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(The State of) PvP

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(The State of) PvP

Postby krelm » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:17 pm

I thought about holding off on this post because there are already two other posts up drawing everyone's attention. Then I thought: YOLO.

So anyway, I was thinking about PvP the past couple of days, how it is now, how it's different from old SoI's PvP, and why that is. A lot of people say that old PvP was so much more meaningful and blah blah blah, and, barring the rose-tinted-goggles effect, I was wondering why that was.

What I came down to was, prevalence. In old SoI, barring the humans, you only had a couple of high-RPP races that could feasibly go patrolling in the daytime, unless the orcs were just feeling froggy one day. In new SoI, though, orcs and humans occupy the same time frame, so any outing at all has a chance for them to run into one another.

This, coupled with the orcs' general attitude of "You're only a badass if you kill a human," leads to, I feel, the current state of PvP-- that is, the (middle-)gate-camping, sneak-attacking, ambush-laden state. (Though, it isn't just the orcs.) Then there's the fact that we don't really have the combat playerbase for a proper large-scale battle, and even if we did people would probably complain about it.

That said, I'm not entirely sure how this would be changed. It was more me musing on how things came about, than anything else.
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Re: (The State of) PvP

Postby Smooly » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:32 pm

krelm wrote: Then I thought: YOLO.


Going to kill you on sight

Edited to add that perhaps ranged combat could be tweaked. Personally I like it, but it's probably the main reason 90% of the pbase has hide/sneak and almost every pvp encounter starts off as an ambush. And why almost every fight always goes right to code, because nobody wants to take a through and through while typing out a emote, which pretty much drops you dead in like a minute if not dealt with right away. So perhaps lowering the damage of blood loss or ranged weapons in general?
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Re: (The State of) PvP

Postby Matt » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:05 pm

Armor. Armor is huge on combat and PvP and taking arrows and etc etc. The one larger scale fight I was in went by so incredibly fast because everyone's in crappy leathers, don't want to get shot by arrows in crappy leather, and get injured 100x faster. There's no big burly guys standing in front taking less damage in their fancy armor and extending the fights.

So instead of trading blows and being able to be concerned about emotes as well it's 'oh crap dude number 2 just got a severe, oh no dude number 5 took a griev, I gotta rescue, tell steve STEVE RESCUE YOU COWARD, oh no it's time to run now I got a griev!'.

Heavier armor with large sneak/hide penalties, or even progging them so you -can't- stealth in it would make a massive difference on how combat is actually working right now.

Want to go stealth to Utterby with your buddy Grok and kill some humies? Better think twice Hercules the Guard swordmaster is walking around in his scalemail swinging around his bastard sword. Stay out of their territory unless you have a legit plan.

To sum it up the issue right now is everyone's in leathers, it's really easy to hurt you with arrows/weapons in general, and there's really no reason -not- to get to beginner hide and ambush each other.
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Re: (The State of) PvP

Postby MrT2G » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:19 pm

Smooly wrote: Edited to add that perhaps ranged combat could be tweaked. Personally I like it, but it's probably the main reason 90% of the pbase has hide/sneak and almost every pvp encounter starts off as an ambush.


This.
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Re: (The State of) PvP

Postby Matt » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:39 pm

MrT2G wrote:
Smooly wrote: Edited to add that perhaps ranged combat could be tweaked. Personally I like it, but it's probably the main reason 90% of the pbase has hide/sneak and almost every pvp encounter starts off as an ambush.


This.


I completely agree, to a point. If you change it now without really adding any other tiers of armor that would protect more you can really gimp it. Wearing leathers? Arrows should probably hurt but that's why you can sneak. Metal? Arrows will hurt but you being a big tough guy in metal armor can suck it up and let that little bleeder go. Instead of having it gush blood all over.

Arrows that pierce completely through someone should get removed though. Maybe give someone with master bow skill a chance of it happening. But me with my novice longbow shouldn't be putting arrows through peoples heads and insta killing them.
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Re: (The State of) PvP

Postby Throttle » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:41 pm

It will never evolve beyond ganking and ambushing unless NPCs are involved on one or both sides. I think orkish NPCs would be enough as the burden is on them to be the threat, and they also need it the most, having a smaller playerbase.

Also, when the game moves to Laketown, it'll be nice if the two spheres are not so close that you can easily sneak from one gate to the other in five minutes and with very little chance of ever even having your hide checked against.
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Re: (The State of) PvP

Postby krelm » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:42 pm

If anything with arrows should be nerfed, it's trauma damage. Hercules can take several arrows in full metal armor, sure, but as soon as his trauma hits 2 ticks from arrows that don't even hit him, he's going to get mobbed.
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Re: (The State of) PvP

Postby Matt » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:44 pm

Throttle wrote:It will never evolve beyond ganking and ambushing unless NPCs are involved on one or both sides. I think orkish NPCs would be enough as the burden is on them to be the threat, and they also need it the most, having a smaller playerbase.

Also, when the game moves to Laketown, it'll be nice if the two spheres are not so close that you can easily sneak from one gate to the other in five minutes and with very little chance of ever even having your hide checked against.


This isn't true, sorry. This rarely happened in old SOI without NPCs along. NPCs are a bane of all things PvP. When you make it so sneaking up and shooting a guy in scalemail with an arrow = guy in scalemail runs up and puts a sword through your face the small group ganking will stop.
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Re: (The State of) PvP

Postby Throttle » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:15 pm

What I mean is that there simply aren't enough players for the PvP to be more than very small skirmishes. If the goal is for there to be battles, it will require NPCs unless the playerbase doubles. If the goal is not to have battles then all is well, but the ganking festival does get a little boring.
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Re: (The State of) PvP

Postby Matt » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:43 pm

There's plenty of players man. I know the orcs patrol in large groups fairly regularly. The PCs leading those patrols are usually pretty gracious and don't march them straight to Utterby. I took out a patrol of 8 just yesterday. If 8v8 is a small skirmish all I want are small skirmishes cause anymore would be pretty insane. It's all about organizing people man, telling people the day before 'tomorrow at 5:30 PM were going to try and patrol etc etc. Set a weekly time, a daily time people can try to meet up.

There are currently 26 inhabitants of Middle-Earth.

That's pretty damn good numbers I'd say for this time and this is a prime time of the day you could set something up.
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Re: (The State of) PvP

Postby Letters » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:51 pm

The engine isn't very good at supporting vast numbers of NPCs, but I still far, far prefer a stack of NPCs to PvP.

I think the most NPCs that were ever tried was when the Haradrim assaulted Caolafon. Quite literally the entire force on both sides was given NPC representation. As it turned out, the Wardenry totally trounced the Haradrim, though bar some confusion where Wardenry archers ended up engaged in melee, the fight was lopsided beyond belief. Memorable, still, but I think pretty much everyone would agree that upwards of five hundred NPCs engaged in combat over the course of an IG day is perhaps a bit too much.

Mixing large forces of NPCs with PCs on both sides is no good either. The ford across the Morgulduin springs to mind.

I think the most positive experiences to be had, combat-wise, were in the Tur Edendor days, or post Minas Morgul, at least. Ithilien was fantastic then, and it was almost all PvE.
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Re: (The State of) PvP

Postby Songweaver » Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:16 pm

1) Arrows. Yep. Gun-code's too strong for arrows, even as nerfed as they are.

2) Armor. Armor should scale up, eventually, but there are other entirely untouched crafts that need to be a priority too. Currently, things are balanced. As things scale up, arrows will continue to be the least balanced aspect of things until they are nerfed a bit.

3) Goals. This isn't a large-scale war being fought here. Not yet, at least. More holding points and a means to change the landscape of the gameworld through physical occupation would be helpful here. That's if war simulation is actually the goal, though. From what I know IC, I don't think that's really the case for most folks.

That said, I don't have a problem with PVP right now. I think it's been getting better. It's not a good war simulation, but that's not really how I see the current gameworld's situation.

As Krelm said, it's common (in part) because orcs and humans share the same patrol times now. That's not ever been the case before. Personally? I like it. Save war for the end of ALPHA, or a later phase of the game. PVP doesn't always have to mean war and big battles; sometimes, you need to plant the seeds of a conflict first, and that's what I feel is being done right now.
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Re: (The State of) PvP

Postby Erythil » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:46 pm

I would like to see more meaningful purposes to PVP. Objectives to fight over, like on old SoI. I never experienced that myself, but fighting to actually defend and seize outlying areas and reaping certain benefits from that in access to materials, income, or NPCs seems like a great motivator for fighting that also takes the pressure off people who are just gathering materials near town and makes them less likely to be senselessly ganked.

Without objectives, it feels a bit gamey, like we're brawling just to brawl, which makes sense for orcs but less so for humans.
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Re: (The State of) PvP

Postby Matt » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:11 pm

I don't dislike that suggestion. The only issue is there's not a whole lot of room on the map between orcland and humanville. I could see maybe 2-3 possible locations.
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Re: (The State of) PvP

Postby Erythil » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:30 pm

I suppose it would also be possible to add an additional area for that sort of thing, rather than sticking it on the existing map, which admittedly my character hasn't explored much.
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Re: (The State of) PvP

Postby Songweaver » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:04 am

There's definitely room for expansion, and there's always the possibility of player-driven projects to create strategic holdings for both the humans and the orcs.
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