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Nests and Crafts

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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby krelm » Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:35 pm

Rivean wrote:Otherwise, your post did clarify but my question then remains, shouldn't the monsters only spawn when I fail a craft? Why is my PC trying to succeed at a craft that spawns monsters?


Craft fails, nothing happens-- the nest and monsters are still there.

Craft passes, the nest gets burned, putting it one step closer to destruction (or maybe actually destroying it) and monsters spawn because their home is on fire.
Last edited by krelm on Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Fulgrim » Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:36 pm

Throwing fire provokes enemies into action, but -thinking- about throwing fire and then not, doesn't.

I don't really see the like...point of getting into this. It's almost like saying "take out what willpower has to do with this! No willpower check!" Or something similar, probably not that actually. I don't know.

I think it isn't a stretch for someone resolved to do something about the nest of monsters getting ready to throw a torch, but they have to psyche themselves up multiple times because they're surrounded by a hellish landscape of carnage.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Rivean » Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:39 pm

krelm wrote:
Rivean wrote:Otherwise, your post did clarify but my question then remains, shouldn't the monsters only spawn when I fail a craft? Why is my PC trying to succeed at a craft that spawns monsters?


Craft fails, nothing happens-- the nest and monsters are still there.

Craft passes, the nest gets burned, putting it one step closer to destruction (or maybe actually destroying it) and monsters spawn because their home is on fire.


Ah, thank you! This made infinite sense. I was operating under the impression that it went like this:

Craft stage 1 fail, nothing happens.

Craft stage 1 success, the nest gets burned. Craft fail stage 2, nothing further happens.

Craft stage 1 success, the nest gets burned. Craft stage 2 success, spiders spawn.

Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Alcarin » Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:42 pm

Rivean wrote:
krelm wrote:
Rivean wrote:Otherwise, your post did clarify but my question then remains, shouldn't the monsters only spawn when I fail a craft? Why is my PC trying to succeed at a craft that spawns monsters?


Craft fails, nothing happens-- the nest and monsters are still there.

Craft passes, the nest gets burned, putting it one step closer to destruction (or maybe actually destroying it) and monsters spawn because their home is on fire.


Ah, thank you! This made infinite sense. I was operating under the impression that it went like this:

Craft stage 1 fail, nothing happens.

Craft stage 1 success, the nest gets burned. Craft fail stage 2, nothing further happens.

Craft stage 1 success, the nest gets burned. Craft stage 2 success, spiders spawn.

Sorry for the confusion.


You were close. It's actually a case of:

Craft stage 1 fail, nothing happens.
Craft stage 1 success, nest is burned and monsters come out to defend their home.
Craft stage 2 fail, nothing else occurs.
Craft stage 2 success, you are very unlucky and even worse monsters are here to defend their home.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Rivean » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:00 pm

Alcarin wrote:You were close. It's actually a case of:

Craft stage 1 fail, nothing happens.
Craft stage 1 success, nest is burned and monsters come out to defend their home.
Craft stage 2 fail, nothing else occurs.
Craft stage 2 success, you are very unlucky and even worse monsters are here to defend their home.


I can clearly see why an initial willpower check would be required now (though it may lead to awkward situations when you have people turn out to be cowards on a repeated basis - or even worse, 'Wait, let me try again, I'm sure I can do it this time!')

I think it's really counterintuitive that a successful stage 2 should result in really bad luck. On the one hand, I can see how it makes sense that the higher your presence, the more you're likely to draw evil things towards you, but if it starts becoming a detectable pattern that the vicious spiders have a personal beef with John Doe and will frequently make an appearance when he's around, then sensible PC leaders will ask John Doe to stay at home.

Now, I realize that this probably won't happen in the game, because who doesn't want more blood and guts and spider hacking, and John Doe will become a favorite on every patrol (unless of course, everybody gets killed, I hear this new stuff is supposed to be scareh :P). I do think that's not necessarily a direction we want to encourage though.

Also, since I can detect no noticeable benefit (from what others have said) of having presence - it seems its most significant affect is to make you more of an attractive target for high level mobs.

Why on earth should anyone pick presence - at the expense of other stats even? Even if it's some kind of 'Hardmode' for combat PCs who like to live dangerously, one would think there ought to be some incentive to take it, rather than cost (opportunity cost of lost stats that one might have taken instead of high presence).

I dunno. This is really kind of weird. I don't have a problem with the general idea of nests and spawns and murderous spiders, but this business of succeeding crafts in order to make your PC's life more miserable and/or shortlived is really odd.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby tehkory » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:09 pm

Rivean wrote:
Alcarin wrote:You were close. It's actually a case of:

Craft stage 1 fail, nothing happens.
Craft stage 1 success, nest is burned and monsters come out to defend their home.
Craft stage 2 fail, nothing else occurs.
Craft stage 2 success, you are very unlucky and even worse monsters are here to defend their home.


I can clearly see why an initial willpower check would be required now (though it may lead to awkward situations when you have people turn out to be cowards on a repeated basis - or even worse, 'Wait, let me try again, I'm sure I can do it this time!')

I think it's really counterintuitive that a successful stage 2 should result in really bad luck. On the one hand, I can see how it makes sense that the higher your presence, the more you're likely to draw evil things towards you, but if it starts becoming a detectable pattern that the vicious spiders have a personal beef with John Doe and will frequently make an appearance when he's around, then sensible PC leaders will ask John Doe to stay at home.

Now, I realize that this probably won't happen in the game, because who doesn't want more blood and guts and spider hacking, and John Doe will become a favorite on every patrol (unless of course, everybody gets killed, I hear this new stuff is supposed to be scareh :P). I do think that's not necessarily a direction we want to encourage though.

Also, since I can detect no noticeable benefit (from what others have said) of having presence - it seems its most significant affect is to make you more of an attractive target for high level mobs.

Why on earth should anyone pick presence - at the expense of other stats even? Even if it's some kind of 'Hardmode' for combat PCs who like to live dangerously, one would think there ought to be some incentive to take it, rather than cost (opportunity cost of lost stats that one might have taken instead of high presence).

I dunno. This is really kind of weird. I don't have a problem with the general idea of nests and spawns and murderous spiders, but this business of succeeding crafts in order to make your PC's life more miserable and/or shortlived is really odd.

Presence is an inherently terrible stat that effects less than the other 'intellectual' stats, comes at the expense of other stats, and attempts to represent certain characters that were/are better-represented by giving them 'boosts' in other stats.

The Dunedain should have high presence, maybe. They're a noticeable threat to evil, sure. But the -results- for why they're a noticeable threat to evil come from the actions they produce; they stand strong(willpower), they craft beautifully(dex/int), and they fight admirably(agility/str/con). Maybe they have a stronger fea...but never does this 'fea' strength come at the expense of other abilities. Look at Feanor! His Goddamn presence was so high that when he died, HIS BODY COMBUSTED FROM THE FORCE OF HIS SPIRIT LEAVING IT! Surely, with that high of a presence, his other stats would suffer. Except he fought balrogs. And created the Silmarils. And swore an Oath to stand against anything every created yet or able to created from than on, to fight a God itself and try to tear it down...and he took entire races with him in this delusion.

Presence is silly.

ETA:
Presence is sillier than -Power-, when it comes to both game design -and- lore. There. I said it!
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Troubadour » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:13 pm

Rivean wrote:Without taking sides, let me say that the code, combat, OOC-meta element of the game is greatly detrimental to the IC atmosphere of those that want to focus more on immersion based roleplay - just as the demands and complaints of that group is making life unhappy for those that want to go out on patrol and have things to do.



Everything said in Rivean's post, I feel exactly, however the above I find especially true.

I will stress, I don't want to take anything away from the players that enjoy the combat, however I do ask that you involve those that don't. Come back to town with news, come back to town with stories, honest or exaggerated, but don't forget to include the ones that work hard back behind the gates and fences too. And I don't mean just a short post on the boards with a head count - that's not role-play, that just posted news. There have been a number of times when combat characters have come back to town, and nosy non-combat characters have been brushed off, ignored or there's been statements that tend to be contrary to what's actually happened that leave (me, mostly) confused.

There are those that do, but I wish there were more that would.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Troubadour » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:22 pm

And now I play catch up.

If characters spawn spiders and become overwhelmed, is there a possibility that spiders can get passed them and invade/overrun the town? How do the nests come about? Do staff/players spawn the nests or does the game itself? Is it just one nest that grows or multiple small nests throughout the forest and how close are these things actually to town?

editted to add Will the town be able to meet to discuss the why's and what-fors regarding these nests? Will the Overseers have a say?

editted part 2And really, I don't think I'm asking these questions to get answered here. They should be answered in game, however, I'm curious if staff actually takes questions like these into consideration before introducing something new.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Fulgrim » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:33 pm

1) The spiders will roam around when spawned, except matriarchs, which morph away after a couple IG days.

2) The crafts themselves do all the loading, we will no longer have to (nor want to) load spiders. The amount of spiders "in fake-real space" is predetermined now, in a sense.

3) Nests are spread into the adjacent rooms of a high phase nest being in one room.

4) Staff has to spawn the initial nests, and may remove nests if they so desire, for the game world to see hide or hair of them.

5) They are in a specific area in a specific direction from Utterby, and there is a buffer zone of nomob rooms keeping them there, for the most part, unless animated directly.

6) Tentatively, yes. I'll bring it up to Icarus and Frigga.

7) We do, but we work on what we work on. It doesn't mean anything special about how I feel about one subset of the player base compared to another. I love all of you, but you gotta let us do what we're capable of at our own rate, which I think is pretty prompt.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Alcarin » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:41 pm

Just saying, the vast majority of the concerns now being raised can be very easily determined in-game by looking at the objects and crafts.

As for the town's reaction to this, that will be revealed IC in due course.


ETA: One other item while I'm thinking of it. Presence is not intended as 'hard mode' for PCs. If you have average presence, you have a pretty small chance of encountering very many extra mobs, with one RARE exception wherein a "boss" was desired roughly half the time.

If you think spiders have a personal beef with one particular PC, why not have him along to help kill the spiders and allow a different PC to burn the webs?
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Troubadour » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:47 pm

Awesome, thanks Fulgrim.

Would just like to comment on 5) and 7)

Let them overrun Utterby :twisted:

I love you guys too! And I don't like to being a pest which is probably why I don't often voice my opinions. I know you work hard on these game elements, but I do think in some cases it's good to question what they bring to the game regarding all concerned.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Rivean » Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:02 pm

Alcarin wrote:If you think spiders have a personal beef with one particular PC, why not have him along to help kill the spiders and allow a different PC to burn the webs?


Because it is plainly and obviously meta game. It's just as bad as 'Wait wait, I know I can toss in the torch THIS time! Hold on!'

It's, 'No, Bob you throw the torch. If Jim throws the torch, there will be goddamn spiders everywhere.'

In the unfortunate event that I am playing Bob in this scenario, I will be banging my head against the keyboard.

Why are you guys so sold on the 'success = spawn super monster' idea in the first place? Why don't you just make it a failure or even a random chance event?

Why are we going in circles about a basic IC/OOC conflict where the code is forcing my PC to succeed at a craft he wants to fail at, in order to provide OOC gratification to me, the player?
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Alcarin » Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:07 pm

Rivean wrote:Why are you guys so sold on the 'success = spawn super monster' idea in the first place? Why don't you just make it a failure or even a random chance event?

Why are we going in circles about a basic IC/OOC conflict where the code is forcing my PC to succeed at a craft he wants to fail at, in order to provide OOC gratification to me, the player?

Oh, silly me. I was going to quote where I answered this in a previous post, but it looks like I accidentally'd that answer, somewhere.

The reason that the mobs only load if you succeed on your attribute check is a very simple one: Craft code does not currently allow mobs to be spawned on a failed check (else we'd have much more interesting hunting crafts, for example).

It's one of those pesky things where it's either delay any sort of automated feature until 6+ months in the future when the coder MIGHT have time to overhaul that particular aspect of code... Or do the current workarounds.

Unless you'd prefer there to be no attribute check whatsoever, and you simply use a craft and have monsters loaded up to fight?

I actually did think about doing it with no skill or attribute checks whatsoever. The concern there was that I didn't want it to be too easy for a PC to load, say, 15 spiders to run free next through the Mirkwood.



ETA: And once again, your character should WANT to succeed at this craft.

The success on the craft is that you successfully burn the spider's home.

The downside of burning a spider's home, in this case, is that the spider is the size of a warg and wants revenge.

I thought we covered that particular angle of this conversation a page ago.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Rivean » Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:10 pm

Ah! We have limitations we can't work around. That sucks, but nothing to be done about that :(

Is there some way you could have it randomly spawn or not spawn on the successful nest burning? If not, then I agree, we make do with what we have, and withdraw all objections.

ETA in order to respond to ETA: I never had any objections to the first success. It was the second success and the extra hard monster spawn that I've had a problem with.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Fulgrim » Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:12 pm

I know you're not trying to come off this way Rivean, or I can guess at it, but you sound like we're stuck on something and it's actually the opposite. It is just a method of determining what players have to contend with. You're coming off as stuck on details that are very minor to me and Alcarin because it just facilitates the events in the first place. The code behind it shouldn't matter, it is the amount of danger we desire you to face while burning these nests.

The amount of mobs you kill is the amount we wanted you to kill, at the end of the day. Someone running the craft and spawning a spider could be noted by the enterprising web slinger, just as easily as -not-. Getting hung up over why it happens to Bob when he throws the torch but not Joe even though Bob is there isn't getting you anywhere.

It is a simple justification for a still yet simple system and we had considered all of the possibilities you could have while designing it.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Alcarin » Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:20 pm

Rivean wrote:Ah! We have limitations we can't work around. That sucks, but nothing to be done about that :(

Is there some way you could have it randomly spawn or not spawn on the successful nest burning? If not, then I agree, we make do with what we have, and withdraw all objections.


In order to make it random, we'd have to use a craft prog (which would, of course, steal our coders' valuable time and energy).

The work-around then, would be to check against an attribute that 99% of players 'dump' and adjust the percentage check to where mobs will spawn at the desired rate for that 99% of players. Enter Presence.

It would be possible to have no spiders at all show up if you're burning their nest... But only if we add a third attribute check of some kind for it to check against.

For example, it could become something like 'roll vs willpower to be brave and throw the torch.' followed by 'roll vs presence easy to see if spiders decide to defend their nest <hint: they almost always would in this scenario, so you'd only have a very rare percentage of times when they wouldn't come out>, followed by ANOTHER roll vs presence (harder) to see if the fight becomes more challenging than normal.

The current system was simply an easier work-around for the limited tools we are currently working with. Especially once we tested the difficulty of the mobs and got that tweaked to where we wanted it.

As Fulgrim says, above, the number of mobs that can be loaded by these crafts are the number of mobs we want players to be facing at one time, barring exceptional circumstances, and the presence checks are balanced to set the rate of harder battles roughly where we want them, without being able to just tell craft code "Only do this one time in ten."


Rivean wrote:ETA in order to respond to ETA: I never had any objections to the first success. It was the second success and the extra hard monster spawn that I've had a problem with.


Fair enough.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby krelm » Sun Aug 17, 2014 6:34 pm

Also, on the bright side, now there's shit for combat characters to do other than sit around and idle all day and then complain about all the people idling on the forums.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Raukran » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:42 pm

krelm wrote:Also, on the bright side, now there's shit for combat characters to do other than sit around and idle all day and then complain about all the people idling on the forums.


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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby EltanimRas » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:20 am

Rivean wrote:I can clearly see why an initial willpower check would be required now (though it may lead to awkward situations when you have people turn out to be cowards on a repeated basis - or even worse, 'Wait, let me try again, I'm sure I can do it this time!')

Not to embarrass myself in front of everybody on SoI or anything, but have you noticed it sometimes takes me three matches to light your stove?

And that's just giant flames, no spiders. ;)

Otherwise, presence is a little strange, but so long as nobody reacts to it by making a weird meta-game issue of who should light the nests (e.g., Bob lights them when we have a small group, Jim if we have a big group), then I don't see it being terribly jarring. PCs can guess at why sometimes more spiders come and sometimes they don't (if they notice any pattern at all); I don't think the actual reason's going to be too ICly obvious.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Justanothacivy » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:00 am

I believe the minor details being discussed above can be sorted out with this.

Currently
1. I 'Pass' a check, but something bad happens? wtfbbq I passed and bad stuff happened? I'm cornfused.

Proposed
1. I pass the check. Hard monster is spawned. Oh no!!!

but....

2. More of the web is destroyed. Yayyy!! Even if just a small amount this does make more sense on a pass/fail scenario.

Do I think this absolutely must happen or nothing makes sense anymore? No. :mrgreen:

I just think it will be easier to accept in a pass/fail scenario. You pass the check and...."The fire continues to burn provoking a monstrous scary looking spider to come forward and defend it's home!" Why does my presence make the fire burn longer?

Science. :geek:
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Fulgrim » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:10 am

Oh gosh...the fire itself provokes spiders into a frenzy, and some attack. On the off chance that your character looks particularly prominent in some manner, another spider will appear. Is it because the fire burned hotter or farther? No. Where's the justification for a successful roll punishing you?

It's not punishing you...well it is, but that's not...


How do I put this? If we progged this craft to do essentially the same thing, that'd be cool with you, I'm assuming. But left as it is, it leaves a sour taste because it has something to do with stats.

Me and Alcarin don't really hold stats on the same level that we hold roleplay. Stats aren't everything. They are representations of what you can do at your fingertips in terms of code, and they sort of guide you along the role you had in mind from chargen and the outset of your roleplay, but they hardly matter as -much- as your roleplay.

So yes, the craft does X, and it has something to do with your coded stats, but the -actual- IC reason for this occurring (spiders attacking) has only a -minimal- amount to do with the presence of your character. On average it appears only very interesting and powerful figures hold a high level of presence on their own, or those with other qualities worth noting other than skill or beauty or strength. So the average person is as attractive a meal to that extra poison spider who JUST happened to be nearby as the next, practically.

Really.

Really really.

Forealsies.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Rivean » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:21 am

Fulgrim wrote:It's not punishing you...well it is, but that's not...


Man, you're adorable!
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Songweaver » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:22 am

I didn't mean to initiate such a vibrant discussion of this. Two quick things.

1) Nests are great. Automated things to do are great.
2) Crafts are limited and kind of awkward. If you ever need help putting together a script to help support a nest or something else, feel free to PM me. I'm happy to whip something up in notepad.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Justanothacivy » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:49 am

I was addressing more the OOC reasoning behind the second check. I honestly have no qualms with the way it is right now.

A player would just probably feel like they were being rewarded instead of punished if they pass the second check and are rewarded in some small way.
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Re: Nests and Crafts

Postby Fulgrim » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:50 pm

Songweaver wrote:I didn't mean to initiate such a vibrant discussion of this. Two quick things.

1) Nests are great. Automated things to do are great.
2) Crafts are limited and kind of awkward. If you ever need help putting together a script to help support a nest or something else, feel free to PM me. I'm happy to whip something up in notepad.


I would honestly really appreciate it, but Alcarin should also be cool with it, since this is his baby.
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