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Pfile Notes

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Is it a good idea to allow you to see the notes staff place on your characters?

Yes
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73%
No
8
18%
No Opinion
4
9%
 
Total votes : 45

Re: Pfile Notes

Postby krelm » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:55 am

The proposal is, as Real and Nimrod even said, players being able to see what a staffer wrote on their file, not, as apparently everyone thinks, the staff posting a player's file for them, their parents, their fellow players, God, and everyone else to see.

It's meant to offer some transparency to the whole staffing process. You want to know why you didn't get an RPP and all your friends did? Ask for a lot of your pfiles. Turns out the staff caught you twink-sneaking past NPCs. Make a mental note to not do that anymore.

As far as my own opinion goes?

First, whenever I staffed (briefly on SoI, back in the day, and, again briefly, on Atonement) I would tell people their pnotes. I'd tell them if I made a pnote, and what it read, and why I wrote it. I also did this without telling other staffers I did it, but whatever, I'm a rebel.

Second, Arm does it, and it works alright for them.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby WorkerDrone » Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:01 am

The proposal is, as Real and Nimrod even said, players being able to see what a staffer wrote on their file, not, as apparently everyone thinks, the staff posting a player's file for them, their parents, their fellow players, God, and everyone else to see.


Let's be fair here, bro. God saw what you did last night, and he wasn't happy about it.

I'm fairly sure he saw you twink-fleeing from boars, too.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby krelm » Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:05 am

Maybe that's why I didn't get my next RPP.

SHOW ME MY PNOTES, GOD
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby Japheth » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:08 am

True story. When I first joined the SOI staff, almost the first thing I did was read my own account notes. I had my share of twinky stuff I'd done when I thought nobody was watching and amazing RP moments that I had hoped had been noticed. I was interested to see what staff thought of me.

I actually had a single account note, from Traithe. The actual text has been lost to time, but a very close paraphrasing was as follows:

"He has played a goblin for over a year, and doesn't have a single skill at Adroit. Probably not a twink. Good for his first RPP".

On point though - I think the proposal is a good idea. People cannot improve if they don't know where they are going wrong.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby radioactivejesus » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:53 pm

WorkerDrone wrote:
The proposal is, as Real and Nimrod even said, players being able to see what a staffer wrote on their file, not, as apparently everyone thinks, the staff posting a player's file for them, their parents, their fellow players, God, and everyone else to see.


Let's be fair here, bro. God saw what you did last night, and he wasn't happy about it.

I'm fairly sure he saw you twink-fleeing from boars, too.

how does one even manage to twink-flee from npcs? I figure the rules are out the window when you're being attacked by homing wildlife robots.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby krelm » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:10 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:
WorkerDrone wrote:
The proposal is, as Real and Nimrod even said, players being able to see what a staffer wrote on their file, not, as apparently everyone thinks, the staff posting a player's file for them, their parents, their fellow players, God, and everyone else to see.


Let's be fair here, bro. God saw what you did last night, and he wasn't happy about it.

I'm fairly sure he saw you twink-fleeing from boars, too.

how does one even manage to twink-flee from npcs? I figure the rules are out the window when you're being attacked by homing wildlife robots.


The non-aggro boars in the woods don't chase. It used to be common practice to twink up sneak/hide on them with ambushing.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby radioactivejesus » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:41 pm

krelm wrote:The non-aggro boars in the woods don't chase. It used to be common practice to twink up sneak/hide on them with ambushing.

oh wow. Guess staff making boars aggro fixed that twinkery pretty quickly
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby Brian » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:34 pm

With aggro NPCs I figure you pretty much utilize any means at your disposal. Same thing with aggro PCs for that matter. If PCs come at me without emotes, lead up, any posing about position in the room and just go for the kill and straight to code you're more or less forced to respond in kind.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby tehkory » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:46 pm

WorkerDrone wrote:The non-aggro boars in the woods don't chase. It used to be common practice to twink up sneak/hide on them with ambushing.

Unpopular Opinion Kory:
I don't think the tactic of 'hide, stab, flee, hide, stab, flee,' would actually be 'twinking,' as long as the mob was still mobile/capable of aggression. I don't think anybody that's human is going to try and get into a knock-down drag-out fight with any sort of animal(see: any sane human), and given the style of hunting this game tends towards, it's honestly more realistic to do that.

Is it great for game balance? Wellll, probably not. I don't think it was bad that it got removed. But I wouldn't call it twinking to 'hunt' a boar sow in that fashion, either.

More on-topic:
God ys plz transparency. I've always had a hard-on for transparency, and I always will. It's not just better for the players, it's better for the Admins.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby Real » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:46 pm

Brian,

That's when you set run, engage Master Hide and begin the archery gank. All bets are off when someone charges and types kill. You gotta lay down the hammer of justice. What makes me laugh is when people who just run in and attack complain about skirmishing archer-types. Please.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby radioactivejesus » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:00 pm

Real wrote:Brian,

That's when you set run, engage Master Hide and begin the archery gank. All bets are off when someone charges and types kill. You gotta lay down the hammer of justice. What makes me laugh is when people who just run in and attack complain about skirmishing archer-types. Please.

the catch 22 of the situation is that the only way to not get your entire group slaughtered by skirmishing archer-types is to run in and go straight to code once arrows start flying at you, due to the way bleed damage and arrows work.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby Real » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:07 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:
Real wrote:Brian,

That's when you set run, engage Master Hide and begin the archery gank. All bets are off when someone charges and types kill. You gotta lay down the hammer of justice. What makes me laugh is when people who just run in and attack complain about skirmishing archer-types. Please.

the catch 22 of the situation is that the only way to not get your entire group slaughtered by skirmishing archer-types is to run in and go straight to code once arrows start flying at you, due to the way bleed damage and arrows work.

100% agree, but we don't have ROE (oh god I said it) so you just have to adapt on both sides to what's most effective really. I try to emote with people in most PVP situations but after you get burned your patience runs thin for that bs for the next little while.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby Celairel » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:55 pm

I know my opinion doesn't hold much sway anymore, but I'm speaking from my brief stint as an admin on the last game: I don't think admin transparency is going to make any real kind of difference one way or the other. The people who are going to cause problems are still going to cause problems, the people who cry twinking and cheating and favortizing all the time are going to continue to do that regardless. Allowing players to see their own notes for the sake of improving their game play strikes me as another way to eradicate player/admin contact. If a player can be steered in a better direction regarding the way they play/interact/pose/whatever, pull that person aside and have an actual conversation with them that involves feedback and real-time reactions. Notes should be a place where other admin can look and get a feel for what kind of player that person is, and I don't really see why anyone but staff should be able to see that. If someone gets documented at their real life job, they're shown the paperwork during a face-to-face conversation and then it gets stored away in a file that the employee doesn't have access to, because that's how management works.

Just my rambly two-cents.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby Real » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:31 pm

Has any verdict been reached on this by staff?

My curiosity grows for these pfile notes errday.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby cfelch » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:45 pm

Celairel wrote:Notes should be a place where other admin can look and get a feel for what kind of player that person is


That is a fallacy!
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby Celairel » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:14 am

cfelch wrote:
Celairel wrote:Notes should be a place where other admin can look and get a feel for what kind of player that person is


That is a fallacy!


It's not, really, because that could apply to good things as well as bad things. The whole point of pfile notes is to give a player some kind of history in terms of what they've done for (or against) the game. I don't mean for admin to leave notes like "this guy is a complete liar, don't believe anything he says, he's been lying for years about everything right down to how OLD he is!" because obviously that would bias someone dealing with them in a different situation. There needs to be some kind of direction though otherwise whenever there's an admin turnover no one would have any idea what was going on. If an admin is any kind of decent or genuine about their job, which hopefully they would be considering this is just a game and not really a big deal, then they would go into any new situation with a player without bias but also with their eyes open. People on this game DO cheat and lie and take advantage, let's not be naïve here. That shouldn't color every admin/player interaction, but if there's a pattern with a certain player then it should be noted.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby tehkory » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:37 am

Celairel wrote:
cfelch wrote:
Celairel wrote:Notes should be a place where other admin can look and get a feel for what kind of player that person is


That is a fallacy!


It's not, really, because that could apply to good things as well as bad things. The whole point of pfile notes is to give a player some kind of history in terms of what they've done for (or against) the game. I don't mean for admin to leave notes like "this guy is a complete liar, don't believe anything he says, he's been lying for years about everything right down to how OLD he is!" because obviously that would bias someone dealing with them in a different situation. There needs to be some kind of direction though otherwise whenever there's an admin turnover no one would have any idea what was going on. If an admin is any kind of decent or genuine about their job, which hopefully they would be considering this is just a game and not really a big deal, then they would go into any new situation with a player without bias but also with their eyes open. People on this game DO cheat and lie and take advantage, let's not be naïve here. That shouldn't color every admin/player interaction, but if there's a pattern with a certain player then it should be noted.

In the few times I've made the mistake of thinking I could do anything like Adminning in any way, I've noticed there's generally forum topics about players in general(and I don't mean this in a bad way). Who to watch out for, or egregious twinking, RPP reviews, what-have-you.

Pfile notes could be open to players, all the while keeping information you don't want open to players on the forums instead. Cfelch is right, You're using fallacies. Plural. Now you've made a false dichotomy, where either Admins can keep everything utterly unclear, or else they put *everything* in the open.

Transparency, I say again, is a beautiful thing. Everytime I've seen it implemented properly, it's only improved the MUD for the majority of players. Transparency with who Admins are...well, a good portion of the pbase knows eachother. It's a small world in RPIs, and I can tell you I picked out one fresh Admin after reading one of his posts. He can't help that, and neither can I. Back on Parallel, people didn't have to: Holmes and Crayon didn't make any attempt at hiding who they were, and neither did Chazz. When it came to roles, SoI used to follow the transparency of Atonement/Parallel, but now it doesn't. It only helps a portion of players(those that tend to be favored, yes) when roles become special-application as opposed to standardized. I couldn't tell you how an Elf or Dunadan or Dwarf gets in game, or what boosts they get, or what gear they get, or what requirements there are. And that *doesn't* help new players, and it *doesn't* help the majority.

With pfiles, it's the same way. Let people see why they get what they get, and why they don't. If monthly RPP reviews go out, I'd say ADD THEM TO THE PFILES. And let people see them.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby WorkerDrone » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:02 am

Worthwhile mention: The level of transparency, at least in regards to this being implemented or not (and it seems even at this level it isn't wanted by a good portion of people) is just on a 1 on 1 basis, with admins being able to view all notes on all players and players just being able to view the notes relevant to themselves.

The only reason I can think of, personally, to support even that level of transparency, and I sort of loathe to support it because it sort of implies a commitment of energy to engage with players more than absolutely necessary, on an OOC level, and not in a voluntary way--energy that could be more productively directed, is to forgo the need to take players aside and inform them every time they're spotted performing some sketchy behavior, or have performed better than expected in some aspect of their roleplay, and in what way.

In my mind, one-on-one, real-time engagement is awesome, when the two primary concerns an admin has is both creative writing and public relations. When every admin is contributing to the development of an incomplete game, which most currently working on it are at the moment, it is a hindrance. So in that respect, this level of transparency is helpful, albeit lazy. Lazy can be good, but it can also be bad.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby Celairel » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:24 am

tehkory wrote:Transparency, I say again, is a beautiful thing. Everytime I've seen it implemented properly, it's only improved the MUD for the majority of players.


I guess I haven't seen it properly implemented then, and of course I'm old and bitter and less inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt having been an admin on this game and others and seen what the "norm" of player behavior tends to be.

WorkerDrone wrote:In my mind, one-on-one, real-time engagement is awesome, when the two primary concerns an admin has is both creative writing and public relations.


That was part of my point in my original post, but I think it got lost in my digression. Having pfile notes available to the player seems like it would discourage an admin actually engaging in a dialogue with a player instead of just slapping a note up for future perusal. Although I can see the other side of that coin too, in that it would free up time and energy to be put towards other things like world-building.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby WorkerDrone » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:30 am

Celairel wrote:That was part of my point in my original post, but I think it got lost in my digression. Having pfile notes available to the player seems like it would discourage an admin actually engaging in a dialogue with a player instead of just slapping a note up for future perusal. Although I can see the other side of that coin too, in that it would free up time and energy to be put towards other things like world-building.


As a merely provisional, temporary and perhaps even ephemeral measure, it performs adequately, at least in theory. Right now, from my experience, staff has been burned and spurned when attempting to devote a significant amount of their energy towards engaging with the playerbase. It has consumed and spat out fresh admins in short order.

This is a band-aid to a greater endemic problem within the game, or perhaps more accurately the community. And not even a band-aid to the problem itself, but rather a band-aid to a problem tangentially related to it.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby Nimrod » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:31 pm

We are pulling the trigger on this. Grommit has been given the go ahead and I expect it will be available in the coming weeks.

Warning: Some of you do have some negative comments from me that list your twinkish behaviors. We WILL NOT be entertaining any petitions to have these pfiles removed or modified. This is for your information only.

And just to make it clear. You'll only be able to read your own pfiles, they will not be made public.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby LadyMizra » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:08 pm

Can we read pfiles for old chars?
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby tehkory » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:20 pm

LadyMizra wrote:Can we read pfiles for old chars?

Pfiles are tied to accounts, not PCs.
ETA:
Otherwise I guess they'd be Cfiles.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby Frigga » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:37 pm

People will not be able to read pfiles on PCs before the Laketown incarnation of SOI, if that's the question.
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Re: Pfile Notes

Postby Grommit » Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:04 am

For bribes I will mine my backup of Old SOI for your pfile notes.
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