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Concerns and Constructive Criticism

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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Jeshin » Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:06 pm

To my knowledge Saellyn is not a guide nor a staffer so he has no other weighted opinion in a sphere than any other player giving you their opinion. That being said, the orc sphere is niche, and while it hasn't had the same issues at Utterby perhaps that is a drawback.

Better to have issues early, then get into bad habits and have to change. I don't follow the orc sphere much but they have some top notch RPers over there and some pretty smart staffers.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Justanothacivy » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:19 pm

All I can offer is to get on the wiki and ask around on the boards to help understand orcish society and roleplay before making a character next time.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Cola » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:56 pm

Jeshin wrote:To my knowledge Saellyn is not a guide nor a staffer so he has no other weighted opinion in a sphere than any other player giving you their opinion.


In my opinion he accurately described the environment, nonetheless.

Justanothacivy wrote:All I can offer is to get on the wiki and ask around on the boards to help understand orcish society and roleplay before making a character next time.


I found nothing in the Wiki or on the boards to prepare me for my experience in the orc sphere. However, something exists on the boards now ;)

Don't get me wrong. In one way, the 'orc sphere' is a brilliant device to deal with griefers that neither bans them nor lets them run wild. The only problem is that players who are not griefers can easily stumble into the sphere, and risk being turned off to SoI entirely. I think the sphere either has to make a place for those non-griefers, or the game needs to do a better job of warning them away.

Anyway, it looks like I too am going back to Arm, such as it is.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Justanothacivy » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:19 pm

That is a total lack of effort on your part then. Please. If you don't like the sphere don't play in it.

Do not go putting a label like 'griefer' on a group of players who tried for hours to interact with you when it was obvious you had no idea of the setting. Not only did they give you the full attention you demanded you were even taken aside OOC'ly for extra help.

I have no issue with players that want to 'play house'. It's niche and some folk really love it. Just remember next time to read a few docs and ask for help when you need it.

I don't know if you have problem roleplaying following authority or what but we tried to help. Not to mention I was actually looking forward to how your charater developed.

Have fun on Arm. But make sure to read some docs there too. They have a very rich setting of how their proper society and culture is to be roleplayed. ;)
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Icarus » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:22 pm

Be nice.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby likui » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:01 pm

On the subject of griefers, I only met one briefly during my entire time on SoI...briefly because I killed his/her character less than 15 minutes after meeting him. He/she also had the distinction of being my only pvp kill on SoI.

Perhaps my definition of griefers is very different from others'? :?
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby EltanimRas » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:37 pm

likui wrote:Perhaps my definition of griefers is very different from others'? :?

Well, there was this one guy who killed my PC only fifteen minutes after meeting him ... :P

Cola wrote:until the sphere leader appeared and shut it down completely, forcing all RP into the tired old drill-sergeant/recruit trope

I've seen this happen human-side, too, both in the game's current incarnation and in former ones. Most often, it seems to be a misguided attempt at 'helpfulness': either "Oh no, a military PC not doing military things! Their player must be sad!" or "Oh no, a combat PC not doing as much combat training as much as possible! They're going to get eaten by wargs! (And then their player will be sad!)"

Of course, sometimes it's perfectly IC, especially if your PC is a recruit under the other's command.

Cola wrote:One thing I would suggest is to continue to run the martial group with such a vicious, iron-hand, but also create a supporting 'orc village' and give characters (and players) much more independence and room for variety if they are in that village.

It's been my experience that the orc sphere already functions in a roughly similar way to what you're suggesting, in that orcs with a useful craft skill will feel much less pressure to participate many of the martial group's activities. I won't name names, but I've certainly seen plenty of long-lived 'oddball' concepts there that go beyond 'who can be the most evil'.

[ETA: I wouldn't be surprised if most orc players' character concepts mixed all three elements -- military recruit / conscript labor, oddball, and 'evil'.]

Anyway, here's hoping you find a niche that suits you in Utterby. Best of luck!
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Saellyn » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:23 am

The Orc Sphere isn't where griefers go. It's where people who want a harder existence go. There's nothing easy about being an orc. If you act like an asshole in the Orc Sphere, to the wrong person, you'll get an ass kicking.

But that ass kicking is us trying to teach you how to act. It's not because we hate you, it's because we want you to grow and develop into an incredible Orc who can do anything they want to do. We -want- you to grow, we -want- you to be a badass, but we want you to do it the smart way. Don't JUST keep acting like a badass. Learn from the beating. Realize, as a character, that you have met an orc that is better than you - and then, when you do that, realize this.

You got a lot of training to do. And training under an orc that can beat you, or a whole group of orcs? That's a fast track to being GREAT as an orc. Orcs like that can do anything.

Training as an orc means accepting that you're not top dog. Even if you only do four skillpicks and start with better skills, you're still the bottom dog in the group when you show up. Grow from that. Accept starting at the bottom, work your way up, and you'll learn a lot of things from the orc players.


And no, I'm not a guide or a helper or even an immortal. I'm just a player who wants to help other players grow.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby likui » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:44 am

I find it hard to believe someone would have difficulty in such groups because my impression of the dynamics of Orc clans was pretty simple and straightforward. Figuring out who you can trust (nobody), who you need to respect/fear (whoever is more powerful than you), and how you can rise in prominence (obey those you know who are stronger, demonstrate your usefulness to the group, and try to survive long enough till a higher rank becomes available through someone's untimely demise) is not complicated and, unlike human clans where people constantly plot against you while smiling or worse, exclude you, you pretty much know where everyone stands.

If it weren't for my difficulty and sense of awkwardness with "orc-speech" manner of slang, I would have played orcs much more frequently.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Matt » Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:17 pm

Saellyn wrote:The Orc Sphere isn't where griefers go. It's where people who want a harder existence go. There's nothing easy about being an orc. If you act like an asshole in the Orc Sphere, to the wrong person, you'll get an ass kicking.

But that ass kicking is us trying to teach you how to act. It's not because we hate you, it's because we want you to grow and develop into an incredible Orc who can do anything they want to do. We -want- you to grow, we -want- you to be a badass, but we want you to do it the smart way. Don't JUST keep acting like a badass. Learn from the beating. Realize, as a character, that you have met an orc that is better than you - and then, when you do that, realize this.

You got a lot of training to do. And training under an orc that can beat you, or a whole group of orcs? That's a fast track to being GREAT as an orc. Orcs like that can do anything.

Training as an orc means accepting that you're not top dog. Even if you only do four skillpicks and start with better skills, you're still the bottom dog in the group when you show up. Grow from that. Accept starting at the bottom, work your way up, and you'll learn a lot of things from the orc players.


And no, I'm not a guide or a helper or even an immortal. I'm just a player who wants to help other players grow.


This seems like a pretty extreme RP police attitude. 'Act the way I want you to/the way I think orcs should act or I'll use my grinded up skills to beat you uncon until you do.'
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby likui » Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:38 pm

Matt wrote:
Saellyn wrote:The Orc Sphere isn't where griefers go. It's where people who want a harder existence go. There's nothing easy about being an orc. If you act like an asshole in the Orc Sphere, to the wrong person, you'll get an ass kicking.

But that ass kicking is us trying to teach you how to act. It's not because we hate you, it's because we want you to grow and develop into an incredible Orc who can do anything they want to do. We -want- you to grow, we -want- you to be a badass, but we want you to do it the smart way. Don't JUST keep acting like a badass. Learn from the beating. Realize, as a character, that you have met an orc that is better than you - and then, when you do that, realize this.

You got a lot of training to do. And training under an orc that can beat you, or a whole group of orcs? That's a fast track to being GREAT as an orc. Orcs like that can do anything.

Training as an orc means accepting that you're not top dog. Even if you only do four skillpicks and start with better skills, you're still the bottom dog in the group when you show up. Grow from that. Accept starting at the bottom, work your way up, and you'll learn a lot of things from the orc players.


And no, I'm not a guide or a helper or even an immortal. I'm just a player who wants to help other players grow.


This seems like a pretty extreme RP police attitude. 'Act the way I want you to/the way I think orcs should act or I'll use my grinded up skills to beat you uncon until you do.'


I don't know what happened in this situation, but back in the old days of MM they simply killed you in an alley for a perceived insult, took your equipment, and pawned it. And I'd even prefer that to the old-school Gondorian RP policing behavior of continuously ignoring and excluding. Ironically, reading these comments is making me want to play an orc as my next pc.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby toofast » Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:49 pm

haha, you don't have to tell matt about old MM. Yeah, orcs are going to beat you silly in-game if you act like a punk and don't act like an individual who has managed to survive for 18+ years and picked up some skills along the way. I think that's all that needs saying, don't need to act like a tough guy on the forums and make a twisted explanation on how in-game actions are actually a big charade to make everyone awesome. Play your orc how you think is acceptable based off lore, and if you're an idiot other players will come down on you or the staff will. That's just common sense.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Saellyn » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:46 pm

It's not RP policing at all, it's intelligence. If you act like a total badass and shit on orcs who are better than you, then you're GOING to get smacked down hardcore. The purpose of my statement is to tell people that there's a time and place for that kind of attitude.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby hobbitboots » Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:01 pm

Reminding people that actions have consequences is fine, but unless you're staff, you need to be mindful about how you go about telling people that they're playing their characters wrong. It's rude and sanctimonious.

As a rule, I don't critique other's roleplay unless I'm being invited to.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby likui » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:39 pm

No intention of contradicting myself, but excessive RP policing can get a little tiresome although I guess I just haven't seen it that much on the Mordor side.

Part of the problem IMHO is lack of hobbitmail. I've exchanged plenty of advice (and some constructive criticism) through HM, much of what could have been interpreted as RP policing had I or the other players did it on the forums or in-game, as if to shame the individual. Restoring HM would probably help reduce the incidence.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Fulgrim » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:13 pm

It's broken.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby tehkory » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:36 pm

Fulgrim wrote:It's broken.

Yeah. It's just unfortunately also incredibly important that it be fixed, and incredibly low on the priority list for fixes D=.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby EltanimRas » Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:55 am

Hobbitmail [and the accompanying ability to arrange 'chance' meetings] would also address my concerns with the Hillmen/Free People/Barge Hermits.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Fulgrim » Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:06 am

Like Kory said, it's something that would be great to have back, but if it hasn't been fixed, it's either because compared to the things we're working on that might make the game more fun and form a consistent vision, is not high on the list of priorities.

Also I remember four years ago when I was playing Atonement, I had access to hobbit mail but I didn't use it to arrange meetings with other characters. I realize not everyone has the time for that, or for people who have off peak hours it's not incredibly viable, but...

What was I saying again? That I have too much free time?

Oh...okay...well. :(
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby EltanimRas » Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:23 am

EltanimRas wrote:Fix it NAO!! :evil:

Oh, wait, that's not what I said.

Fulgrim wrote:Like Kory said, it's something that would be great to have back, but if it hasn't been fixed, it's either because compared to the things we're working on that might make the game more fun and form a consistent vision, is not high on the list of priorities.

With all due respect to the hard and necessary work put in by all SoI's coders and builders, now and over the years, what ultimately makes this game fun for me is other players and their characters.

... but different players find value in different things, and things will be fixed when they're fixed. That's fine.

[Edited to remove a paragraph that didn't make sense, since it was based on my misreading of Fulgrim's post. Oops! Long story short, yes, I do play off-peak, and it does play a not insignificant role in my personal love for hobbitmail.]
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Ava » Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:47 pm

We're coming up on three weeks since the OP. Do people feel like their concerns and criticisms have been resolved? On their way to resolving? Do things seem like they're headed in the same direction as before?
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby EltanimRas » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:06 am

1. The "Free People", Hillmen, Beornings, and magical ponies can be difficult to distinguish, which doesn't make a ton of IC sense. The same is also true for the leadership of many inside-the-walls-groups.

General vNPC gossip should be able to tell my barge-newbie who the Guard recruiters and Lodge foremen are. It should be able to tell her who does the hiring for the inn, and it should be able to identify at least a few of the most prominent and best-known PCs associated with the fphbmp camp. It should also, incidentally, be able to tell her that there exists a militia in addition to the Guard force, and that their members wear yellow and red armbands, respectively. It should mention the Lodge foremen's signet rings.

Note when I say 'general vNPC gossip', I mean either (a) the wiki, (b) a low-spam 'announcement'-type IG board (possibly on the barge?), (c) an interactive 'welcome' NPC ('ask bargemaster jobs', etc.), (d) in-game help files, or (e) something roughly similar. I don't mean these forums.

2. Closed clanhalls can be a challenge. I understand the fphbmp camp is moving in closer to the town, which is great. It should be more accessible to non-combat and new PCs very soon. However, the existing clanhalls would still be vastly improved by the addition of doorbells, and the Guard and fphbmp camp could really use publicly accessible message boards like the one the Lodge already has. The inn could possibly use a more inn-business-specific one (perhaps in the public kitchen?) as well.

3. The river has been bringing some Mirkwood scariness into the lives of townies and non-combat PCs, which seems like a good thing.

4. I'm sure the staff have fair and reasonable ideas about how building projects should work, but if you're a relatively new SoI player (because Arm is very different in this respect), it isn't at all obvious either (a) what kinds of things are and aren't possible or (b) how one goes about proposing and following through on a building project. An official OOC document with some general guidelines and step-by-step examples could be a big help here.

5. I see significantly more animations when I play with some characters than with others. Now, there are a lot of potential reasons for this. Maybe it's a time of day thing, and I just happen to see X characters when Y RPA is on. Maybe it's that those PCs think more than others. Maybe it's that they're already connected to certain plots and thus in a position where they logically ought to receive follow-up animations -- or where they logically ought to be seeking out the next plot point IC.

So ... while I'm not saying we should grab the torches and pitchforks and shout "Favoritism!", I do think it's something staff may need to be careful of, especially on the last point (where animations and plot points have a natural tendency to snowball, as it were).

One thing I think might be neat to see on this front would be if some of our most active RPAs could be prepped to play at least a few of Utterby's 'important NPCs' on casual stops by the inn for a drink. As things stand, it's pretty easy to forget most of them exist, but they could be a fun way to bring some of the local backstory to life (and involve unclanned newbies who are afraid of wolves/fish/spiders while we're at it).
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Fulgrim » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:03 am

I play several NPCs cross-sphere. I animate when people are around and I'm watching. I also animate when people try interacting with them, I'm online, and they pet up. Now, actually, allow me to rephrase, I do that if it were to ever happen, but so far I've not seen one petition asking Fulgrim specifically to animate something or for a specific NPC to be animated. The willingness of players to ask for plot is actually relatively low compared to the number of people who want plot fed to them.

I'm willing to give plot to both groups, but compared to the people who efficiently and effectively pick up and then carry the plot, hopefully to other people, the group that sits and waits will see ought less of it, sure. I try to distribute it fairly and in a way that'll have trickle down as much as possible.

ETA: Bold for importance. I know I sound like a dick, but it's a real issue, as much as the possibility (very real) of favoritism. If there's going to be accusations or even indirect rumblings of it going around, I feel within my right to get that out there at the very least.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby EltanimRas » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:20 am

Fulgrim wrote:I play several NPCs cross-sphere. I animate when people are around and I'm watching.

I've seen some fantastic NPC and vNPC animations (mostly, I suspect, yours and Frigga's), and I'm very happy about them.

Whether it's a matter of coincidence, design, or just who's authorized to play whom, though, what I've seen has been distinctly concentrated in 'background flavor' / 'general public opinion' realm of things. Barmaids, drunks, guards -- I love them all, but they seem relatively limited in how much of the political structure, tensions, and so forth that they can bring out, relative to some of the figures named in the wiki.

Also, those named figures generally aren't publicly accessible human-side, so far as I understand the game setup. There's no town hall or mayor's office; these people don't have coded homes. They only exist virtually, which makes it hard to seek them out IC even if your PC would have reason to do so.

Fulgrim wrote: I also animate when people try interacting with them, I'm online, and they pet up. Now, actually, allow me to rephrase, I do that if it were to ever happen, but so far I've not seen one petition asking Fulgrim specifically to animate something or for a specific NPC to be animated. The willingness of players to ask for plot is actually relatively low compared to the number of people who want plot fed to them.

[...]

ETA: Bold for importance. I know I sound like a dick, but it's a real issue, as much as the possibility (very real) of favoritism. If there's going to be accusations or even indirect rumblings of it going around, I feel within my right to get that out there at the very least.

No, I think this goes right to the heart of where player perceptions of favoritism come from. It's a good point, and one worth exploring further.

We have players from all eras of SoI, from Arm, from Atonement/Parallel, and even from none of the above. And SoI3 is still new; it's still in Alpha. Player expectations and norms about when it's okay to petition, what can be requested in a support ticket or a PM, and what should be pursued by strictly IC means if it's to happen at all are all over the place.

Much the same can be said about player ideas about when and how to ask for NPC animations. Some people are comfortable with it whenever it'd be ICly logical for their PC to talk with the NPC in question. Others are comfortable asking only in the context of some larger, multi-PC plot. Some may take "Available Staff: None" literally; others may feel like requesting an animation is a kind of cheating or 'asking for favoritism'. Some of us just have an irrational fear of being scolded for bothering the admins. And when different admins enjoy and are bothered by different things, it only gets more confusing.

[Asking for an animation can be awkward for other reasons, too -- like when your PC has ICly been to an NPC healer dozens of times over the course of several IC months, but you don't OOCly have the first clue about their name, personality, or much of anything. (Actually, consider this my vote for adding mini-blurbs for some of these public NPCs -- guards and barmaids too! -- to the wiki.)]

Fulgrim wrote:I'm willing to give plot to both groups, but compared to the people who efficiently and effectively pick up and then carry the plot, hopefully to other people, the group that sits and waits will see ought less of it, sure. I try to distribute it fairly and in a way that'll have trickle down as much as possible.

I'm not saying there aren't good reasons to give plot preferentially to active, plot-spreading, board-post-making PCs. I'm just encouraging us to (a) be careful that this doesn't become self-perpetuating in a Jim gets plot because Jim shares plot because Jim gets plot because ... way and (b) to be as transparent as possible (preferably in a permanent guide, rather than here in the forums) about what good OOC citizenship on the players' part looks like when it comes to plot, animations, building, special requests/apps, and so forth.

So, TL;DR:

1. What does good, constructive 'asking for plot' look like? What does it not look like? How much is too much; how often is too often? How small and personal is too small and personal?
2. When players do get plot points, animations, or other admin support, how can they best handle them so as to make everyone (staff, other players, etc.) as happy as possible?
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Frigga » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:27 am

There's no town hall or mayor's office; these people don't have coded homes. They only exist virtually, which makes it hard to seek them out IC even if your PC would have reason to do so.


There is no "town hall" persay (though an interesting idea, perhaps, for the future) but - all of the Overseers, the Master, and the Captain have offices in their respective places of work. Just a thought about here to potentially go look for them should the interest/need arise.

(Actually, consider this my vote for adding mini-blurbs for some of these public NPCs -- guards and barmaids too! -- to the wiki.)]


Good idea!
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