It is currently Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:53 am
Change font size

General Discussion

Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Discuss game issues here.

Moderator: Elder Staff

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby bjg2k1us » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:11 pm

Regardless of anything else, this:

When this is not the case, you get the current situation: the Guard's job has been taken over by a private clan, so the Guard has largely stopped trying. Too many dawns stood in the yard with nobody else showing up; too many instances of reading on the inn board how your job was done for you, before you even knew anything had happened, by people unfettered by the constraints and expectations that come with a military clan.


was always the bane of 'official' clans back in old SOI. Because official clans have rules and regulations, when someone comes up with 'a really cool idea' for their own awesome clan that fills the same role with none of those pesky restrictions, it usually ends up absolutely gutting the supposed establishment. This is why 'a really cool idea' isn't always a good enough reason on its own to allow a concept in - no one wants to play Average Army Scout when you allow in The Badass Rangers, and the situation isn't made any better when everyone is led to believe that Average Army Scout is the only option, but the special few who asked for The Badass Rangers get them anyways.

It's frustrating that this same mistake keeps getting made over and over, in every iteration of SOI. But it's Alpha... maybe by Beta it can be ironed out?
User avatar
bjg2k1us
Dwarf Recruit
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:36 pm

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Matt » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:23 pm

Letters wrote:I thought Rhino did fantastically given that he was sort of stuck as the lone RPA for a few months.

[/derail]


... x 1000.
Matt
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 533
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:47 pm

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Hazgarn » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:40 pm

Letters wrote:But Beornings? What on earth? Beornings aren't even a thing until after the Battle of the Five Armies.

I haven't read the books since high school, but if this is accurate then, yeah, having Beornings in-game is kind of weird at this point.

I don't really have a lot of input toward the overall complaints vs. Hillmen and plots. I'm the least proactive player in the world, so I'll stay out of all that. But this is a detail that's been brought up multiple times that no one has really addressed.
SOI Mirkwood Map
SOI Wilderlands Map

I am also a Guide. Feel free to contact me through AIM or PM with questions about the game.
User avatar
Hazgarn
Cartographer
 
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 9:35 am
Location: Sacramento, Ca

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Songweaver » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:47 pm

Hazgarn wrote:
Letters wrote:But Beornings? What on earth? Beornings aren't even a thing until after the Battle of the Five Armies.

I haven't read the books since high school, but if this is accurate then, yeah, having Beornings in-game is kind of weird at this point.

I don't really have a lot of input toward the overall complaints vs. Hillmen and plots. I'm the least proactive player in the world, so I'll stay out of all that. But this is a detail that's been brought up multiple times that no one has really addressed.


I'll address it. It's all speculative whether or not Beorn had followers before the Battle of Five Armies. Tolkien does not state one way or another, though perhaps the premiere Tolkien scholar believes that Beorn did have followers already at the start of The Hobbit. Like many things in Middle-Earth, there's no straight answer because Beornings were never the focus of the story. You have to extrapolate, just like you have to extrapolate to consider the existence of Utterby at all.
User avatar
Songweaver
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:21 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby krelm » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:48 pm

Hazgarn wrote:But this is a detail that's been brought up multiple times that no one has really addressed.


How would it even be addressed? Surprise, nobody can be hillmen anymore, we've killed all your PCs and you have to roll new ones. The fort outside has been erased off the map, we're just going to pretend it never happened.

That was an exaggeration, for the record.
One among the fence.
User avatar
krelm
Calce Ferio asini Operarius
 
Posts: 647
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:01 pm
Location: Brought to You Live, Via Sorcery

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Throttle » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:53 pm

I guess it's a reference to this:

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Beornings
After the Battle of Five Armies and the decimation of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains, many Northmen gathered around Beorn who became a great chief. It is possible that the Beornings became known as a people through being descendants of Beorn.[2][3] During the War of the Ring, Grimbeorn, son of Beorn, was the leader of the Beornings.[3]


http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Battle_of_Five_Armies
The Battle of Five Armies was an important battle waged in T.A. 2941.[3] The five warring parties were the Orcs and the Wargs against Men, Elves and Dwarves on and near the Lonely Mountain.
You notice a gigantic orb spider with raw-umber patterning's attention shift toward you!
You notice a giant orb spider with night patterning's attention shift toward you!
You notice a rugged orb spider with sepia patterning's attention shift toward you!
User avatar
Throttle
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 358
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:59 am

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Hazgarn » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:56 pm

krelm wrote:How would it even be addressed?

By "not addressed" I just meant that no one had stepped up to say it wasn't accurate, or to point to any information on it. The places I'd looked didn't give me any substantial answers. Now people are offering input on it, and that was really all I was looking for.
SOI Mirkwood Map
SOI Wilderlands Map

I am also a Guide. Feel free to contact me through AIM or PM with questions about the game.
User avatar
Hazgarn
Cartographer
 
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 9:35 am
Location: Sacramento, Ca

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby krelm » Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:19 pm

Hazgarn wrote:
krelm wrote:How would it even be addressed?

By "not addressed" I just meant that no one had stepped up to say it wasn't accurate, or to point to any information on it. The places I'd looked didn't give me any substantial answers. Now people are offering input on it, and that was really all I was looking for.


Oh. Uh. Carry on, then.
One among the fence.
User avatar
krelm
Calce Ferio asini Operarius
 
Posts: 647
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:01 pm
Location: Brought to You Live, Via Sorcery

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby tehkory » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:27 pm

Songweaver wrote:The five things SOI needs the most right now:

1) More plots, all around. It's easy to feel jealous when you're fighting over scraps. That said, I've seen Guard-specific plots, full Utterby plots, orc plots, etc, so let's not make wild generalizations here.

2) More players to be proactive and make things happen in-game in a cooperative way with the staff.

3) The staff to continue to keep an open mind and open dialogue with the players. I'd be more upset if the staff weren't willing to change their mind two months into the opening of their game because of something they posted before the game ever opened.

4) People to chill out. Some of the venom in this community is a big part of why the community has shrunk over the years. It's a big part of why so many staff members have resigned. I'm all about righting wrongs, but this is grasping at straws without even having correct information first.

ETA:

5) More documentation for players on culture and the gameworld, providing inspiration and options for new characters. Absolutely.

I feel like the game is moving in the right direction with most of these things.


Sure...all of these things are true. Except point #1, which...is pretty off-base. It's a faulty argument to even try and say that the same level of metaplot is being handed(yes, -handed-, for that is how the Metaplot works) to any section of the playerbase, as much as has been handed to the Hillmen.

The problem is that if we sit here, and handfeed magic curses and fogs and remedies and shades to a section of the playerbase, that's ging to be the section of the playerbase that people gravitate to. Most of the people don't even have a decent damn reason to be with 'the Free People,' much less go rub elbows with lepers, but...people go where the plot is. And the plot--the lion's share of it--is being put in a singular place.

To Krelm's "go on and go do something argument," this isn't about this. That's a player tendency, that's a player argument, that's player-weight. That's not something that has any relevance. The answer to "We're out of water" is not "We have plenty of food," and the answer to "Admins are making bad decisions" is not "Well, make good player ones!"

The problem here is that a sideshow of the game--which I appreciate, and which I view as a net positive--is being given the lion's share of Admin's attention and work, rather than remaining as a sideshow(as it should).

"Why not," Matt asks. Probably because you said you wouldn't. Why not give this player X advantages, why not give this player X plots, why not grant this player Special Roles? Because that's not what you said you'd tell a story about. It's what you explicitly told every one of us--repeatedly--we weren't allowed to do. And repeatedly, you allowed someone else to do it. I don't mean building a Fort. I mean being a Hillmen at -all-. We were given very narrow guidelines for making PCs. A select few were granted something outside those guidelines. That's what we call favoritism. It's 'justified,' maybe, because of the caliber of players involved. But let's look at it for what it is. And that trend--the trend of bending the rules for some--has continued. Unapologetically, it continues. So either the rules need to be followed, or else rewritten.

ETA:
Do I need to quote the vision? Do I need to grab Jddid's public forum posts about being a Hillmen, and him being told no, publicly? I can go get started on that, if you'd all like.

I'm not objecting to the quality of work. I'm objecting to repeated reassurances and repeated Rules and Guidelines for Applications and Visions...and then playing another game entirely. Sure, it's an Alpha. But this is a pretty basic, skeletal framework issue.
tehkory
Master Ent
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:21 pm

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Songweaver » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:06 pm

Beornings aren't Hillmen, and are open for applications with very strict guidelines, it appears.

And I agree that more plot love needs to be spread, all around. That's why it's my number one suggestion.
User avatar
Songweaver
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:21 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby tehkory » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:29 pm

Songweaver wrote:Beornings aren't Hillmen, and are open for applications with very strict guidelines, it appears.

And I agree that more plot love needs to be spread, all around. That's why it's my number one suggestion.


Beornings and Hillmen are enough alike that the point doesn't need to be belabored. They're nigh-indistinguishable.
tehkory
Master Ent
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:21 pm

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby ThinkTwice » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:59 pm

I just wanted to weigh briefly in to say that I love what's been done with the Beornings or the Hill-Men or whatever they are. There's these strange accusations earlier in the thread talking about the hill-men not being inclusive enough, or grabbing and hoarding all of the plots, whenever half of the people that currently have access to the camp are from Utterby. How exclusive can you be when you pass out access like that? O_o

I'm still somewhat confused about why having hill-men is wrong, because the argument right now seems to be BECAUSE I WAS TOLD NO. Have you considered there may be a reason you were told no and others were allowed to? There's a difference between staff favoritism and handing plots/restricted roles to mature, involved players. Probably somehow linked to creating vast amounts of documentation and putting in the IG work necessary rather than creating complaint board threads about how not every player is considered equal.

The arguments about staff doubling back on their original, stated vision is hilarious. You mean to tell me that, during the Alpha-phase of the game, the staff vision is undergoing development? They're continually evolving their policies and practices, now that the game is live and they're seeing their baby in action? Huh. Weird.
ThinkTwice
Honored Dwarf
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 3:34 am

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Jeshin » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:19 pm

Perhaps the staff will comment, but it is fairly evident what the staff position was. You had to be from outside Utterby and you had to be traveling to Utterby. You were going to work and live in Utterby. In fact there was an issue with the orc guidelines because orc players pointed out it would be weird and I believe they got partially edited. The human ones did not.

The Hillmen family app was allowed to create. The rule was bent or an exception was made. The fact of the matter is that expectations were set, an understanding between the players and staff was reached, then that understanding was altered. That is a sign of poor communication. Then there was the policy regarding no more expansions to family roles, but tribes are touchy like that, because now the hillmen tribe has morphed to some weird anyone come live in our fort tribe. So what was likely a family role meant to eventually die out is not a persistent gameworld presence. Likely the staff didn't plan for this but it has happened. This is once against a breach of the understanding of what family roles would be and the expectations of the player base. Further poor communication.

I personally believe in bending the rules and making exceptions. But I also firmly believe in strong communication and managing the understanding and expectation people have. If you want to bend the rules and make exceptions, you have to let people know they can ask for it and give them some guidelines on when it's okay to do so.
Jeshin
Elf Recruit
 
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 6:37 pm

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby tehkory » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:38 pm

I just wanted to weigh briefly in to say that I love what's been done with the Beornings or the Hill-Men or whatever they are. There's these strange accusations earlier in the thread talking about the hill-men not being inclusive enough, or grabbing and hoarding all of the plots, whenever half of the people that currently have access to the camp are from Utterby. How exclusive can you be when you pass out access like that? O_o

Giving out access to a handful of people does not constitute inclusivity. I'm one of those people. This isn't inclusive. I was included. I still am. You're confusing the small with the large, I'm afraid. You'll lose arguments for exclusivity, until the plot/attention shifts away from the Hillmen. Because it doesn't make sense, thematically, for most of us to -be- there.

You're also flat-out missing where Admins are stating that, yes, most of their attention goes towards the Hillmen(Hi, Tiamat! E>). You're also missing where they're the ones doing much of the RPA work.

I'm still somewhat confused about why having hill-men is wrong, because the argument right now seems to be BECAUSE I WAS TOLD NO. Have you considered there may be a reason you were told no and others were allowed to? There's a difference between staff favoritism and handing plots/restricted roles to mature, involved players. Probably somehow linked to creating vast amounts of documentation and putting in the IG work necessary rather than creating complaint board threads about how not every player is considered equal.

Because if Staff are going to give out specific roles to specific players, then they need to admit such, and have basic, open, and public rules as to how they're going to do that...or just plain admit that they don't intend to do that. Again, let me repeat: telling a person to go "play the game better" and "put in more work" is not the issue. This isn't that people didn't do 'the work.' The Hillmen players did the work. This isn't about 'work,' or 'effort.' This is about Admin-level decisions, and Admin-level choices. Not whether a Player can put in Effort and get Reward. That's a fundamentally wrongly-directed argument. I've clanlead. I've gamelead. I've put in hours in both keeping a clan running and keeping a game interesting and to give any one person logging in a reason to do so, regardless of clan or any other status. This isn't about that, because players can -always- do that. I've watched it under the Best of Administrators and under the Worst of Administrators.

The arguments about staff doubling back on their original, stated vision is hilarious. You mean to tell me that, during the Alpha-phase of the game, the staff vision is undergoing development? They're continually evolving their policies and practices, now that the game is live and they're seeing their baby in action? Huh. Weird.

I believe that Players and Admins should follow the rules set out for them. I believe in a Code of Conduct. I believe Shadows of Isildur lacks those things for its Admins, and suffers for it.

In short: Shadows of Isildur is Artbitrary. The discussion--my concerns--have to do with a lack of any adherence to the stated vision, when a Staff that -seemed- to have a Vision was what drew me here in the first place If you're alright with Arbitrary decisions, then that's fine. I'm not. I've gone up against Holmes, one of my best friends in the whole world, when he made decisions I thought were arbitrary, and I'll do it when I see it from SoI too...until they decide they're going to go the route of minimal rules and conduct, publicly. And then I'll quietly offer my dissent, here and there. But until then?

RAWR. Here I am.

Also:

New Staff! Hi. I'm glad you're positive, eager, and ready for Staffing. I'm not hateful. I'm just concerned. E>.

Jeshin:

Yuss. Exactly. Except that I'm diametrically, fervently, zealously opposed to special applications. But...that's a sane way to go about them, if Staff choose to. Whether the rules for how you apply are public, or the Special Applications are like call-ins...they need to be open. They need to 'follow the rules.' It's what we have RPP for, in the first place.
tehkory
Master Ent
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:21 pm

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Icarus » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:56 pm

Rules were bent, mistakes were made, attempts to roll with the mistakes were made, further ones were made. It was made clear, mind you, that special apps would be considered from the getgo. People just had to ask.

"Plot" as we know it, is a tricky thing. The plague on the hillmen was an attempt to wipe out any perceived vNPC presence that had been potentially suggested via an IC method that jived with the larger plot. What you see as special imm attention was more akin to punishment for rulebending guised in an IC shroud. It wasn't a favor. People were up in arms that we tossed a scent in their camp to reveal ICly people who hung out there, and people freaked that we were doing anything at all.

Beornings existed before Beorn. They have long been a loose coalition of clans/tribes/villages on the western edge of Mirkwood, similar to Woodsmen, but whom find themselves led by a small group of individuals who are essentially magicians that can shift their form. Beorn was not the first, nor will he be the last, and their origins are murky and not even Tolkien fully fleshed them out. I hold Martinez as higher canon that tolkiengateway.

The "Free People" are entirely separate now from hillmen, Beornings, or magical ponies. Beornings are led by Beorn, who is run by staff, and independent of any PC. Beornings can roll IG, into Utterby, completely independent of any current clan or PC group, without issue. The camp is run by PCs, who frankly play an incredible amount. Their combined playtimes as a group of 6 or so rival larger groups of twenty. This means they get a lot of stuff done, and kudos to them for that. But it does mean they are as if not more active than IG clans, and this leads to attention, simply by virtue of being online and seeing most things.

A lot of our best players, including many of you, have left us. We need you back, because otherwise it's the clans that you thought were getting everything handed to them who will remain as all that's left in the game. How can I run plots for the Guard when they don't have enough folks to run large patrols? How can I engage other folks in Mirkwood when some of our best RPers have left, leaving me with the free fort as the only group outside the walls on a regular basis? I need other people IG to lead players and serve as examples to the pbase.

I'm shifting my priority to getting us a proper plan, starting with an all staff meeting that will occur within the next week to get folks onboard and on the same page. This includes documentation, and further transparency to you folks. I'll then do my best to get that plan published for the pbase, so you know what our priorities and focuses will be over the next months.

Further questions that I might address?

EDIT: Our beornings are simply humans. Nothing more. No powers, no magic, no bears. Just humans from western Mirkwood that follow Beorn, and whose forefathers followed whoever came before Beorn, and whose children will follow who comes after.
[Petition: Player] I am ready to begin my interdimensional adventure.

A mutilated little orc murmurs, nodding as he mutters,
"I fought good today. Yuh. Fought good, 'specially for bein' the kitchen-snaga. Yuh, I did."
User avatar
Icarus
Staffer Emeritus
 
Posts: 2837
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:45 pm

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Fulgrim » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:09 pm

+1 Icarus.

And to the people who left, come back, play the game, there's totally a place for you.
(Morgoth):
I had a part in everything.
Twice I destroyed the light and twice I failed.
I left ruin behind me when I returned.
But I also carried ruin with me.
She, the mistress of her own lust.
User avatar
Fulgrim
Roleplay Admin
 
Posts: 290
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:34 pm

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby hobbitboots » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:20 pm

That's awesome, Icarus.
User avatar
hobbitboots
Dwarf Recruit
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 9:57 am

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Icarus » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:41 pm

Mind you, I'm not saying that further muckups won't occur. Alpha is just as much a test of staff as it is everything else. We ain't perfect, and to call us rusty is giving rust a bad name. We have a couple different visions, different priorities, and are doing our best to get on the same page, but it's a process. A painful one, but it is happening.

I will say this. Past iterations of SOI have seen rampant abuse by staff. We're talking nasty stuff, including sexual harassment, clear manipulation of item stats, people reading game logs about anything said about their characters and then knowing it ICly, folks going completely off the reservation, special clans for imm-run-PCs that really did have special morgoth-centric plots, super thief clans run by staff, abusive wives of owners who created their own forest in the middle of certain non-foresty areas so they could run their clan without having to go outside, mass executions of PCs deemed uncooperative, firing staff then rehiring them under different names to avoid player suspicion, etc etc etc.

So -- I might be incompetent in helping to run the game, but I'm trying to bring SOI back to life. I won't speak for the rest of staff as far as their own competence, because I do love them dearly, but our heart is in the right place. We ain't doing any of that crap, nor are we in danger of doing any of that crap. We're doing the best we can, in our own limited capacity, to make the game we always wanted to have and call home.

If someone else were willing to carry the torch, I'd gladly give it to them. But hell, even Kite came back and within two weeks was having a nervous breakdown saying, "Keep this crazy thing away from me."
[Petition: Player] I am ready to begin my interdimensional adventure.

A mutilated little orc murmurs, nodding as he mutters,
"I fought good today. Yuh. Fought good, 'specially for bein' the kitchen-snaga. Yuh, I did."
User avatar
Icarus
Staffer Emeritus
 
Posts: 2837
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:45 pm

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Nezerin » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:02 pm

I have to say that I really like Icarus's post/proposed solution to the problems discussed. So I'm not going to flog a dead horse about how unfair the things he talked about are.

I will say on the plot focus though that if the reason is that the hillmen have more 'hooks' for the staff to use for plots then someone did something wrong in the design of Utterby that needs to be fixed, since as we all know this is just ALPHA. After all, why are the normal players who don't have special apps stuck in an area so boring that staff can't even come up with an idea for a long plot?

I really do hope that the reason for the difference in plot development between the two groups is based more on staff activity and confusion (again ALPHA and all) rather than a number of PCs. If a plot will work with 10 PCs then I would think it would be able to be dumbed down enough to work with say 4 or 5. Especially if those 4 or 5 are willing to share out the plot like a cold instead of hording it like gold.

At any rate, Icarus's post gives me hope that the issues brought up will be addressed as I've had a ton of fun playing in the human sphere thus far.
Nezerin
Forum Hobbit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:54 pm

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby bjg2k1us » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:12 pm

A lot of our best players, including many of you, have left us. We need you back, because otherwise it's the clans that you thought were getting everything handed to them who will remain as all that's left in the game. How can I run plots for the Guard when they don't have enough folks to run large patrols? How can I engage other folks in Mirkwood when some of our best RPers have left, leaving me with the free fort as the only group outside the walls on a regular basis? I need other people IG to lead players and serve as examples to the pbase.


This is concerning to me.

The Guard, the Lodge... these are YOUR CLANS, staff. They were your responsibility to create, to put in position so that stories could be told around and about them, to make them work. If your best roleplayers are abandoning them... why is that? If a handful of players were able to roll with their 'great idea' from day one, and the clans you've devised can't or won't compete with them... where is the failing, exactly?

This is like telling people 'Go play in Amdir' back in SOI 2. Why on earth would they, unless they desperately loved being told to run laps and salute everything that moved? There were more interesting things to do, more plots being run, and more freedom to play what you wanted to play in basically every other corner of the game.

It's not the Hillmen's fault they were allowed to exist, or their fault that they appear to be inherently more interesting than anything offered in the standard roles. It's not their fault that they were allowed to do what they wanted from day one, while it took a week or more for the basic, flawed framework of the other clans to emerge. It is a fault of these other roles that they've been put in such a position as to appear nonviable in comparison. It is a fault of staff to neglect these other roles in favor spending attention on the Hillmen, negative or otherwise.

My question, then, is what happens to these roles? Beg for players to come back to them? That doesn't address any of the issues. Punish the Hillmen until the Guard seems awesome by comparison? Not really any better. What do you do to improve the 'official' roles? I ask because at some point Alpha must become Beta (we all hope!), and with it, one would assume, new settings and new 'official' clans and roles.

What do you do to make sure the next batch isn't immediately overshadowed by whatever curveball the players throw you?
User avatar
bjg2k1us
Dwarf Recruit
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:36 pm

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby MrT2G » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:15 pm

Unpopular opinion warning...

Personally, I don't think the staff should be wasting their time on PCs, plots, and other rubblish. It is Alpha. We are here to be testing and balancing as far as I'm concerned.

The focus should be on setting up the full suite of crafts, progs, getting the resources sorted out, getting skill levels sorted out, get races sorted out, etc.

An important part of this, is figuring out policy in regards to players, player-led groups, and OOC/IC crossover. I've seen mistakes made and corrected. This, to me, is encouraging and I applaud the staff for recognizing themselves as fallible. True mistakes are only those you don't learn from.

Of course, as a player, I want to see plots. I want to see cool items and proper clans, but those things aren't essential for the development of the game overall.

Maybe, it is just the orc in me, but making due with what you have can be made part of the fun. Grimy bandage squat ftw! :mrgreen:
A curvy, copper-haired woman drops a small, strawberry-blonde toddler girl.
MrT2G
Elf Recruit
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:11 pm

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Fulgrim » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:16 pm

We'll be discussing all that soon, so feedback is welcome in the interim.
(Morgoth):
I had a part in everything.
Twice I destroyed the light and twice I failed.
I left ruin behind me when I returned.
But I also carried ruin with me.
She, the mistress of her own lust.
User avatar
Fulgrim
Roleplay Admin
 
Posts: 290
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:34 pm

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Ava » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:37 pm

Do the Hillmen have a workbench? Can anyone move there?
Ava
Dwarf Recruit
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:33 am

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Songweaver » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:41 pm

tehkory wrote:Beornings and Hillmen are enough alike that the point doesn't need to be belabored. They're nigh-indistinguishable.


I'd heartily disagree with that on a ton of levels. There's not even a good basis for comparison at all, really, but the two groups are actually very different from one another in my experience. I'm really pretty surprised to read you making that assertion, since most of everything else that you posted is, at least, thoughtful.

bjg2k1us wrote:What do you do to make sure the next batch isn't immediately overshadowed by whatever curveball the players throw you?


I think that this is a real lesson to be taken away from ALPHA by staff. The starting clans were (still are) relatively poorly documented. If you have central clans (like the Lodge or the Guard), they are going to inspire players by being inspiring to begin with. You really gotta pull out all of the stops with clan design, because players are hungry to be inspired by you. It does become problematic when these clans sort of just become an after-thought, but what's done is done and the game is moving forward.

Nezerin wrote:I have to say that I really like Icarus's post/proposed solution to the problems discussed. So I'm not going to flog a dead horse about how unfair the things he talked about are.

I will say on the plot focus though that if the reason is that the hillmen have more 'hooks' for the staff to use for plots then someone did something wrong in the design of Utterby that needs to be fixed, since as we all know this is just ALPHA. After all, why are the normal players who don't have special apps stuck in an area so boring that staff can't even come up with an idea for a long plot?


I wouldn't assume that Utterby is too boring to have plots. I've seen several there. What is needed are more RPAs and more plots all around.

I'm going to let you in on a secret I learned early on when playing RPIs - one that was re-enforced by my long time of running RPIs and RPAing. The best "hook" for a staff looking for players to connect with via plot is a nosy, thinking, proactive player. A player who petitions and says, "Hey, this room says that there's a bloodstain here. What can I see about its shape? Color? How fresh is it?" A player who looks to get involved by creating plots of their own and immersing themselves in even the smallest things offered to them by an admin and other players.

It's a two-way street, and there is a certain art to helping RPAs hook into your character that I promise you are in control of no matter what area of the game that you play in. Players are capable of inspiring RPAs, and RPAs need that inspiration to do their job. The more RPA time spent on plots, obviously the more likely anyone is to find a hook.

But it all begins with player proactivity, which is the life-blood of any RPI.

All-in-all, I just find it very unfair that so much drama is being stirred up over this and incredible accusations are being leveled at what is a very fair staff.

As Krelm mentioned here and elsewhere, changing PCs's stats, boosting their skills, giving them over-powered equipment - those are major issues that affect the balance and fairness of the game. The level of abuse and cheating and literal theft of people's money and many other things that were commonplace for the last generation of old SOI administrators ... these were big deals. The difference is, maybe, that the old Staff just banned you if you talked up, and this staff is probably too nice -- if anything.

---

Back to the original point:

The degree of separation here that seems to be at the heart of the issue seems so much smaller than other instances from the past that didn't receive half of the outcry (albeit, largely from the same small number of players):

- The Vok.
- The Lothlorien Elves/Rangers.
- The Ration Factory Coalition.
- The Battalion of Eradan.
- Heren Carnatalion.
- Gothakra.
- The Twisted Eye.
- The list could go on and on.

In short, some of the greatest clans I've ever seen in an RPI, and every one of them more "supported" by staff than any clan is in SOI's current incarnation.

What is it about us, as a Community, that we have to constantly force ourselves into an "us versus them" mentality? I just don't get why people can't play the game, tell their stories, and do stuff. There's a time to take a stand against the man, but it's not always time to take a stand against the man, and there's not always a good reason to.

Like Icarus said, the staff are figuring things out; personally, I think things are getting better over time on most fronts, which is what you want from a fledgling game. Give them some breathing room and help them. Help them by being proactive, by showing more good faith, and by not going out of your way to admonish them at every turn.

At least, that's what I'd like to see come out of this, player-side.
Last edited by Songweaver on Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Songweaver
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:21 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Ava » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:45 pm

Can anyone special app for a clan/clanhall?
Ava
Dwarf Recruit
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:33 am

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Connect

FacebookTwitter

Login

Who is online

Very smart users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Login