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Mercy

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Re: Mercy

Postby krelm » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:49 pm

Another question, how do you justify a band of goblins/humans randomly showing up in the middle of Mirkwood, anywhere from 5 to 50 miles away from home, and whisking said person back in an instant? That's jarring as hell.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Matt » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:53 pm

I can literally set a trigger so I can never die. You can say that's against the rules... and I'll say prove it.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Throttle » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:56 pm

Anyway, genuine twink PKing - the kind where the game is better off if the act is reversed - is so rare that changing the entire death system isn't really warranted. In all the time I played Atonement, I can only think of one case (a certain slaughtering of half the Vultures) and I can't recall any examples from Parallel at all, nor SOI:Laketown so far

Pointless death-by-unbalanced-spawn-prog is better handled with a rez, especially during alpha. This should still be reserved for cases where it really was unreasonable and something that shouldn't be allowed to happen, like five wargs within aggro range of the town gates or something, and of course death by actual code bugs or server stability issues.

This is a good opportunity to discuss the game's rez policy.
Last edited by Throttle on Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Matt » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:56 pm

Throttle wrote:Anyway, genuine twink PKing - the kind where the game is better off if the act is reversed - is so rare that changing the entire death system isn't really warranted. In all the time I played Atonement, I can only think of one case (a certain slaughtering of half the Vultures) and I can't recall any examples from Parallel at all, nor SOI:Laketown so far.


My bad on that one. :lol:
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Re: Mercy

Postby Throttle » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:04 pm

You rascal.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Red » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:18 pm

I'm going to sleep on this one.

:P
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Re: Mercy

Postby Ava » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:24 pm

tehkory wrote:
Real wrote:
someguy wrote:Revise the no rez period policy


This is ideal. My supporting the mercy command is solely based on the fact that I know if I die unfairly no rez is coming, even if it was infinitesimally stupid.


My God, this. This is an Alpha. We should feel encouraged to take risks, and test shit, and rewarded for finding murderous bugs. There's too much investment in crafting and playing a concept to 'risk it,' otherwise.



Bandwagoning. This, please. It's probably an equal amount of work to have staff look over rez requests for those who tested their bugs out in Alpha, as opposed to players being cautious and not trying things, and leaving bugs to arise at later stages rather than just be remedied.
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Re: Mercy

Postby krelm » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:26 pm

Also, just throwing this out here, if there's a bug in the game so bad that it outright kills you, you probably won't have time to type 'mercy.'

Also, you'd be docked an RPP for trying to escape a bug, if it did go off.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Throttle » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:33 pm

However, there's definitely potential in a Mirkwood Lasertag spin-off game. The mercy code need not be wasted.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Ava » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:36 pm

Lasercrossbow tag. And bring back the gunfire noise echoes, but replace them with 'pews'!
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Re: Mercy

Postby ThinkTwice » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:51 pm

I dislike this change for the above stated reasons. If I have someone dead to rights, I want to kill that person, not watch them get whisked away by magically appearing vNPCs that don't do anything but rescue them.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Matt » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:56 pm

This change would literally make me immortal while people with 0 RPP wouldn't be. That's a broken advantage.
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Re: Mercy

Postby krelm » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:57 pm

Matt wrote:This change would literally make me immortal while people with 0 RPP wouldn't be. That's a broken advantage.


This change would do absolutely nothing to help newbies.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Nimrod » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:06 am

Throttle wrote:One main thing that this will likely do is completely rule out any form of betrayal or secretive murders.

Wrong. There will be plenty of areas you can murder one another without fear of the mercy command ruining anything. There is also the option (though not discussed) of temporarily disabling the command to allow people who are actually planning a murder to do so. (This does not happen very often, and asking for help with a murder prior to the event is the preferred method anyway. At least for me.)

The command is intended to be used in orc vs. human confrontations and player vs. nature confrontations. i.e. you're caught in a crazy place, drowning, ganked by 15 wargs, etc.

There will be plenty of perma death. I want to squash the idea that a pvp confrontation does not always need to end in a PK, which seems to be what a lot of people expect.

It's Alpha... we're testing. If it flops, it flops, but there's a lot of good that can come from this too, which I think you're overlooking.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Matt » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:11 am

Yes, maybe, but probably not Nimrod. A ton of old time players have responded to this already negatively. Not one person has been like 'this is a good idea'.
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Re: Mercy

Postby someguy » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:13 am

Nimrod wrote:There will be plenty of perma death. I want to squash the idea that a pvp confrontation does not always need to end in a PK, which seems to be what a lot of people expect.


Despite my reputation, I'm not that big of a PKer. I generally die to the environment (other than Atonement BETA). But, I think that a rez policy overhaul would solve all the problems that this does without creating the problems that it does. If you want to enforce the idea that PVP doesn't need to end in death, there are better ways to do it. Have Striza issue a challenge to come back with human ears off live humans as a test of your orchood. Have the humans just use hit instead of kill and decide that orc head ornaments are creepy. I don't know. I'm sure that someone smarter than me can come up with a better way to have PVP not lead to ganking than a get out of jail system that's cost free for surviving as you don't need RPPs while your character is alive.
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Re: Mercy

Postby krelm » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:21 am

Nimrod wrote:It's Alpha... we're testing. If it flops, it flops, but there's a lot of good that can come from this too, which I think you're overlooking.


First, it looks like it's already flopped. Not a single player so far has come out and said they thought it was a great idea.

Second, while you surely did list its INTENDED uses, there are a lot of people, even with 1 RPP, who wouldn't use it as such.

Third, I don't feel like "this is ALPHA" is a good enough excuse to add something that is clearly universally hated. (I mean, Throttle and Matt actually agree on it. Wtf?)

Fourth, what are the good reasons? Can you name them? I can think of the bad.

1. Hugely abuse-able, especially since it'll be able to be used while in combat (otherwise, how would it work?)
2. Hugely immersion breaking. You're in a huge PVP fight and suddenly 10 dudes zoom across the forest at the speed of light to get you back to the city, without helping your friends.
3. It doesn't help newbies in the slightest. (This, perhaps, is what annoys me most about it.)
4. You'd have to be really fast to type it, or else you're dead anyway.
5. If it's used to escape intersphere PVP (it will be), the aggressor can just spam off to the healer room to finish the job, and the agressee is -1 RPP.
5. This is an RPI. Permadeath is the name of the game. There are no get-out-of-jail free cards.

And what's the "good?"

1. Help players avoid twinky pk's.
- See #4 above
2. Encourage more pvp by removing some of the brutality.
- See #5 and #3.
3. Avoid clan wipes.
- See #5. Clan wipes happen.
4. Allow players an extra level of protection for their beloved chars.
- See #5. Again, and I don't feel like I can stress this enough, this is an RPI. If I wanted my beloved character to survive a long time with no danger I'd go back to playing Haven.

EDIT:

Also, I agree with Someguy. Like Icarus said in the other thread-- mistakes were made. I wouldn't hold it against anyone if the flat 'no rez' policy was tweaked.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Songweaver » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:23 am

I'm a huge proponent of PVP not always needing to end in immediate death. I think that I've always tried to set an example in that way, based on a great experience my first RPI character had where he was not killed off and instead sold into slavery (from which greatness occurred.)

That said, I'm going to second a lot of other opinions in regards to this. In no way whatsoever should RPP be a buyout of death. I don't even like RPP being able to be spent anyways -- I think it should be a marking of what "tier" you are accepted at.

But, at the end of the day, this would make Shadows of Isildur no longer be an RPI. It's not just a handful of people in the community (and outside of the community) that would feel this way. The vast majority of people in the RPI community would no longer accept SOI as an RPI. There are plenty of other games with pseudo-permadeath systems that allow for buyouts out of permadeath; these are not RPIs.

Real permanent death without buyouts is the most widely-recognized feature of an RPI. If you want to discourage PVP from turning into an automatic kill, you have two better options:

1) Don't do PVP. You've created a PVP game by design, but apparently the turnover from it is something you are regretting.

2) Give players incentives to not always kill other PCs in PVP. Give players incentives to try to, at the very least, give the PC they've defeated a meaningful death scene.


Simply put: I would stop playing this game if this command were implemented.
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Re: Mercy

Postby someguy » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:28 am

Ok, how about this. Not being able to use the kill command on a PC until they are unconscious and then have a little blurb about how douchy it is, forcing you to type kill again.

Edit: Maybe even a way to engage in a turn based final combat scene which would really only work well in one on one fights or some sort of final emote that was talked about on SOI. You're about to die, but you can type out your grizzly end as you see fit in the next two minutes.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Nimrod » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:28 am

hobbitboots wrote:I think permadeath adds WAY more to the game than twink killers ever took away from it.


That may be your opinion, HB, but we have no way to prove you right or wrong. It's completely speculative. Hence our wish to test, to push the envelope.

I believe death is an important part of the game. When a character dies in a fair fight, it can be a glorious thing. Folks mourn and move on. The player starts over. But when it's a completely unfair issue, players gang up with only the wish to PK someone, or anyone, just to prove a point, that is unfair.

If nobody likes the command, don't use it during our testing phase.

Maybe we should require at least 1 rpp, but charge ALL of the rpp you have.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Nimrod » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:33 am

Songweaver wrote:Simply put: I would stop playing this game if this command were implemented.


There it is.
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Re: Mercy

Postby krelm » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:35 am

Nimrod wrote:That may be your opinion, HB,


And my opinion, and Songweaver's opinion, and Throttle's opinion, and Matt's opinion, and Kory's opinion, and RadioactiveJesus' opinion, and Someguy's opinion-- who else am I missing?

Nimrod wrote:If nobody likes the command, don't use it during our testing phase.


This isn't a valid excuse. No one likes the idea. No one wants it.

Nimrod wrote:Maybe we should require at least 1 rpp, but charge ALL of the rpp you have.


Again, how would this help newbies?
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Re: Mercy

Postby Matt » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:36 am

Nimrod wrote:
hobbitboots wrote:I think permadeath adds WAY more to the game than twink killers ever took away from it.


That may be your opinion, HB, but we have no way to prove you right or wrong. It's completely speculative. Hence our wish to test, to push the envelope.

I believe death is an important part of the game. When a character dies in a fair fight, it can be a glorious thing. Folks mourn and move on. The player starts over. But when it's a completely unfair issue, players gang up with only the wish to PK someone, or anyone, just to prove a point, that is unfair.

If nobody likes the command, don't use it during our testing phase.

Maybe we should require at least 1 rpp, but charge ALL of the rpp you have.


Not one person so far has been for this and I think there's a good amount of people that would stop playing if it was implemented.

If there's a PvP battle that's legit and someone uses the command, do they get killed later? If I tell you there's a bunch of treasure in a cave and bring you there to get murdered by all my buds and you use it, do you get to live? Is this command -only- for saving a PC from twinkery/code disaster/snarfagling up to NPCs? If that's the case, a revamp of the rez policy is all that's needed. If not, I'll find another game.
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Re: Mercy

Postby radioactivejesus » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:46 am

Matt wrote:If that's the case, a revamp of the rez policy is all that's needed.

This, please. The rez policy for dying to bugs should really be a no-brainer. For pvp I'd want there to be written rules and regulations to avoid any potential favouritism that might come from things being decided on a case by case basis
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Re: Mercy

Postby krelm » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:47 am

radioactivejesus wrote:
Matt wrote:If that's the case, a revamp of the rez policy is all that's needed.

This, please. The rez policy for dying to bugs should really be a no-brainer. For pvp I'd want there to be written rules and regulations to avoid any potential favouritism that might come from things being decided on a case by case basis


So...Rules of Engagement?
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