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Mercy

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Re: Mercy

Postby Fulgrim » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:49 am

For PVP, I'd say Just Be Excellent To Eachother. Because that's infinitely more likely to work than RoE, which has a poor track record that's been discussed to death ten times back and six ways to Sunday.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Songweaver » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:50 am

krelm wrote:
radioactivejesus wrote:
Matt wrote:If that's the case, a revamp of the rez policy is all that's needed.

This, please. The rez policy for dying to bugs should really be a no-brainer. For pvp I'd want there to be written rules and regulations to avoid any potential favouritism that might come from things being decided on a case by case basis


So...Rules of Engagement?


No, just guidelines for what level of twinkery should signal a resurrection from the staff. I think that's what he means.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Smooly » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:51 am

Going along with Someguy's idea. What if the command just stopped combat and gave the attacking/winning pc an oocly choice to spare him. I'm not all for killing a pc 100% of the time as well, but I know my pc is for killing orcs 100% of the time if he can. This gives a way to avoid all that odd RP about why my pc just made a choice that goes against everything he believes in.If the pc still wants to kill whatever pc, they can, if not he can accept, and the whole being chased away echo can happen, loot can drop, and so on. If the pc is ported away, they can lose a rpp, if they die, rpp remains the same.

Not for the mercy command myself, but I could live with something like what I said above.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Red » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:52 am

Punish the PKer, severely. This might discourage them from doing it again.

Also maybe blurb on commencement for newbs that if they feel unjustifiably treated, they need to contact an adminstrator for help and revision of the incident.

Can admins record logs of the rooms so they can go back and watch, or not?

Punish the abuser! Strip THEM of their RPPs.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Fulgrim » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:56 am

I'd note now that personally I don't see PKing itself as an unjustifiably heinous act, only that someone behaving in a sketchy manner, like twinking when roleplay is /attempted/ with their character by others, or hiding and spam sneaking away from a confrontation, or killing someone one room away from safety, in sight of town walls? That kind of stuff. Is bad form.

Admittedly someone RPing being extra thorough like dragging an uncon PC and throwing them in the river, or tossing them onto a fire--stuff like that breeds RP and is at least a final scene. But going stab stab stab on an KO'd guy-o is just bad play and you shouldn't do it, you know better.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Throttle » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:57 am

Nimrod wrote:If nobody likes the command, don't use it during our testing phase.


The issue with this is that it's not a feature that you can just opt out of entirely and not have it affect you at all. I hated the upgrade command for a long time and chose not to use it throughout all of Atonement because I felt it was a pointless powergaming tool, but refraining from using it didn't leave me at any disadvantage aside from the insignificant opportunity cost of not min-maxing my PCs. This is entirely different; I can't opt out of someone not dying when I kill him, or seeing someone cheat death while occupying a role I wanted to try but never can because he lives forever, or having people around me behave like absolute morons because they don't worry about dying.

The mercy feature is going to completely change the shape of the game and the way people play, which isn't something you can just avoid by not using it yourself. Have you seen how unrealistically people roleplay on those soft-permadeath "roleplay enforced" MUDs? Being able to cancel death, even if there are limitations and circumstances, takes a huge toll on the integrity and gravity of the roleplaying environment.

Mind you, I'm not going to sit here and post some ultimatum about quitting if this is implemented. I'd let you test it if you really insist, but while I started this thread with the intent to not staunchly naysay the feature without giving it a chance, I have to say this is the very worst idea I have ever seen staff propose on any RPI. I wouldn't quit the game over it (not by default, anyway) but I don't think I would be able to take SOI seriously if staff genuinely thought this was something the game needed.
Last edited by Throttle on Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:15 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Songweaver » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:58 am

Most incidental PVP deaths don't happen because someone typed kill instead of hit and kept beating on an unconscious PC that they twink-battled. Most incidental PVP deaths happen when you hit them so hard that they skip being knocked out and go straight to being dead.

Mercy, in my understanding of it, wouldn't even affect this.

That said, I would be for a system that does this:

When a PC is "killed by another PC" (or knocked out) codely, they are put into a near death state (like being unconscious), and any further attempts to hit or kill them require adding a "!" to the end of the command with a prompt that asks to be certain that you want to kill them.

a) That gives those PCs, if they are going to be killed, another moment to throw out a last thought or something along those lines.

b) It keeps people who are actively trying to not immediately kill their enemies from accidentally killing them (this has happened to me before).

c) With a system message, it gives the staff a chance to step in and say, "Hold up a second here!"

No spending RPP. No strange, unexplainable bands of vNPCs running in to Chuck Norris someone to safety without any chance of roleplay (or even reconciliation for the other PCs). No way of cheating death, if your time is up.

If people are twink-killing, warn them. Temp-ban them. Permanent ban them. Resurrect their targets (with established guidelines). These are all things that can be done (and probably should be).

This Mercy buyout system ruins the integrity of SOI. I know that that's not the intention, but that will be the result. Don't consider my previous post to be an ultimatum; I'm just trying to explain how severely this decision would impact me and my ability to enjoy and play this game. I couldn't do it. Maybe others could, still.
Last edited by Songweaver on Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Matt » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:03 am

krelm wrote:
radioactivejesus wrote:
Matt wrote:If that's the case, a revamp of the rez policy is all that's needed.

This, please. The rez policy for dying to bugs should really be a no-brainer. For pvp I'd want there to be written rules and regulations to avoid any potential favouritism that might come from things being decided on a case by case basis


So...Rules of Engagement?


Whoa whoa whoa, let's never say RoE ever. I think it'd help to put out a guideline of sorts on what good PvP is. It'd also be good to have a chat after PvP engagements with elder staff with those involved on what went well and what went badly. If you nurture good PvP now and guide your dedicated players in the right direction they'll guide your new players.
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Re: Mercy

Postby EltanimRas » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:06 am

Nimrod wrote:If nobody likes the command, don't use it during our testing phase.

Let me say here that I'm not using it because I don't like it, and not just because I don't have any RPP. ;)

Otherwise, it's all been said already:
1. If the death was that OOC, why are we punishing the victim?
2. If it wasn't, why are we letting them escape it?
3. Since when is it okay for me to twink-kill 0RPP players?

I like Songweaver's alternate proposal.
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Re: Mercy

Postby MrT2G » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:18 am

I strongly disapprove of this 'mercy' thing. It only opens the potential for additional abuse and favoritism.

No. Nope. Not at all. Nothing. No thanks. Nuh-uh. Never. Not even once. Not now, not ever.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Holmes » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:29 am

krelm wrote:And my opinion, and Songweaver's opinion, and Throttle's opinion, and Matt's opinion, and Kory's opinion, and RadioactiveJesus' opinion, and Someguy's opinion-- who else am I missing?


I make a habit out of being contrary to about half of the people on the list, but I agree that the whole idea of this command goes utterly contrary to what makes an RPI worthwhile.

Also, just to note, the ARPI engine already makes killing someone slightly more difficult than it was on old SoI. If you wanted to improve on this, that bit of code would be where I'd do tweaking- as it is at the moment, you need to take a certain amount of damage to certain parts of your body in order to actually 'die'. Raising that threshold would be a much more immersive way of dealing with accidental murder.

The other issues that this purports to fix would equally be better served by other means.
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Re: Mercy

Postby radioactivejesus » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:17 am

Songweaver wrote:No, just guidelines for what level of twinkery should signal a resurrection from the staff. I think that's what he means.

exactly. People just getting killed without an emote sucks, but it's not really enough to constitute a rez. However, twinks are cunning creatures and I'm sure at some point, someone will find a way to kill someone in a spectacularly game-breaking and unjustifiable way. Stuff like getting killed by someone running multi-accounts with several characters from the same ip address, someone rolling up character after character and trying to pk you with every single one etc.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Rivean » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:50 am

Unlike the vast majority of players here, I'm not opposed to the idea on sheer principle. I was thinking just the other day about 'instance' based games and story telling (a mix between Interactive Fiction and a mud), and this is an idea I've toyed with my times over the years, to run such a game.

It would not be, I thought, impossible for characters to remain persistent throughout different 'episodes' of the game, and what happens in one episode (like, for example, death) need not carry over into the next one.

Anyway, point being, I'm not against the idea of non-permadeath in principle - if someone can come up with a way to make it work that makes sense, I'm at least willing to consider the idea.

That having been said, I DON'T think that the mercy command is a good idea. For several reasons:

1. The people most likely to benefit from such a command (people who are unused to permadeath) are newbies, who will not have RPP.

2. The command is blatantly OOC - My PC has your PC pinned to a tree with my giant trident of Noobslaying, but then your PC magically teleports to another location leaving my immersion shattered, with absolutely no IC way to make sense of what has happened.

3. Whether or not this is a good idea objectively (and I believe it isn't), the simple fact is that the idea is abhorrent to the community as a whole. Permadeath is one of the defining features of an RPI, and whether or not it is reasonable or fair, the community simply cannot abide such a drastic change. SOI will become the laughing stock of the RPI crowd.

4. All the other reasons that everybody else has come up with.

I'm not advocating this, but I think that any serious discussion of flexibility or modification when it comes to the permadeath rules would preclude death that involves other players - ie, only affecting PvE, as the bear that killed your PC doesn't really care that his IC world suddenly makes no sense when you get rezzed.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Gobbo » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:02 am

While I read through this entire thread I became increasingly against this idea. I hated it from the start but now I straight up despise 'mercy'.

What bothers me the most is that instead of staff back peddling and taking the feedback from the community and doing something else, they are 'DEFENDING' this awful idea and intending to put it in while ignoring the community anyway. This thread can be your alpha test, if the concept alone doesn't have any support its not something that will ever work.

I agree completely with Songweaver. If you increase the health buffer of unconscious people and increase the time it takes to bleed out while unconscious you will stop many people from getting instantly killed without rp. You will save some players who fall in combat and bleed out before rescue as well.

Far too many times in parallel rpi did people die because staff spawned a big baddie that could one shot people to death from 2 stars to dead, or knock them unconscious and have them bleed out before people could emote about trying to bind them. This was bad, this made people not want to face staff monsters.

Players also didn't want to face PK where guns could kill you outright way too easy. If you attacked someone with a gun you were very unlikely to capture them, they would bleed out before you could save them.

Therefore a larger buffer and slower bleedout while unconscious is a better idea than this crazy mercy command.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Rivean » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:06 am

Yes, on reading the whole thread, it's becoming increasingly clear that there are several better alternatives being proposed here that would address (partially or completely) the problems that the mercy command seeks to fix.

But even if this were not the case, I think there's a place for strong top side vision, but when your entire community is unanimously and adamantly against the idea, I think at that point, the best thing to do is simply let it go.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Jeshin » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:17 am

I was going to chime in on this thread. But I think the real impressive thing is that this is probably one of the most constructive responses to a bad idea that we've seen on the forum yet. It might be the unified agreement or maybe you guys are just getting real good at that constructive alternative thing.

+1 to a textbook 'good alpha discussion thread'
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Re: Mercy

Postby Rivean » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:28 am

Jeshin wrote:I was going to chime in on this thread. But I think the real impressive thing is that this is probably one of the most constructive responses to a bad idea that we've seen on the forum yet. It might be the unified agreement or maybe you guys are just getting real good at that constructive alternative thing.

+1 to a textbook 'good alpha discussion thread'


You mean after the initial 'let's all pack up and leave' suggestions, right? :lol:
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Re: Mercy

Postby Jeshin » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:32 am

There is nothing inherently wrong with stating that a new feature to a game will cause you to quit. As long as it is a sincere assessment of your continued enjoyment of the game that is literally the most important bit of information you can provide.

It's like saying, in poker we will allow you to take back 50% of your money if someone sucks out on you when they had no chance of winning. A lot of people would say they would stop playing poker in that situation. They would have every right to say that and it wouldn't be a threat against the official tournament poker organizations, but a mere fact.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Rivean » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:34 am

I want to get rich without doing any work. You, Jeshin, must be my master in playing poker and trading in commodities.

Also, more seriously, my last post was not meant to be taken seriously :P
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Re: Mercy

Postby Throttle » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:35 am

There's a few things that RPIs really can't mess with, like permadeath and multiplaying. These are set in stone and define the genre. This is a good chance to discuss the rez policy and the nature of PvP, however, so this whole mercy ordeal isn't all bad if it indirectly leads to some positive changes.

The rez policy, I think, should simply be what it always used to be in the past: you get a rez for bugs, gamebreaking design flaws, and completely indefensible grief PKing sprees that have no basis in roleplay.

I'm more interested in the nature of PvP. So far, it has been rather artificial in Mirkwood as the encounters have been based on little more than a desire to kill other people's characters for the sake of seeing them dead. That's never going to stop being a thing, especially when orcs are involved, but I think it could do with a bit more purpose.

Neither sphere has yet been a real threat to the other. Their respective PCs have been threats to each other, but the spheres themselves are completely unaffected by their counterparts. I think a lot could be done to take the PvP environment beyond what has so far felt more like a case of the Hatfields and McCoys taking turns killing each other in a self-perpetuating cycle.

Being good sports about PvP usually requires feeling that you're playing a game together rather than against each other. It doesn't mean you can't be enemies, but it means you shouldn't feel like you're enemies on an OOC level. If the PvP always takes the form of unsatisfying ganks and instakill ambushes with no point beyond robbing other players of their PCs, people are going to become OOC enemies. If instead there's a visible structure behind it, players are much more apt to take the PvP as a part of the story and approach it with an open mind.

Obviously not all the PvP is orcs vs. humans, but since I haven't played in Vadok Mal yet, I'm not going to pretend to know what's going on over there.
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Re: Mercy

Postby likui » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:20 am

Twink killers isn't anything a little bit of good ol' fashioned paranoia and extra precautions cannot handle.

I agree with the previous posts complaining about the disruption of the immersion it would cause. Nevertheless, it might not hurt to allow a similar safety net mechanism just for new players, something that would be deactivated after a certain period of play of their first character.

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Re: Mercy

Postby bjg2k1us » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:21 am

If the 'mercy' command were changed to immediately offer all your RPP to the person about to kill you in exchange for them reconsidering your fate, it would be entirely OOC and massively abusable, and still be better than this suggestion.
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Re: Mercy

Postby Jeshin » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:23 am

Actually Armageddon (not someone we want to emulate but worth examining) has a hardcoded safety net for newbs. If you die within 1 hour of your PCs creation you just respawn at the nearest tavern. This is primarily to save newbs who create and run out exploring not understanding how deadly things are.

The policy is that you are a different character who just happens to have the same name and backstory. Anything you experienced within that 1st hour happened to someone else. As you might imagine it rarely comes up with PKs because people tend not to PK 1 hour newbs. Except orcs?
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Re: Mercy

Postby hobbitboots » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:32 am

I don't think mercy is intended to protect newbs anyway. It requires RPP! :D

Mercy appears to be intended to protect clan leads from twink killers and ill advised solo hunting runs.
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Re: Mercy

Postby likui » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:33 am

Sounds like a great idea but maybe I'd extend the grace period to 6 hours or more of play.
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