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Presence

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Presence

Postby krelm » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:32 pm

Can we talk about this? I'll try not to come off as a dick.

Presence is worthless. I've seen it said that it determines how well you guard/rescue (it doesn't, tested and proven), and I've seen it said it determines how well you ride mounts (which we don't have). It doesn't show up on your score card, you can't use it with the upgrade command, and you can't even roll against it.

So, with no pros and heaps of cons...can we get rid of it? Can we go back to the original RPI+ engine style of having a hidden stat that stays at a static 10 while your pool gets distributed to the rest of your (worthwhile) stats? It's not like anyone rolls a character with presence first, anyway, so on most characters it's already at 9/10.

There's just no reason to even have it. It's frustrating.
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Re: Presence

Postby Matt » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:37 pm

Yea, presence makes no sense. It's something that was added and completely abandoned. I say that because it has 0 use and was never even added to score. It'd be a decent RP stat to have for certain characters to roll against but that's not even possible.
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Re: Presence

Postby tehkory » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:43 pm

Matt wrote:Yea, presence makes no sense. It's something that was added and completely abandoned. I say that because it has 0 use and was never even added to score. It'd be a decent RP stat to have for certain characters to roll against but that's not even possible.

Another worry is that some poor newbie will put it first, well-meaningly, and end up with a pretty terrible character mechanically/turned off from the game.
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Re: Presence

Postby Frigga » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:43 pm

It seems the smarter thing here is to add more support and uses, not remove a stat and need to rebalance every PC in game. ;)

I'm actually sort of tempted to make some gambling crafts/progs that call on it.
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Re: Presence

Postby Raukran » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:45 pm

Frigga wrote:It seems the smarter thing here is to add more support and uses, not remove a stat and need to rebalance every PC in game. ;)

I'm actually sort of tempted to make some gambling crafts/progs that call on it.


Mmm, I've had some luck-based characters in Fallout New Vegas that cleaned out all of the casinos. What could go wrong?
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Re: Presence

Postby tehkory » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:47 pm

Frigga wrote:It seems the smarter thing here is to add more support and uses, not remove a stat and need to rebalance every PC in game. ;)

I'm actually sort of tempted to make some gambling crafts/progs that call on it.

My only issue with presence being fully integrated is that it isn't terribly lore-friendly. I can't think of a single Tolkien character that had 'high presence' without being exceptional in almost every other way.
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Re: Presence

Postby krelm » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:53 pm

tehkory wrote:
Frigga wrote:It seems the smarter thing here is to add more support and uses, not remove a stat and need to rebalance every PC in game. ;)

I'm actually sort of tempted to make some gambling crafts/progs that call on it.

My only issue with presence being fully integrated is that it isn't terribly lore-friendly. I can't think of a single Tolkien character that had 'high presence' without being exceptional in almost every other way.


Further, why spend way more work adding crap to make something worthless not worthless when you can spend way less work just taking it out entirely? Also, we're talking about an entire stat here. Who's going to roll up a PC with a high presence stat just for a handful of gambling crafts when they can roll up a PC with high dex/int for all the other crafts IG.

As for rebalancing PCs...don't. You all didn't rebalance PCs when you changed the starting skill pool. Why do it now?
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Re: Presence

Postby Matt » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:57 pm

Yea. Just set it static at 10 and call it a day.
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Re: Presence

Postby Holmes » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:11 pm

Matt wrote:Yea. Just set it static at 10 and call it a day.


This was how it operated in the engine on PRPI and ARPI. It's a fairly simple fix, though it would screw old pcs over if it was higher than that.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I have submitted a code fix that would make it visible, at the very least.
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Re: Presence

Postby Hawkwind » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:27 pm

tehkory wrote:
Frigga wrote:It seems the smarter thing here is to add more support and uses, not remove a stat and need to rebalance every PC in game. ;)

I'm actually sort of tempted to make some gambling crafts/progs that call on it.

My only issue with presence being fully integrated is that it isn't terribly lore-friendly. I can't think of a single Tolkien character that had 'high presence' without being exceptional in almost every other way.


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Re: Presence

Postby tehkory » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:48 pm

Hawkwind wrote:Samwise Gamgee.

Code: Select all
Presence will represent the strength of someone's innate draw as a factor of their personality, their aptitude for leading and influencing, and the base ability of all creatures to be drawn and influenced by music, tale, and an inspirational spirit. Specifically, Presence plays a crucial role in skills such as music, haggle, and handling skills, and directly impacts the success of commands like RETREAT and RESCUE.

Presence was minimal for dear old Sam. He was no leader, no great Captain of Men, no towering beauty nor a passionate speaker. Samwise was simple, in all but one respect.
Code: Select all
Willpower is a key skill in determining how far you will push yourself in your pursuits. It is a key factor in determining how high any individual skill can become. Willpower is an important skill both statistically and roleplay wise, seeing as it affects a core part of your player's personality and is taken into account for a wide variety of skills.

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Re: Presence

Postby likui » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:54 pm

While Boromir is probably a decent example of higher emphasis on presence, less on Willpower.
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Re: Presence

Postby radioactivejesus » Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:39 pm

Frigga wrote:It seems the smarter thing here is to add more support and uses, not remove a stat and need to rebalance every PC in game. ;)

I'm actually sort of tempted to make some gambling crafts/progs that call on it.

to me, gambling doesn't really seem to be what presence is about at all. It's a matter of your pc's force of character, his skills in intimidation, leadership and personality. Also, nobody would care about a stat that was almost solely used for gambling.
Some of my thoughts for presence that would make it relevent;
give a bonus to trauma damage dealt when a hit is landed. Tangling with the witch-king of angmar would be far more draining on your resolve and will to fight than you would if you were just fighting some buff orc. You could let presence be to willpower what strength is to constitution.

I think that there also does need to be a lot of rewards for pc's in a group following a leader with high presence. Maybe something like modifying their willpower by 1 point for every level in presence above average the leader has
poor presence= -1 wil to all, average presence=0, good presence=+1 wil, great presence=+2 wil and peak=+3.
I think with willpower lessening the debuffs received from fighting while wounded, it does a good job to represent a leader motivating his soldiers, whereas a group with a poor leader is more likely to be routed if they start losing
Last edited by radioactivejesus on Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Presence

Postby Matt » Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:46 pm

Well... that's actually a pretty good suggestion.
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Re: Presence

Postby krelm » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:06 am

It'd also take heaps more coding work then simply reverting the stat to capping out at 10, however.
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Re: Presence

Postby Songweaver » Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:36 am

IMO, like aura and "power" before it, presence is too esoteric of a concept to be a quantified statistic. I just don't think it's necessary, beyond the inherent balance issues it creates. There are already enough "tough choices" when putting together a build without needing to seriously consider something like presence.
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Re: Presence

Postby radioactivejesus » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:57 am

krelm wrote:It'd also take heaps more coding work then simply reverting the stat to capping out at 10, however.

yeah. I'd rather see presence made into a real stat than removed. But I'd also rather see presence removed than kept in it's current state with only a few un-useful skills for it to determine the cap of and the occasional novelty craft.
Staff probably have lots of other things to focus on than improving presence
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Re: Presence

Postby Patty » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:33 am

Glad I set my prescence to most important.
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Re: Presence

Postby krelm » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:24 am

Patty wrote:Glad I set my prescence to most important.


Woops.
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Re: Presence

Postby Patty » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:19 am

krelm wrote:
Patty wrote:Glad I set my prescence to most important.


Woops.


Hoping it will pay off....in some way....at least one time.
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Re: Presence

Postby krelm » Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:43 pm

On the bright side you can brag to everyone about how high your presence stat -probably- is.
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Re: Presence

Postby Hawkwind » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:11 pm

Patty wrote:
krelm wrote:
Patty wrote:Glad I set my prescence to most important.


Woops.


Hoping it will pay off....in some way....at least one time.


Same here.
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Re: Presence

Postby Foxtrot » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:37 am

Presence is in SCORE now. What that means for RP etc will be interesting. Can you roll vs someone else's stat?
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Re: Presence

Postby radioactivejesus » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:48 am

the upgrade command still needs to be modified so that presence is up/downgradable
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Re: Presence

Postby krelm » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:32 am

It's still totally worthless. Now you can just see exactly how many stat points you have wasted on it.
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