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Nests and Crafts

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Nests and Crafts

Postby Songweaver » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:42 am

I am all about nests and crafts, but looking these over I do have a concern:

Are these tests vs willpower and presence potential fails for the craft, meaning we'd have to start the craft again (and therefor summon all of the spawned mobs again)? That doesn't make much sense to me, personally.

I definitely feel like, if there are to be some kind of check with burning nests, it'd be better to be skill-based than stat based (especially a stat as esoteric as presence). Hunting, or even forage seem like they'd make more sense than willpower or presence to me.

Also, this seems like it might benefit from being a craftprog (and maybe it is and I just can't tell), where you run the craft multiple times to destroy the nest (and the nest in turn has hitpoints, and spits a mob or mobs out at you each time you run the craft, and those loads depend on the remaining number of hitpoints). Just a couple of thoughts.

I greatly encourage more things like this. Spawning nests are the win.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Jeshin » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:50 am

While I would agree from a purely game play aspect that a skill or perhaps more mainstream stat might be good. I would want to point out that in Tolkien presence is a rather crucial stat in heroic deeds. It's what allows the goodly folk to be inspired by their nobles and captains and face the unspeakable evils of the Necromancer and Mirkwood.

So from a purely RP standpoint I think presence is the best choice.

PS - Not just anyone should be able to do it, it should take someone who is codedly brave or inspiring. Let us not forget if you have a weak presence you shouldn't be RPing like you have a much higher one!
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby EltanimRas » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:11 am

Jeshin wrote:Let us not forget if you have a weak presence you shouldn't be RPing like you have a much higher one!

On the other hand, so long as presence doesn't show on 'score', we're all guessing to some extent.

[And all the mental stats are (from an RP standpoint, if not a coded one) open to a certain amount of interpretation.]
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Rivean » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:26 am

EltanimRas wrote:
Jeshin wrote:Let us not forget if you have a weak presence you shouldn't be RPing like you have a much higher one!

On the other hand, so long as presence doesn't show on 'score', we're all guessing to some extent.

[And all the mental stats are (from an RP standpoint, if not a coded one) open to a certain amount of interpretation.]


I'm also fairly certain that presently presence is unupgradeable - which is a problem if you're going to use it for important things like this.

On the other note about stats vs. RP, I think this is a derail that deserves its own thread (and I encourage anybody who disagrees with what I'm about to say to quote Jeshin and myself and start a new thread) but I think that it is very important NOT to mix RP with stats - stats exist for game balance. They are a part of how the mechanical code makes the PC fair.

But there is simply no realistic reason why my PC cannot be extremely (or extremely poorly) intelligent, willful, agile, and a good leader. But this is codedly impossible because of the way stat distribution is structured. In my opinion, the mechanic and balance limitations should be used for what they were intended to be used for - game balance. And not to impose unnatural limitations on PC concepts. I'm not going to play my PC as an idiot because the character generator decided to give me more strength at the expense of intelligence.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby EltanimRas » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:34 am

Rivean wrote:I encourage anybody who disagrees with what I'm about to say to quote Jeshin and myself and start a new thread

It's here: Stats vs. RP
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Zargen » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:16 am

From the orc side of things these crafts seem counter-productive.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Oblivion » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:26 am

Heh, maybe -our- end of things is to find the nests and protect them from pesky would-be do-gooders?
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby krelm » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:46 am

Just throwing this out there, I'm like 90% positive from a coding perspective that if we wandered into spiderland we'd get eaten just as badly as any human.

Unless they gave the spiders similar clanning to us, but I'm sure they didn't.

On topic, I sort of wish that they'd just nix presense altogether and turn it back into an invisible stat that's always at 10. I haven't found that it does absolutely anything (rescue and guard have worked just find for me on every character I've had), and including it as a check for nest-purging crafts makes it seem like people are flailing around for reasons to make it not worthless.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Troubadour » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:14 pm

Are these crafts meant to provide this nest burning concept as an everyday occurrence? To me this would seem more of an opportunity for an occasional intermittent RP long term event as oppose to the hack and slash type of daily non-role play route that it appears to take. I'm discouraged with the amount of coded combat that is taking over as opposed to developing more social, environmental and character development for the purpose of RP. Admittedly, I have not rolled up any combat-type characters but I'm definitely feeling at a loss for finding reasons to do so. This is not to say I do not appreciate the hard work from the staff, but is this the most feasible direction to be going? I know this post is delving off some from the intended topic, but as I said earlier, I'm feeling a loss of purpose to characters that are not in some way combat related.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Real » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:01 pm

Troubadour wrote:is this the most feasible direction to be going?


It gives combat PCs a cool, objective-based task to go for when we leave town, instead of just wandering and looking for roaming mobs. Patrols can have a designated purpose when they leave the gates, which is rarely a bad thing.

As for wanting more social, environmental roleplay...
Different strokes for different folks.
You can have both, and people with a combat slant don't necessarily dislike social RP but forcing it onto them by limiting opportunities is unnecessary if you can see that what they -are- willing to do is get together for a spider-slaying sesh. Let them be free. The Lodge has a bunch of new stuff happening as well, it's not like staff are only expanding in one direction.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Rivean » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:15 pm

Real wrote:It gives combat PCs a cool, objective-based task to go for when we leave town, instead of just wandering and looking for roaming mobs. Patrols can have a designated purpose when they leave the gates, which is rarely a bad thing.

As for wanting more social, environmental roleplay...
Different strokes for different folks.
You can have both, and people with a combat slant don't necessarily dislike social RP but forcing it onto them by limiting opportunities is unnecessary if you can see that what they -are- willing to do is get together for a spider-slaying sesh. Let them be free. The Lodge has a bunch of new stuff happening as well, it's not like staff are only expanding in one direction.


I think you'll find that 'live and let live' is not really a sustainable ideology here, unfortunately. Different strokes for different folks is well and good, but, and I've been saying this for a while, one of the fundamental problems with SOI3 (a problem that began in the late stages of SOI2 and early consolidation in Angost and then Caolafon) is that we have one sphere that caters to players demanding vastly different things from their game.

Without taking sides, let me say that the code, combat, OOC-meta element of the game is greatly detrimental to the IC atmosphere of those that want to focus more on immersion based roleplay - just as the demands and complaints of that group is making life unhappy for those that want to go out on patrol and have things to do.

We've ALWAYS had a playerbase that wanted diverging things. But in the past, the game was large enough to have both the Batts and the second circle, both the Tower and the Nebavla - and as an early and vocal proponent of consolidation, I must admit my mistake in not having foreseen the consequence of removing the space between those different player types and the different things they gave to and got from the game. Now, everyone is pressed together, and increasingly, there are incompatibilities.

I'm going go out on a limb and predict now that this is going to be one of the enduring problems of SOI3 and one that will leave many old school players (of one persuasion or the other) dissatisfied with the new atmosphere.

On a personal note, I have my own preferences, and I'm sure most of you can guess where those lie, but I don't believe my tastes are any more valid than those other people - the key thing here is not that I am right and the rest of you are noobs who don't know how to RP. The key thing is that we want different things from the game, and those differences are going to hurt.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Fulgrim » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:28 pm

Woah, woah, woah...

Guys.

The craft launches into beginning phases, you lift your torch, and if you fail the roll, you lower the torch, and nothing else happens. The nest still has the same number of uses until it gets burned out. Why is this? Is this so that we can police your RP? Honestly, no, it's for game balance.

And as for presence? What happens near the end of the craft? Why is this check there? To determine how often a more dangerous enemy appears...there's no other reason. Sometimes, about half the time the way we balanced it, a poison spider or a matriarch (on the end stage nests) will appear. Sometimes they won't. About half the time they won't. Why did we do this? To say your character had no backbone, and they shouldn't be burning these nests if they got no guts?

No...it was for game balance, primarily.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Alcarin » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:34 pm

Songweaver wrote:I am all about nests and crafts, but looking these over I do have a concern:

Are these tests vs willpower and presence potential fails for the craft, meaning we'd have to start the craft again (and therefor summon all of the spawned mobs again)? That doesn't make much sense to me, personally.


These are potential pass/fail checks. If you fail the check, you do NOT summon any mobs. Willpower to see if you are brave enough to provoke giant spiders, presence to see if you provoke extra attention from them (most PCs should not provoke this extra attention, or will only do so occasionally).

Songweaver wrote:I definitely feel like, if there are to be some kind of check with burning nests, it'd be better to be skill-based than stat based (especially a stat as esoteric as presence). Hunting, or even forage seem like they'd make more sense than willpower or presence to me.

I considered making them a skill-based check, but there isn't very much skill involved in using a torch to light something huge on fire. There would be a bit of bravery required to see if you're willing to challenge them to a fight, however, so willpower seemed to make the most sense for "Will I succeed in starting this fight?"

As for the presence check, this was the closest method crafting (without progs) would allow me to give a chance of loading a more dangerous mob. I chose presence because it is intended as the attribute that describes how noticeable a character is, and how likely to attract attention.

Thus, it makes sense that if you succeed in a presence check, greater foes may emerge from the monster pit to challenge you. This is why characters in LOTR that could be considered to have high presence (Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, Aragorn, whomever) usually preferred to act through intermediaries - it drew less attention from their enemies than if they were gallivanting off to do every deed, themselves.

Songweaver wrote:Also, this seems like it might benefit from being a craftprog (and maybe it is and I just can't tell), where you run the craft multiple times to destroy the nest (and the nest in turn has hitpoints, and spits a mob or mobs out at you each time you run the craft, and those loads depend on the remaining number of hitpoints). Just a couple of thoughts.

While the crafts themselves do not have progs on them, the webs do indeed require multiple applications of the appropriate craft to destroy them completely. Which means multiple fights with spiders, depending on the size of the webs.

Be warned, even the nest object will take multiple applications of the craft to destroy, and on average, a nest will USUALLY provide at least one boss fight.

Luckily, nests are exceedingly rare, unless you guys let things get completely out of hand. In which case we might have to step in.

Songweaver wrote:I greatly encourage more things like this. Spawning nests are the win.

I'm glad to hear it! Hopefully my answers above will make things seem a little bit less arbitrary.


As a note to everyone else: I will read through this thread as the day progresses and respond to other concerns as I have time.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Fulgrim » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:37 pm

Troubadour wrote:A lot of stuff regarding combat.


I'm just gonna keep cherry picking posts.

Why stop working on methods to provide A: Danger, B: Fights and C: Something tangible for combat PCs to do, objective-wise? Maybe if they do something about it, they'll actually be rewarded for their efforts, rather than have a lot of sticky bug corpses to show for it?

Does this mean we're not even thinking about the people who don't want to step outside the walls, or at least don't want to do it with seeing some action as their primary reason for being there? Nope...not really, we're just working on what we're working on. There are a million aspects of code for us to test, and this is one for us to drop onto the grid without having much interaction with to give people something to do.

Why does it have to be a end-all-be-all statement from staff that it's a direction the game is taking? It's just a bunch of RPAs with the spare time on their hands showing the game some love.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Fulgrim » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:40 pm

Zargen wrote:From the orc side of things these crafts seem counter-productive.


And the cherry picking continues.

While I may be contributing to some degree on object building, mobs and helping balance by observing events, genuinely being an all-around go-getter, primarily I've been watching the Orc sphere, I've been writing for the orc sphere, but what I was left with was a lot of far-spanning plots and not a lot of in-progress "daily activities" to throw at you, which I'm going to be getting to very soon if I can help it.

I would like to know how putting work into a system that can be re-purposed to some degree for automatic threat is counter productive--which would be vaguely insulting after the work put into it if I wasn't really surprised to hear someone would think that, so it's whatever--since this is just one small aspect of the game that will be added in alongside many other aspects...and at that, it's under duress, it's being tested, it may not make it to Open in it's current form. Because we want it tested.

Faith plox.

ETA: I was just informed Zargen was joking, and what the joke actually was...

...and I feel silly now.

STILL for anyone who absolutely hates the time we put into this, read the above and feel pity for me. :lol:
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Alcarin » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:48 pm

Troubadour wrote:I'm discouraged with the amount of coded combat that is taking over as opposed to developing more social, environmental and character development for the purpose of RP.


Troubadour wrote:I'm feeling a loss of purpose to characters that are not in some way combat related.


I'm glad someone brought this point up, actually. One of the biggest OOC factors in bringing a mostly code-automated combat challenge into the world for testing, is to free up staff time that would normally go to providing antagonists that the combat PCs can strive against into bringing more depth and variety into the gameworld.

I've already spent a large portion of my online time the past two days (since we went live with these webs) working on building crafts and helping to work on/think about plots that focus on more than just 'Kill the Monster!'

So, while it may look very discouraging for the more social side of the game to have automated monster hunts being tested out... It's actually ultimately helpful to the social side of the game, since it frees up staff time and energy to focus on that, next.


In other words, this was the easy stuff that could be quickly put together and approved for PP testing. Non-Combat has good stuff coming, too, but we only have so many hands and so much time to try and accomplish everything!
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Alcarin » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:53 pm

krelm wrote:Just throwing this out there, I'm like 90% positive from a coding perspective that if we wandered into spiderland we'd get eaten just as badly as any human.

Unless they gave the spiders similar clanning to us, but I'm sure they didn't.

On topic, I sort of wish that they'd just nix presense altogether and turn it back into an invisible stat that's always at 10. I haven't found that it does absolutely anything (rescue and guard have worked just find for me on every character I've had), and including it as a check for nest-purging crafts makes it seem like people are flailing around for reasons to make it not worthless.



Presently, the spiders used in this craft are not clanned similarly to the orcs, you are correct in that.

However, these spiders also are not being tested out on orcs at this time. They might be in the future, but that is up to Fulgrim and co to decide upon.

Keep in mind, however, that just as not every single orc in all of Mirkwood is part of one homogenous tribe, not every single spider in all of Mirkwood is part of one homogenous clutch.

So even if the orcs did manage to become friendly with a group of spiders, that does not necessarily mean that every spider in the gameworld will automatically be friendly with orcs.


Also, as noted above, the presence check in this craft was included as a way to add a chance of fiercer fights when assaulting the spiders in their home. It's willpower that is required to actually begin the fight in the first place.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Rivean » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:03 pm

On topic - I'm confused by Fulgrim's posts. This seems to be happening to me on a fairly frequent basis.

I think what he's saying is that if you PASS your presence/willpower checks, only THEN will you have to fight a monster?

If I've gotten that right, you're essentially saying that I want to fail my test. And that having a high presence is actively bad for me.

ETA: Even if the presence part of this test setup makes some sort of weird sense (presence attracts monsters, if you want your PC to fight monsters, pick high presence), the willpower part of this totally baffles me. I mean, I may be brave enough to provoke a giant spider, but that doesn't mean that I'm stupid enough to want to do so. This assumes that my PC is as ICly bloodthirsty for spider combat as the player may OOCly be for combat in general, whereas any sensible PC will want to get the objective done without having to risk life and limb and the lives of those following.

Argh!
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Fulgrim » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:18 pm

I don't know what to tell you...as I am too cool for school. 8-)
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Icarus » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:21 pm

Is there a faint possibility of folks checking this stuff out without trying to dissect the statistical nuances of how we programmed the thing? Doesn't that spoil things for you guys, when it's more about dice rolls than story?
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Rivean » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:29 pm

Icarus wrote:Is there a faint possibility of folks checking this stuff out without trying to dissect the statistical nuances of how we programmed the thing? Doesn't that spoil things for you guys, when it's more about dice rolls than story?


Alas, no. My PC does not think that poking at a spider nest and hoping something nasty comes out is particularly smart behavior. And as you well know, he has peak int :P

More seriously, I do think that the willpower thing needs to be looked at if I've understood it correctly (and I may not have). While the player may wish to encounter nasty things to kill, this should only be an IC motivation for somewhat psychopathic PCs. Any sensible PC leader would want all the spiders inside and burning to death instead of outside and chewing on his or her followers.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Fulgrim » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:39 pm

I honestly--on further reflection--don't think you know what you're talking about, and I hope that doesn't offend you Rivean, at least in this particular, specific case.

The motivation is...there are A: Spiders here. B: They are continually expanding their colony. C: The only effective way to drive them out from an area fully and completely appears to be fire. Fire bad. Spiders hate fire. Fire burn. Burn spiders!

The motivation? Burn the nests. Why? They get bigger otherwise. What happens when they get bigger? Spiders range outside of their immediate domain, in greater numbers.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Alcarin » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:41 pm

Rivean wrote:
Icarus wrote:Is there a faint possibility of folks checking this stuff out without trying to dissect the statistical nuances of how we programmed the thing? Doesn't that spoil things for you guys, when it's more about dice rolls than story?


Alas, no. My PC does not think that poking at a spider nest and hoping something nasty comes out is particularly smart behavior. And as you well know, he has peak int :P

More seriously, I do think that the willpower thing needs to be looked at if I've understood it correctly (and I may not have). While the player may wish to encounter nasty things to kill, this should only be an IC motivation for somewhat psychopathic PCs. Any sensible PC leader would want all the spiders inside and burning to death instead of outside and chewing on his or her followers.


While it makes perfect sense that you shouldn't WANT to fight giant spiders unless you're just a silly thrill junkie...

The desire not to want to fight a monster does take willpower to overcome, and make yourself take an action that will provoke them. This is an act of courage and bravery, which is best represented by a test against one's willpower.

Your reward for getting up the nerve to light the spider web on fire is two part: One part is IC, one part is OOC.

The IC part of the reward is, you've done damage to the home of monsters, and have taken one step closer to destroying all of them, even though you had to fight some of them.

The OOC part of the reward is, of course, you got to roleplay fighting monsters.



OOC mechanics exist for OOC reasons. IC motivations exist for IC reasons.

The two cannot always coincide perfectly. Unfortunately, it would require progging to make the craft have a chance of burning up every single spider in every single web if you throw the torch well enough, or whatever. But even if we were inclined to do such a thing, it would make very little sense.


Just because your PC wants to avoid fighting monsters, does not mean that OOC mechanics should enable you to avoid fighting monsters, if you take the IC steps of going to attack their home.


In short: If your PC doesn't want to battle monsters, well, good news! That's what the combat PCs are there for. So long as you aren't out throwing torches at spider nests, you're very unlikely to have to deal with the consequences of pissing off a bunch of giant spiders.


Bolded one section above to help the important point of this post stand out more easily.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby hobbitboots » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:51 pm

As a (sort of) outsider looking it, I think the spider nests are the start of a solid system. Patrols have always been something that military clans want to do. If there's no obvious reason to do it, then one will be made up. Wildlife will be slaughtered.

With the spider nests, there is an extremely compelling reason to go out and burn the nests. It gives danger and excitement to those who are looking for it, obvious hooks for storylines involving even the village dwellers (you're not looking hard enough if you don't see them), and it frees up staff to work on other things.

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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Rivean » Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:30 pm

Alcarin wrote:In short: If your PC doesn't want to battle monsters, well, good news! That's what the combat PCs are there for. So long as you aren't out throwing torches at spider nests, you're very unlikely to have to deal with the consequences of pissing off a bunch of giant spiders.


I think the implication is faulty that my PC doesn't want to battle monsters but combat PCs do want to battle monsters - their players do, but I really don't think the PCs invariably do.

Otherwise, your post did clarify but my question then remains, shouldn't the monsters only spawn when I fail a craft? Why is my PC trying to succeed at a craft that spawns monsters?
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