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Learning in the Arena

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Learning in the Arena

Postby Real » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:53 pm

...

I've done this a number of times now and not gotten a skillup, I'm finding it difficult to rationalize using up these tremendous timers toward zero gain when some of the best crafts we have available are also 6 RL hours, don't take 15 minutes of emoting and leave me with something usable at the end.

Emoting extensively. Are we meant to emote like, every couple seconds or something? Do they have to be tons of short ones or can they be a medium amount of long ones?

The skills I'm training are Novice, Amateur and Familiar :/
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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby Jeshin » Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:02 pm

If you could provide roughly the times you were doing it and which crafts either in the thread or in a support ticket. I reckon on of the staff will make sure everything is working as intended or perhaps the ratios need to be tweaked.

Sadly I don't have an excuse to try out the training arena, how does it work exactly?
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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby tehkory » Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:05 pm

Real wrote:...

I've done this a number of times now and not gotten a skillup, I'm finding it difficult to rationalize using up these tremendous timers toward zero gain when some of the best crafts we have available are also 6 RL hours, don't take 15 minutes of emoting and leave me with something usable at the end.

Emoting extensively. Are we meant to emote like, every couple seconds or something? Do they have to be tons of short ones or can they be a medium amount of long ones?

The skills I'm training are Novice, Amateur and Familiar :/


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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby Tiamat » Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:10 pm

It works best when you're in the 30s range (Amateur) for skilling up. By emoting, you should at least make an effort to emote every round. The prog is set up to sound off every three minutes, so it gives you ample time to RP with your fellow opponent about the outcome of the spar.

And as tehkory said, sample sizes. I'd be curious to hear the effectiveness by other players that are using the arena.
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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby Real » Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:15 pm

Five times. 30 hours of my beloved timers :'(

Only average int though so I suppose I'm just complaining pre-emptively.
Everyone else, what results have you had?

Just saying, it's pretty dang easy to get similar skillups from 1v1ing a sow and then you can still craft to your heart's content.
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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby Tiamat » Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:19 pm

Real wrote:Just saying, it's pretty dang easy to get similar skillups from 1v1ing a sow and then you can still craft to your heart's content.


Well ... yes. But then you're in live combat and you have the potential of getting moderates and severes. That's the trade off. You're trading off safety of only getting a few minors, if any, as opposed to potentially getting floored by an unlucky crit and being out of commission for a day.
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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby hobbitboots » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:27 pm

I used it once last night and got bumps to all three skills. I have rather good int.

As an aside, a crash hit right in the middle of the training session. When we logged back in, the arena object showed as still occupied, but it was no longer giving us echoes. It seemed hung, so after a while I used the end spar craft in an attempt to just reset the thing, but amazingly we still both got our success messages and timers docked. So, pretty sturdy code from my perspective.
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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby Rivean » Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:20 pm

Only used it once. Three skills boosted. But my PC has peak int though.
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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby Songweaver » Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:00 am

My guess, Real, is that you are working on skills that are either new for you, or very high Familiar level, and have had a touch of bad luck. The likelihood of skillgain works on a bell-curve based on your skill level - with some randomization and other variables thrown in there.
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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby seenmycorpseanywhere » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:23 pm

I've tried it a few times, training "Sword" for which I -think- I have the skill Long-Blade (since someone taught it to my character) but it doesn't even appear in the list of skills.

All I've always got is something along the lines of "You are tired after the training." but nothing else. Not sure how this whole thing works, to be honest.
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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby Fulgrim » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:48 pm

For the record, skills between 1-9 haven't been "opened" yet, but that doesn't mean you don't have them or don't hit timers for them. It just takes a bit, then you climb up a ranking and it'll show as Beginner, and gains will start your climb towards Novice.

I can guarantee if you're using the skills/working the arena, you're probably making gains, they're just not readily apparent yet.
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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby Rivean » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:21 am

Fulgrim wrote:For the record, skills between 1-9 haven't been "opened" yet, but that doesn't mean you don't have them or don't hit timers for them. It just takes a bit, then you climb up a ranking and it'll show as Beginner, and gains will start your climb towards Novice.

I can guarantee if you're using the skills/working the arena, you're probably making gains, they're just not readily apparent yet.


But shouldn't he be receiving the skill up notifications from the Arena? Or is there some reason why you wouldn't get those until the skill is 'open' in your skills list?
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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby Fulgrim » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:52 am

In my experience observing it so far, the problem isn't with the skill checks not firing off, it's just with the reporter token not echoing the results. There's so many tokens that you guys don't see involved with this arena thinger-ma-bob that I honestly wonder if you're just drowning in tokens. Tokens all up ins.

At any rate, people have been skilling up even without being told they are. I would keep at it a bit longer than you have already before you start wondering if you're not getting anywhere. The process of getting from 1 to somewhere is a lot longer, or feels that way because of a combination of the arena taking a lot longer at the start and at the end (when you near Talented), and also because you can't monitor your progress for the first stage at all.

Finally, I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but your skill timers only tick down while you're logged in. Running the arena or sparring something, then dipping out, logging back in and repeating won't get you anywhere. No the above isn't a jab at anyone in particular, it's a genuine tidbit of information that saves you a lot of trouble if you didn't realize it before, because you end up having no idea how long the timers will take before what you're doing will mean anything. Generally a couple hours will do you alright.
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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby Rivean » Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:27 am

Fulgrim wrote:Finally, I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but your skill timers only tick down while you're logged in. Running the arena or sparring something, then dipping out, logging back in and repeating won't get you anywhere. No the above isn't a jab at anyone in particular, it's a genuine tidbit of information that saves you a lot of trouble if you didn't realize it before, because you end up having no idea how long the timers will take before what you're doing will mean anything. Generally a couple hours will do you alright.


That's really helpful to know, thank you.
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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby mongwen » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:00 pm

Caveat here, I've never actually tried the craft as my current PC isn't a combat one, but I don't like the concept of spending 15 minutes on some craft that judges whether you emote enough to suit some algorithm to decide whether you get a skill raise. I prefer the old way. A practice craft that let you do footwork drills and such, and sparring with fellow PCs or, failing that, with an NPC trainer. It's one of the many frustrations I'm finding with the new SOI. If you wanted to make the practice craft of less value than sparring, that'd be understandable as there are things you can only learn through combat, but putting in some test to decide whether I'm a fast enough or good enough emoter is no way to train up a skill. Skills are trained by crafts and uses, RP is social. The two can, do and should mix, but should not necessarily depend one on the other for effectiveness as this craft does it.
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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby Rivean » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:48 pm

mongwen wrote:Caveat here, I've never actually tried the craft as my current PC isn't a combat one, but I don't like the concept of spending 15 minutes on some craft that judges whether you emote enough to suit some algorithm to decide whether you get a skill raise. I prefer the old way. A practice craft that let you do footwork drills and such, and sparring with fellow PCs or, failing that, with an NPC trainer. It's one of the many frustrations I'm finding with the new SOI. If you wanted to make the practice craft of less value than sparring, that'd be understandable as there are things you can only learn through combat, but putting in some test to decide whether I'm a fast enough or good enough emoter is no way to train up a skill. Skills are trained by crafts and uses, RP is social. The two can, do and should mix, but should not necessarily depend one on the other for effectiveness as this craft does it.


I think this is one of those cases where you really ought to try it before forming your opinion. While I'm favor of reintroducing the practice commands, there's absolutely nothing wrong with this as it stands.

No counting the initial starting echo, the craft gives you three echoes in 15 minutes. You have 5 minutes between each echo, during which time you're emoting out a spar.

I don't believe you have to be a super fast typer or any sort of expert to get benefits from this.

Essentially, what it does is that it gives you the same benefits of having sparred, along with fewer injuries (leaving combat PCs ready to go in the case of emergencies), less boring spam, and encourages emoting and RP.

All round a solid idea.
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Re: Learning in the Arena

Postby EltanimRas » Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:05 pm

Old-fashioned sparring and the teach command are also both still viable, if you prefer those options, although sparring does have its dangers and limitations.
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