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Warfare/warcraft

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Warfare/warcraft

Postby Matt » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:24 pm

Just really excited about all this new stuff and wanted to start a thread! Some of my favorite memories of old SOI was with the old fort systems that were used in SOI of old. I remember the first time around, when the forts spawned resources specific to location, one of the biggest PC vs PC battles that's probably ever happened. We(evil side) caught a large group of humans taking over one of our forts and we quickly mustered and had a massive spur of the moment battle with several retreats/reengagements and it was super fun.

I'm curious about the new skill being added though, warcraft. Why is a new skill being added? I figured it'd be a new craftset with crafts in it that use existing skills. (some that are way underutilized). I thought it'd be more of a mix of stonecraft/woodcraft/metalcraft/leathercraft/artistry depending on what the craft was.
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby cfelch » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:28 pm

It sounds like a remake of the old seigecraft/engineering craftset.

As for why its a separate skill... its likely supposed to be an indication of tactical knowledge for the sake of branching crafts that do rely on other skills.

Much like artistry.
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby Brian » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:42 pm

Excited for the possibilities of this as well and hoping that troop deployments and numbers will be factored and relevant. One of the things that disliked the most about the old fort system was how the NPCs essentially became expendables. In the give and take of the fort system of old both sides would routinely have a pretty sizeable number of NPCs killed whenever a fort fell and given that our NPCs are supposed to be relevant people can you imagine what that would do to morale? Imagine if your PC was one of the people posted to the fort, you'd be scared ****less!

I'll reserve any judgements until details are revealed though. I'm cautiously optimistic at this point though and hoping all of these things are considered in the planning!
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby Nimrod » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:23 pm

I'm going with the new skill because there is currently no relevant skill that crosses over to constructing/repairing/operating trebuchets, catapults and other engines of war.

As for npcs that will occupy the strongholds, Brian will be happy to know that I've designed a complete casualty system to go along with this. FYI - A casualty does not mean killed, it means out of action. Defender NPCs will become casualties when they drop to a pre-determined health level, at which point they will try to retreat to the stronghold, and/or more npcs will be deployed to assist him or her.

Once an npc becomes a casualty, they are no longer able to assist in defending the position and clan leaders can either have him transported back to their home base or leave him there. Whether the casualty is pulled back to the home base or left in the stronghold, a pc-healer can aid in getting him back on his feet and back in action. He will eventually heal on his own, but a healer will speed up the process.

So, we won't see the mass slaughter of npcs and the subsequent looting of their corpses. A casualty may die if their wounds are severe enough, but death will be quite rare for our stalwart defenders.

Currently I have four different types of npcs that you'll be able to deploy to your positions. Defenders, Scouts, Gatherers, and Engineers. Each will play a specific role in the stronghold and are able to automatically make repairs and defend, if the stronghold is attacked.

As far as taking their numbers into account during an attack, here is the basic scenario:

Orc Stronghold sits in a Central Mirkwood room. Human stronghold is 2 rooms away. Each has 60 defenders/engineers. Humans command their stronghold to move one room closer to the orc stronghold. (Movement is limited by time - 24 hours per movement). As soon as the human stronghold is re-established they deploy all of their seige engines and begin their attack.

A weapon, such as a trebuchet, requires 5 npc engineers to operate. They are virtually deployed along with the trebuchet. A player then runs crafts to load, aim, and then fire the trebuchet in a specific direction. Based on the state of the trebuchet, the user's aim and a few other factors, when fired the trebuchet may create casualties on the other side or damage the walls.

Defenders will fight back. If they have a catapult inside their position, they will fire back, aiming at your deployed weapons and engineers.

I'm currently allowing pcs to enter an enemy stronghold as soon as the walls are breached, at which time they'll have to fight any remaining npc defenders. As defenders are defeated (not killed) they will be replaced by two more until their numbers are fully depleted and you win the battle. If you retreat out of the position before all defenders are defeated, the npcs will begin repairs and prepare for the next assault.

So, once you enter a stronghold to attack it, you may face 3 to 6 defenders in battle and that number will grow as you defeat them. You may end up facing a dozen npcs fairly quickly if the numbers are there.

One thing I am considering, though have not yet decided on yet, is allowing your npc troops to storm a position. If I go with this option, the defending side will have a great advantage over the attacker and the win/loss ratio would likely be around 60% for the attacker. (i.e. you attack with 10 troops, you take out 6 defenders and lose all 10 of your attackers).
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby Nimrod » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:25 pm

As a fun thought, it is possible for you to complete surround an enemy stronghold on all four sides and, if you have enough players, you can attack him from all four directions at once. :D
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby Bones » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:15 pm

I'm curious what the primary attributes for this new skill will be. Looking forward to playing with it. Looks like it's badassery all around.

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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby ThinkTwice » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:50 pm

Huge kudos and thanks to keeping the crafting side of the house involved in the war effort. :) It's exciting to know that having beast crafters/support staff will have a real impact on the on-goings.
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby Real » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:54 pm

Awesome.

Will it be possible to branch Warcraft or will it be for new PCs only?
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby Nimrod » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:00 pm

Real wrote:Awesome.

Will it be possible to branch Warcraft or will it be for new PCs only?


You will be able to gain the skill naturally in-game. I will likely bump a few of you up a bit just so we can get some testing rolling once I deploy the system.

I would guess I would have a working system around the end of February. I wish I could do nothing but work on this system so I could knock it out, but there's a lot of other things going on in the background with Laketown.
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby Matt » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:55 pm

I think there's plenty of skills that translate over to building a trebuchet. Leatherworking, woodcrafting, metalcraft, and education.

I think doing it this way just creates another under utilized skill/craftset. I mean someones not going to sit around and just make trebuchets all day as their one and only job in game. "Steven, we have a hundred trebuchets stop making a new one everyday!". Or when you get to the point in which we've built a retarded amount of the things the skill becomes kind of useless. Which it will if it's only purpose is building war engines. People want to raise their skills. So why not make a new craftset that uses a bunch of different skills? Make them higher checks so you really have to get someone really good at what they do to do their section of the works.

A job like that is spread out through a group of craftsmen, not just one guy. You also don't learn as a craftsmen just to build trebuchets, you learn the basics of woodworking and work your way up into something like that.

We've already got a ton of skills that aren't worth the picks, why add a skill that someone will have to take for the sacrifice of the sphere?

Build trebuchet-frame
adroit woodcraft

twist leather-trebuchet-cord
adroit leathercraft

forge trebuchet-joints-and-bolts
familiar metalcraft

assemble trebuchet
adroit woodcraft/fam education

Etc etc.
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby radioactivejesus » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:14 pm

Nimrod wrote:I'm going with the new skill because there is currently no relevant skill that crosses over to constructing/repairing/operating trebuchets, catapults and other engines of war.

I'm echoing Matt's thoughts on this. It would make more sense to me if the construction of siege equipment fell upon woodcrafters, metalcrafters and the like. While for siege defenses, it would be great to have stonecraft made relevant and useful, rather than adding a brand new skill to the game.

For the actual operation of siege weaponry, there's no reason it couldn't merely use the aim skill in order to determine accuracy.

Another thing I don't understand is forts being mobile. If it's just a siege-camp with a few hastily constructed barricades and caltrops, sure, but if players go the extra mile to create palisades or stone walls, immobility should probably be the trade-off for huge defensive bonuses.

I'm still extremely pumped for the new warfare code. I've always wanted SOI to have a way to represent a full on war, with territory held and fought over instead of simply sticking to minor skirmishes between pc's. This sounds like it is going to do a good job of delivering that.
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby radioactivejesus » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:18 pm

Matt wrote:assemble trebuchet
adroit woodcraft/fam education

that would be pretty brutal to the 50% of the game world that is not into literacy
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby krelm » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:16 pm

Just throwing this in here, but I have to agree with Matt on this one. Keep in mind the last time I played was 3 or 4 months ago, but there were already heaps of skills that didn't do anything (and one stat, but that's a whine for another thread).

Like, just from looking at chargen, here's a list of skills that did pretty much nothing:

Artistry
Education (it let you read, but it was mostly fluff)
Farming
Gardening
Haggle
Handle
Music
Picklock (no lockpicks)
EDITED to add: medicine

Not to mention the skills that just had a single craftsuite, making them utterly worthless after one PC made all the crap it created (I'm looking at you, stonecraft).

Have these skills been given crafts and made relevant in the last 3 months? Maybe. I wouldn't know. But if you keep adding skills instead of expanding on the stuff you already have, it's just going to exacerbate the problem of skillbloat, which is already becoming a problem. You could totally use the skills that already exist and throw crafts into them to make trebuchets or whatever.

Of course you don't have to listen to me, but I figured I'd throw it out there.
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby cfelch » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:44 pm

More of these skills need to be treated as universal.
Or be given away for free randomly during chargen (like psionics used to be).
Also, on a related note...

In the last beta i recall there being a command to output all known skills, and not just the one with a certain level of proficiency.
Does that command still exist, and if so what is it?
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby Onasaki » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:34 am

Again, I have to echo both Matt, and RJ, as well as Krelm.

However, Artistry has become far more useful in the last few months then it was four months ago. And I still think it can be expanded on.

What I see here, is what we're creating here, is essentially a Evony type scenario, with deeper RP, and plot, and such. But, with the strongholds as they are, with virtual troops, and rushing other strongholds and the like...

It will turn into a basic FTP RTS game, that pop up, you know, like Tribes, Evony, Empires, whatever. And that kind of kills what SOI should be.

While I love the idea of coded warcraft, I have to say that adding more skills, and ignoring ones we already have, is not a good idea as a whole. We should have more crafts, added to existing skills.

We should have skills become more and more important, so that the diversity of characters can reach the same level it was in the original SOI.

We have too many metalworkers, leathercrafters, armorsmiths, and essentially not enough to do with them. We have skills like Stonecraft, which was actually pretty awesome in SOI 1.0 from what I understand, building statues, and thrones, and other such things.

We should build upon things. Stonecraft needs an overhaul. Metalcraft needs to be more then just a tool-making armor benefactor.

Leathercraft needs to be more then pouches, satchels, and hauberks.

There's a lot of effort from all kinds of crafters to support a war effort. It shouldn't be some guy, who does a craft to move some dudes this way, or that way.

It has to be more tactical, it has to have enough back up and support, otherwise, it'll turn into "Spam breach wall craft" "spam attack stronghold craft"

And essentially just become about as boring as normal PVP combat. Those with the highest level siegecrafters will always win, instead of those with the highest amount of resources.
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby Nimrod » Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:45 pm

One of the main reasons I decided to go with the Warcraft skill here is to allow Leathercrafters to be Leathercrafters and Warriors to be Warriors and also to let a long-lived soldier type learn a new craftset once they are out of the military, if they survive.

The Warcraft skill is meant to be very specialized. Folks that know how to assemble a trebuchet, load it and fire it with skill are few and far between, thus the Warcraft skill.

Creating something like a trebuchet will require other skills as well, such as woodworking, leatherworking and metalworking too. It's not a stand-alone skill that will allow you to do everything. It's going to be a trade off for soldiers though. If you want to be a good soldier you'll concentrate on the Warcraft crafts such as assembling the trebuchet, reinforcing your stronghold and using your weapons. A soldier, in theory, could be a woodworker too, and create the wood parts needed for the trebuchet, but it's going to be better for them to allow a non-military person to do that for them.

The same is true with the leatherworking and metalworking requirements.

No ONE person will be able to gather all the raw resources, process them into the correct parts and assemble them into a trebuchet. It's going to be a group effort.

The military may contract with a Laketown Master to provide them with turnbuckles or stanchions that they need to make war. If they try to build these things themselves, they'll quickly fall behind on the Warcraft side of things.
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby Matt » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:29 pm

Yea that makes sense. In this setting really every soldier should have a basic understanding of woodcrafting with the more experienced being 'trained' on the ways of using that knowledge for war.
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby radioactivejesus » Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:19 am

Nimrod wrote:The military may contract with a Laketown Master to provide them with turnbuckles or stanchions that they need to make war. If they try to build these things themselves, they'll quickly fall behind on the Warcraft side of things.

and the orcs will get an equivalent from the neighboring merchant tribe?
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby Bones » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:58 pm

My two cents, is that this is Alpha.

Warcraft will be a fantastic thing for soldiers, who more often than not pick up skills just so they have stuff to -do- in their downtime. We all remember the old Battalions. My Journeyman Siege guy didn't start out that way. He had the role pushed on him once he learned literacy, and woodcrafting.
Now there's a skill that gives more for a soldier to do than 'kill so and so', emote kills so and so, and occasionally 'aim soandso head'.

I have absolutely zero idea what is coming down the pipe, but if I know staff, they are doing things in waves. Stonecraft? Probably going to get a very hefty boost in the future, when Laketown opens up. Mines, quarries and the like, which there aren't any of in this area, will most likely become available.

Artistry is super useful, and has been in determining the quality of craft rolls. Many did not develop it, as they thought it was not useful except for pretty decorations. While it wasn't over publicized, this -was- in fact known near the beginning, to be used for this sort of thing.

Another issue I would have to say, is that the Staff likely -did- devote resources to expanding crafts. But notable PCs who were in positions to use these crafts either died, became slowly inactive, or didn't make use of them like they should have, for one reason or another. It could be that the consensus was, "Let's put a pin in this and come back to it."

Again. The main theme here should be, this is Alpha. Meneldor, our most bad-assed Craft Lord/Lady(Who can tell with eagles?) will do what needs to be done. And with an awesome spare coder in Grommit, Nimrod can focus on additional things.
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby AdamBlue » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:48 am

Oh crap, I just realized stonecrafters are going to be super valuable. They're going to be the ones in charge of filling our catapults with massive Round shot and Scattershot (Big boulders or an assortment of small rocks)
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby Grommit » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:37 am

AdamBlue wrote:Oh crap, I just realized stonecrafters are going to be super valuable. They're going to be the ones in charge of filling our catapults with massive Round shot and Scattershot (Big boulders or an assortment of small rocks)


Basically we're going to have lumber mills where you can upgrade your peons from delivering 100 units of lumber per standard chopping cycle to 125 units, plus research upgrade to your Elven Archers' bows n stuff,
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby Mavinero » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:17 pm

This gets me stoked. Bring it on!
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby radioactivejesus » Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Grommit wrote:
AdamBlue wrote:Oh crap, I just realized stonecrafters are going to be super valuable. They're going to be the ones in charge of filling our catapults with massive Round shot and Scattershot (Big boulders or an assortment of small rocks)


Basically we're going to have lumber mills where you can upgrade your peons from delivering 100 units of lumber per standard chopping cycle to 125 units, plus research upgrade to your Elven Archers' bows n stuff,

zug zug, work work.
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby Nimrod » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:28 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:and the orcs will get an equivalent from the neighboring merchant tribe?

Not quite a neighboring tribe, but yet, they will gain support as well. Orcs have gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to any new stuff like this in-game. Unfortunately that's because we don't want orcs to get so far ahead of humans that they'll never be able to catch up.
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Re: Warfare/warcraft

Postby Hawkwind » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:47 pm

Nimrod wrote:
radioactivejesus wrote:and the orcs will get an equivalent from the neighboring merchant tribe?

Not quite a neighboring tribe, but yet, they will gain support as well. Orcs have gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to any new stuff like this in-game. Unfortunately that's because we don't want orcs to get so far ahead of humans that they'll never be able to catch up.


Hilariously this is a lot like Warcraft as well. DOUBLE REFERENCE, HORDE IS BEST, ALLIANCE ARE BALLS.
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