it is better to have it out on the forums and be able to bring any concern to the public rather than try and pick and choose which is acceptable.

I do think the forums can be a little hostile, but that is also just a sign of people being passionate about the game (or just dicks). In some cases that's a good thing to have. All said and done this thread was waaaaaaay more tame and productive than I thought it'd be. Staff participation and all.


I'm pretty pleased with the Staff. Having dissented some, the pbase was preeeeeeeetty damn hostile and insulting in their suggestions.


I agree. I think a lot of the staff have shown a very laudable level of maturity. <3 you guys.

[Reposted because it was originally posted under the wife's account. My brain is still waking up.]
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Fulgrim » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:57 am

Nimrod, Icarus, Frigga, Tiamat--all these people and so far every one of the new hires have a pretty high level of maturity, and most of the time even if they have a bad thought or become negative they'd probably rather bear it with a grin and then hash it out in private.

You guys are at the forefront of our thoughts, or at least definitely mine. I only volunteered to make the game a more fun, active and interesting place for the people I've been playing with up 'til now. Not everyone likes me, some even hate me, and I'm pretty willing to indiscriminately provide entertainment to both sides just because I can.

I imagine similar sentiments follow from elsewhere. This is a place of passion but primarily it should be a place of fun. Please log in and have fun. A lot of the time fun has to be created from one's own hands, though with all these new RPAs, who's to say they can't make time for you too, now?
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Matt » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:14 am

Letters you're on the forums complaining about stuff IG and you haven't even logged in in three weeks? Are you trolling or what?
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby tehkory » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:30 am

Matt wrote:Letters you're on the forums complaining about stuff IG and you haven't even logged in in three weeks? Are you trolling or what?


To be fair, so am I. I don't think it entirely delegitimizes either my complaints or his. These are issues that began months ago, and obviously are still relevant. Just because someone quit playing doesn't mean the reasons they quit aren't worth repeating, y'know?

But, for my part, I should be free from work and able to play once more.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Matt » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:37 am

I'm not sure his reasoning is the same as yours. His seems pretty petty. If you're not even attempting to play the game getting on the forums and giving negative input on things you haven't even seen IG seems a little much to me.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Icarus » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:47 am

Well, we have a fresh new batch of staff, including some folks who have /already/ done amazing work, in just a week or so. It really is quite remarkable.

Things are slowly getting brought online, a nice expansion to Utterby is being sorted IG, and staff have quite a few threads on our end discussing how things like player shops and housing will work, farming is having its initial look at, etc etc.

It's not perfect, but I really do think staff have taken to heart quite a number of things discussed in this thread. Will we make more screwups? Certainly! Will we make fewer of them? I truly believe so, and with every passing week we become a bit more organized, a bit more on the ball, etc.

Now I just need to get new shield crafts IG....
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby tehkory » Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:18 pm

Icarus wrote:Well, we have a fresh new batch of staff, including some folks who have /already/ done amazing work, in just a week or so. It really is quite remarkable.

Things are slowly getting brought online, a nice expansion to Utterby is being sorted IG, and staff have quite a few threads on our end discussing how things like player shops and housing will work, farming is having its initial look at, etc etc.

It's not perfect, but I really do think staff have taken to heart quite a number of things discussed in this thread. Will we make more screwups? Certainly! Will we make fewer of them? I truly believe so, and with every passing week we become a bit more organized, a bit more on the ball, etc.

Now I just need to get new shield crafts IG....

Something I've failed to mention is something you so far have avoided, and it's the thing that killed Parallel's first iteration. It's something you and your team seem to do inherently, and that's amazing.

Design by committee. Staff held a vote about the very setting and theme of the game. Then they built that and another sphere utterly unlike it, and that's because that was what they really wanted. And the game never went anywhere because it was designed as all things to all people.

Avoid that, please. Read these threads of complaints and concerns.remember that not a one of you is a player(by your own rules) and many of you haven't been for years. Remember that we are your links to games and plots and code, good and bad, that you may never have heard of, much less played under. We are a resource for informed feedback.

But never ever let us be the committee by which you design your game. Build and prog and code and plot the game YOU want. A game run like that with ten players is better than one run by committee with forty.

Keep up the great work, in other words.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Cola » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:18 pm

First: I want to express something here even at the risk of being labeled a brown nose. But I believe that those who might think it brown-nosing will understand it not to be the case.

Wow.

My limited expectations of what this game would be in 'alpha' have been wildly exceeded! Really. Wow. What a great, playable system you folks have already put together.

I've been browsing this thread and I find it largely mature and respectful. I believe this player-base deserves its own "wow" for their commitment and maturity here.

So yeah, there's been some mistakes and issues that should be addressed. I've also raised a couple issues with staff privately and challenged them to do some things differently in the future. (And hopefully raising those issues will make clear to them that I'm not just brown-nosing here.)

I don't know who Saellyn is, or how much authority they have over the orc sphere, but here something he posted in this tread recently:

Saellyn wrote: I can think of who had bad experiences orc side, and they deserved it. The orc sphere isn't there to coddle you. If you go into the orc sphere, you go into it owning the fact that it's going to be harsh, mean, rude, and kick you around until you've got broken ribs. And then it's going to piss on you. If you OWN that piss and broken ribs, you make yourself into something. If you don't own it, and you reject it, you end up in a bad place.

Sorry he left. Sorry you're leaving. Sorry you have a bad experience. Maybe you did something to warrant the banishment. If you did, own it. Try to come to an agreement with the people who banished you. Offer to do work for them or something. If that doesn't work, go higher. Go above them. If you can't get something done, it's because you wouldn't work hard enough for it.


I want to express my concern about this attitude. I too started a character in that sphere, and I quickly was put off by it. I believe the sphere could be much more than it is. But I'm not sure what the community wants from this sphere.

A home for players who tend to be griefers? That seems to be how Saellyn has described it. The feeling I got from the sphere is that it is one-dimensional: one competes there for how 'evil' they can portray their character. How much of a bully they can be. I brought an odd-ball character into the sphere, and had fun... and I think the other players had some fun... until the sphere leader appeared and shut it down completely, forcing all RP into the tired old drill-sergeant/recruit trope, insisting (OOCly) that that was the only way orc culture could be portrayed at SoI; the only means by which a story that could be told there. Saellyn's post reinforced that for me. I don't wish to 'blame' him for this approach. I'm guessing it is what he believes is the (only) approach the staff and community want. But I also believe there's much more that can be done with that sphere! While the 'bladeboss' might run the martial arm in that way, I believe we as a community can create much more space for a variety of roles to flourish in that sphere. I think it would benefit the game for a new thread to be established to discuss such ideas.

The orc sphere has a large collection of PC orc 'heads' who failed in the sphere in some way or another. This shouldn't be a source of pride or means of intimidation for those who manage the sphere. It should be perceived a sign of a significant problem the game should tackle.

One thing I would suggest is to continue to run the martial group with such a vicious, iron-hand, but also create a supporting 'orc village' and give characters (and players) much more independence and room for variety if they are in that village.

I think we can do much better than just giving griefers a space to grief each other, and give them just enough rope/freedom to occasionally grief the other sphere, and thus allow the heroes to rush in and be heroes by slaying or putting them back in their place.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Ava » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:34 pm

Cola, maybe come give Utterby-side a try for a while, then return to Orc later? Although it seems like it might be a fun time to stick around, since Fulgrim's been hired to RPA exclusively over there.

Either way, maybe a change in scenery could help. :)
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Cola » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:12 pm

Ava wrote:Cola, maybe come give Utterby-side a try for a while, then return to Orc later? Although it seems like it might be a fun time to stick around, since Fulgrim's been hired to RPA exclusively over there.

Either way, maybe a change in scenery could help. :)


Sorry, No. I am completely turned off by the sphere as it is. Completely.

I want to try again in the Utterby-side, and am waiting for character approval.
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