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PVP: how is it these days?

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PVP: how is it these days?

Postby tehkory » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:17 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:
Real wrote:Brian,

That's when you set run, engage Master Hide and begin the archery gank. All bets are off when someone charges and types kill. You gotta lay down the hammer of justice. What makes me laugh is when people who just run in and attack complain about skirmishing archer-types. Please.

the catch 22 of the situation is that the only way to not get your entire group slaughtered by skirmishing archer-types is to run in and go straight to code once arrows start flying at you, due to the way bleed damage and arrows work.

My experience with the PvP in game has been this:
40000 person first-time PVP(it probably involved like twenty-five people, actually). Everybody obeyed the rules, one side lost, one side didn't, and only one person in the whole mess was wronged in any way(and then, only slightly). Half of us nearly died and got released, to fight again.
Four-versus-four, with me at one point retreating across 3-4 rooms from the enemy, all of us emoting the entire way.
Lead out ten-man group. 'collect' corpse, except I forget to type 'get corpse.' Return immediately sans group, to find ten-man orc gang squad completely hidden around looted/beheaded corpse. Explain the situation, they let me go given it was an OOC mistake.
Get shot at through the gates, though no orc could ever know that they were shooting through a peep-hole by the description.

To the point: All-in-all, the orcs in this game have been a hell of an adversary, and sensible and fair. I've not seen any of the 'bad' PVP in my entire time here. Is the 'bad PVP', the straight-to-code cluster :nom: , terribly prevalent?
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Real » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:44 pm

I've had some really great PVP experiences, some of which were just standoffs where we emoted and postured and stomped around demanding answers and then (sometimes by divine intervention, haha, those involved know what I'm talking about) escape/get let go/surrender.

I've had a 1v1 where we bantered, fought, and then one surrendered and went peacefully with the other, all the way to the opposite sphere while RPing and without code bs.

But then you get the lovely gankers who hide outside Vadok Mal or the room two north of Utterby, just trying to get a head to add to their collection and destroy some poor character with an ambush. Which...you know...Is kind of an unpleasant practice to get into, but people do it so you have to keep your eyes open.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby AdamBlue » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:09 pm

I feel like a silly daisy [language edited by Nimrod, keep the forums PG please.] because I tried to -hit- someone out of an ambush when they were out the gate on the way to go kill tarks, they walked right into us.
I accidently cut him in half in the second round in combat. RIP newbie, I feel bad for doing that. I was hiding and I panicked because I didn't want him to just walk past. I was gonna kidnap him. ;_;
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Onasaki » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:59 pm

In my experiences, PVP goes like this.

Group of guys go out to hunt/bog run. Other group waits in ambush. Shoots arrows at the first group. First group finds second group. Second group twink-runs, and shoots, while First Group tries to be nice and give some RP.

So, outright ganking people, while not a good practice, happens MORE often then not. Because everyone's afraid the other side's going to run, or gank them.

It's not fun.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Real » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:07 am

But considering the amount of headless corpses you always find, although they have lovely omotes, it tends to make me just want to shoot any possible PVP threats that I see. Conflict is great, oppressing the other sphere and destroying anyone who goes outside is not much to my taste. There's nothing sporting about 6v1's and 4v1's where you kill the character and leave them for others to find.

This is like every day now.

I dunno if I can :l enough to communicate how :l this is.
Spawn-camping is frowned upon in FPS, in most anything involving conflict, I dunno why people think it's okay to do on this roleplaying game that we're all in to enjoy. This kind of stuff really gets me going.

seriously, wtf
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Patty » Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:50 am

Last night we encountered two seperate pc's on patrol. The first was hidden, doing a craft and spotted us. They became visible for a split second, set sprint, and fled to never be seen again.

The second was not hidden and we engaged in melee upon meeting them. They did not seem happy (and I do not blame them).

The problem is, you cannot determine who is going to roleplay and who is just going to spam and save their life potentially. As unsatisfying as it is to have to go to code, it is also unsatisfying to look around for an hour, find someone, and they take off immediately.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Songweaver » Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:53 am

In theory, the advent of 'warcraft' should help with this. Part of the problem for PVP is the lack of concrete goals.

My goal, for Bjarndyr, was to ultimately invade Vadok Mal and drive the orcs out of Mirkwood. It was entirely unrealistic. Likewise, the orcs should no doubt want to burn Utterby to the ground, and this is also entirely unrealistic. That's the sort of goal that would put an end to ALPHA.

But, with the addition of meaningful resources controlled by fortified structures that can be fought over and won, PVP will skew a little away from the skirmishes and ambushes it has been. I don't really have a problem with the skirmishes and ambushes, as it's pretty realistic. But more concrete goals will help the game take a step towards more meaningful PVP, for sure.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Matt » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:13 am

What Patty said. It's also policy to take prisoners unless it's impossible.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Brian » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:33 am

I think the problem right now is that everyone is saying "Well, we can't trust those humans/orcs to play with us in a way that is meaningful and entertaining, so we have to take things to code immediately because they might do the same thing." If everyone plays with this attitude the situation will never improve.

It takes special players to say "Well, this player might sprint run away from us but I'm going to try and engage in meaningful roleplay anyway." You're going to get burned with this approach. There are going to be players that sprint run away from you. It's then that those special players really shine when they can say "Well, I got burned, but I'm going to continue to try and engage with people and not just swarm them." That's how trust gets built between the factions.

Part of the question is also to ask yourself what your goals are in hunting for players of the opposing sphere to engage with. If your goal is to create adversarial combat roleplay that is satisfying for both sides, builds tension, and drives theme and plot I'd say that's a very worthy goal. I would say this approach would constitute emoting positions when entering a room, emoting actions, possibly even -communicating- between the two sides now that we all speak Common. Then it might progress to coded combat, and possibly even have breaks where both sides stop fighting to do more emoting and communicating or to roleplay out the combat action in more detail, and then possibly engaging again. It might even lead to one side fleeing combat and retreating.

Then the focus really gets put upon what your intentions were. Say everything in your encounter did play out just as I've described above. I'd say you'd absolutely achieved that goal of creating tension, adversarial roleplay, and driving theme. At this point, if you've achieved that goal, what is the purpose of going after them and killing them? Why not celebrate your victory and let the loser escape to spread his tale, and also to plant a seed for future encounters? And, above all, this builds -trust- between the sides that they don't have to run immediately when seeing the opposite sphere because they might get to have an exciting, tense experience, and live to tell the tale and possibly be able to do it again.

Evaluate your goals and ask yourself honestly if you want to roleplay with the other side and build a story between characters...or if what you actually want to do is kill PCs. And I know what the retort here will be -- "It's in character for my character to kill humans/orcs." Sure it is. However, when you've fought, and you've received wounds, is it that unrealistic for one party, bent on flight, to get away? Even if you're allowing the other party to get away, you certainly don't have to play it that way. You've taken cuts in battle, you're hurt, and the other party is fleeing on the wings of adrenaline and fear of death. You want to revel in the glory of watching your craven foe flee for their life. You want to boast to your companions about your glorious deeds in the moment. There are SO many options of you how can believably and realistically let a player escape and ALL of them will foster future encounters because people begin to realize that we're here to play with one another, not to kill each other.

You can't "win" a MUD. Even if we're in opposite spheres we're here to play with each other. We are against each other, as characters, but we're all here to create story and support roleplay as the players behind these characters. Examine your motivations and ask yourself what is the real value of killing PCs. Is it going to make it more likely that you're going to have future satisfying encounters with the opposite side? I'd say no. Is it going to actually change the world state and drive your side to its ultimate victory? I'd say no.

Then consider this; are you depriving yourself of a character that you could have future encounters with? Yes. Are you eliminating a potential plot between you and another character where you meet each other several times on the field and become bitter, hated rivals? Yes. Are you teaching people that the only way you can RP with the opposite side is if someone dies? Yes. Will this ultimately keep people from RPing with you in an adversarial way if they know they can't "win"? Yes.

PvP can be wonderful, tense, fulfilling, and really add to the atmosphere of the game, but think about what you're actually trying to accomplish and then ask if the methods you're using are going to achieve those goals. Then see if you have it in you to be the player that allows trust to build between the sides, and that can really help drive the infrequent and ultimately unsatisfying encounters that seem to be happening now. You'll meet with failure at first, but see if you can rise above that and not submit to being the lowest common denominator.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Icarus » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:40 am

+1 to this.

One of the big things we look at when giving RPP, is what people do in combat. If you put RP > code, and you get ganked like a mofo, or let yourself die, you bet your ass staff are going to see that and you will likely see some RPP in the near future.

(As a note these opinions are Icarus' alone and do not represent or claim to represent the full staff)
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Frigga » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:00 am

Note: Opinions stated below are not meant to represent imagined or actual staff policy at this time, they are simply my thoughts based on experience as a player and staffer.

Edited to add: Brian probably already said everything needed in a far more fluent way but, I already typed this so feel compelled to post it.

Is an RPI supposed to be primarily about "satisfaction" from PK or the satisfaction from telling a gripping story with your PC via your roleplay and thus experiencing things through their mindset?

In my humble opinion, the satisfaction should come from the story, not the body count. If the hunt, the risk, the reward, the capture doesn't tell a story only the killing does, perhaps it's time to ponder how as a collective community we view combat and PvP.

Over the years I have had people tell me that they felt "cheated out of a PK" as if another PCs death is something they are owed. As if that's all that mattered.

Someone else running shouldn't necessarily mean the automatic response should be death on sight for "satisfaction." Something is probably lost if PvP becomes seen as a way to hand out punishment against another player for poor or questionable RP (or lack of) or choices.

There are many games where one can PK, but fewer where you can build interesting scenes with one's enemy, including having a shared language to speak.

But if as as a community we embrace a "PK for the lols" or PK above all else via "camping" or "ganking" we might be encouraging the very thing we don't want to see as a vicious cycle.

If every encounter with the enemy goes to code and leads to death, people are inherently inclined to avoid RP and save their PC. People will run without RP because of the feeling others won't RP and are only after a coded PK. Which then others take as "they didn't RP, thus I must or am enabled to go straight to code." Which then leads to more running and less RP.

So, the question is is that really want we want? Or are we here for the story?

Me? I want to tell a story, but it's hard to invest in new building, new stories, new PCs if everyone's goal is to kill everyone else without prejudice. If there isn't even the satisfaction of a good story told, it makes it hard to invest, being honest.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Matt » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:12 am

It's really easy for the orc sphere to change it's own RoE, we are legion. If boss PCs player wants to enforce RP>code in all encounters he really could but there's a lot of threat to make that choice to his PC/others. Archery code is a thing and it can become really deadly really fast. So it's a mixture of adapting to the bad apples of either side of the sphere plus how quickly the code can become deadly in the blink of an eye.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Songweaver » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:44 am

I don't think that you should at code PVP vs roleplayed encounters as a black & white issue, with one right way to approach an encounter.

Even if PVP encounters lead to PC deaths, and even if they are mostly code-oriented affairs, that doesn't mean that they don't add anything to the story. A couple examples below.

- Hypothetically, I play a Guardsman. Three of my brothers-in-arms have been killed in orc raids in the past in-game month. Their deaths affect my character and clan, our collaborative story. Additionally, we are on high alert, and go out of our way to roleplay out improved preparation, strategy, training, etc. All of these things can be meaningful. Even if the next PVP encounter has little roleplay during the encounter, the roleplay leading up to the encounter - and the roleplay after the encounter - is meaningful.

- I play an orc. Recently, human scouts have been pushing out towards Vadok Mal, and one of our hunters has gone missing. I set up an ambush for the two human scouts, with two other orcs. They come, and we strike from behind some bushes that we were waiting for them in. We prepare some surprise-attack emotes before they arrive, but we don't send them until after we attack, so that we can get the coded advantage of ambushing them. Outnumbered, 3-to-2 and ambushed, they are quickly overwhelmed and flee. We give chase, catching one, but the other gets away. We aim to just knock the human unconscious, so that we can take them prisoner and roleplay with them more intently (i.e. give them a good death scene), but that character accidentally dies.

All is not lost, though. That other human, who got away, now has to deal with the guilt of having left behind a comrade. Having failed. This event could potentially change the entire course of that character's story, if their player lets it.

---

In short, yes, it would be great if every PVP encounter was the most beautiful roleplay we are capable of. But, archery, ambushing, and the necessities of code need to be a factor too. This is not a MUSH. RPIs have permanent death, and RPIs have specific, coded combat systems. We have to accept the mindset that, in a fast-paced situation, sometimes code must equal roleplay. Some players are able to manage a little bit of both, but it truly has more to do with your combat ability and typing speed than your ability to properly play your character.

But, if we can look at the benefits of PVP in the sense of how it can positively affect the stories, both before and after an encounter, then we can come to accept that it is a boon to roleplay for both spheres.

PVP certainly does a lot to reduce the work load on staff/RPAs, who are typically responsible for creating the combat-oriented conflict for an RPI, and let's not forget how important that is.

Plus, character turnover is important. Really important.

All of this said, it's still better to capture an "enemy" PC than to kill it on the spot. It's still better to take moments, in at least the rare times the opportunities present themselves, to engage in more indepth roleplay before you hack+slash someone else's character. You'd want this for yourself.

Sometimes, though, code has to speak for itself. Walking that line is tricky, and the more forgiving and aware players are of that fact, the more collaborative the community will become in the long run.

Addendum: Fortified structures offer the potential for PVP at a slower pace, with sieges, and admin interaction (or scripted interaction). As I said before, 'warcraft' should help with a lot of folks' concerns. But, let's not try to define players who use the code to their advantage as problematic; the code exists for a reason, and there are safeguards in place to make it harder for characters to die on accident in PVP encounters.
Last edited by Songweaver on Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Brian » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:53 am

Matt wrote:It's really easy for the orc sphere to change it's own RoE, we are legion. If boss PCs player wants to enforce RP>code in all encounters he really could but there's a lot of threat to make that choice to his PC/others. Archery code is a thing and it can become really deadly really fast. So it's a mixture of adapting to the bad apples of either side of the sphere plus how quickly the code can become deadly in the blink of an eye.


It's true, and it really becomes about fostering mutual trust. If I'm that archer and I shoot an arrow I can choose to be satisfied with that and try to make a stealthy get away; I can let myself be caught, or I can try and sneak away and then try to shoot my opponent again, and again. In terms of fostering RP and trust between the spheres, I'd say that last option is absolutely the worst. If you do that opposition players are going to have no patience for you and will come down on you with guns blazing. It takes a lot of responsibility from both sides to be reasonable. If you're that archer and you make that shot and you see that the opposing party isn't coming down on you but are staying put for a moment consider that maybe it's because they're trying to react with emotes and such to the situation of arrows flying in at them and give them the time to do so. If you're going to get away, maybe go a single room and hide again and let them catch you and see if your sneaking skills are good enough to sneak out when they're in the same room as you? I wouldn't say run three rooms, hide, and then fire on them again.

It's these very unbalanced situations that are the hardest to manage I think because a skilled and determined single archer can do a lot of damage if they utilize the code for all its worth. They're also likely very hesitant to allow themselves to be caught in melee because that would most likely turn out very badly for them. These situations are usually a bit better when it's 3 vs 3 because then people feel the odds are about balanced and decide to give it a crack. It takes restraint and consideration from the group leader AND the lone ranger to try and construct a reasonable, realistic, and high quality scene together.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Brian » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:56 am

RE: Songweaver, I agree in some respects, but the idea that code = RP has the potential to quickly devolve into "The code allows it, therefore it's ok!" which encourages shoot, run, hide archery, and run kill, kill, kill group tactics. I'll leave myself open to the possibility that there are players that enjoy those scenarios, but I'm not one of them. I find very little entertaining about the combat code, on its own, without scene, action, and communication preceding it, during it, and ideally afterwards as well. Just my taste and perhaps I would do better in a MUSHy setting.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Songweaver » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:13 pm

Brian wrote:RE: Songweaver, I agree in some respects, but the idea that code = RP has the potential to quickly devolve into "The code allows it, therefore it's ok!" which encourages shoot, run, hide archery, and run kill, kill, kill group tactics. I'll leave myself open to the possibility that there are players that enjoy those scenarios, but I'm not one of them. I find very little entertaining about the combat code, on its own, without scene, action, and communication preceding it, during it, and ideally afterwards as well. Just my taste and perhaps I would do better in a MUSHy setting.


I'm not disagreeing with you in your preference. I'll approach this from another angle.

This conversation has been going on for twenty years. No, really. Twenty years ago, RPIs (at least ARM) were talking about how people should play out PVP encounters. In all of that time, there has never been a consensus. For a very long period of time, SOI had ROE - Rules of Engagement. Not many folks remember ROE kindly, because ROE was clunky, and rarely followed by both sides of an encounter. ROE caused huge flame-wars and out-of-character resentment between players. In short, ROE failed.

PVP encounters aren't as static as I think they're being made out to be in this thread. There are an incredible number of variables. Aggressive wildlife mobs, wanting to apply coded advantage to represent your characters' preparation, what happens when re-enforcements arrive, what happens when some enemies flee and others do not, etc, etc. ROE tried to define how to act in every given situation, and it was just never very realistic.

I think it's okay to encourage folks, in a general way, to try to find moments before/during/after a PVP encounter to engage in some actual non-coded roleplay. But expecting it to happen before, during, AND after is very idealistic, and I don't think incredibly realistic.

Sometimes, it does happen. An awesome, crazy, well-played scene from all sides, with meaningful non-code interaction before, during, and after a coded encounter.

But it will never be the norm. By expecting the above situation all the time, and projecting your expectations onto the rest of the playerbase, I think you stand the chance (not you, personally, Brian) of actually creating more of a dichotomous atmosphere. If I read your well-written post and decide that I should always expect that high quality of scene from PVP encounters too, then I'm much more likely to feel cheated when it doesn't go that way, and to "blame the other side".

Just like there's no roadmap for RPAs to design the perfect plot or RPT, there's no roadmap for how to handle every PVP encounter perfectly, as a player. And I don't think that, beyond obvious and unbelievable abuses, players should be held accountable by staff or other players for PVP encounters that are light on emotes, for that reason.

I hope this better shows what I'm trying to get at.

EDITED TO ADD:

This isn't all to say that ROE couldn't work. But, for ROE to really work, you need the game to be designed around such a concept. Kite tried this, in a really convulted way, and it ended up being pretty terrible. For SOI3 to do this, I think that the following code changes would probably be necessary:

- Aggressive mobs don't wander in and attack PCs that are fighting each other.

- Ambush is removed.

- There is no benefit to attacking first. This means no bonus to being the person who types "hit target", including being the first person to automatically take a swing. You'd need to have some sort of initiative (agi+weapon speed or the like) roll to determine who actually gets that first coded attack.

- You'd probably need to remove, at least, same-room archery. This still wouldn't keep folks from firing, running, hiding, firing again, etc. You might have to ban that kind of play all-together, or add a coded piece that would not let people who just fired a bow to leave the room that they are in for at least 30 seconds.

There are probably other things that would need to change as well. If we want to say that the staff (or player) consensus is that some sort of ROE should be re-established, this time it would really need to be supported by the game design itself.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Brian » Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:48 pm

Well put Songweaver and I agree with a lot of what you have to say there. Unfortunately, through my many years of playing I don't believe that it will always be the way that I hope it will be. I will try (and sometimes fail admittedly) to offer the standards that I would hope to see, and that's the best I can do. If I'm trying to do so and I don't feel that my efforts are being acknowledged, I'll probably run away (if I'm one vs four for instance) and use the code as best I can to protect myself by either hiding, sneaking, etc.

However, if I'm in the position of power (the guy leading the four vs the one say) I'll probably try to exercise some restraint. Certainly when I'm all ready for an exciting, dangerous scene and someone takes off I might be inclined to chase right after them to demand that they give me satisfaction, but I'm not sure if that's the best way to encourage people to get involved with PvP. It will never be safe, nor should it be, but I think it can be perhaps a little bit more forgiving than it has been in the past. I don't think the ultimate rating of success of a PvP interaction is if someone dies or is captured and I hope that isn't the mentality that people are bringing to these encounters. If it is, I would endeavor to try and change people's minds.

Ultimately though if it is permitted by code people will do it, you're right. I can't tell them that they're "wrong" to do so either, but I can (and probably will) try to avoid them if I feel they're only there to punch me full of arrows/ambush me with several people, and kill me, not to play with me.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby cfelch » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:03 pm

Songweaver wrote:We have to accept the mindset that, in a fast-paced situation, sometimes code must equal roleplay.


Why do the situations need t be so fast-paced?
I realize that game time is sped up, mostly so that people can experience day/night and the various seasons in their RP encounters.
That aside, the pace of an RPI seems much slower than on other Muds and games in general.
I thought this was because of the commitment to good RP and attention to detail.

So why is it that when the adrenaline is pumping, and those details matter most, that we have the least amount of time to work with?
I think we need to slow combat down by several factors, under the rational of the 'unending moment' and allow for the quality of RP we expect in every other point of the game.

Sometime I wish we could do a single strike attempt at a time instead of the automated once initiated system we have now.
Like archery in that regard.

But then you start getting into a Roundtime per action type deal, and that might be more of a code change then staff would consider.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Patty » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:08 pm

I've always thought the combat code here was terrible. I enjoy fighting in the arena due to the slower pace which allows you to have very detailed emotes. If you ramped up the damage on those and figured a way to have it work for multiple people, I personally believe it would be superior. That seems a lot harder than just making people roleplay though.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby tehkory » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:18 pm

cfelch wrote:
Songweaver wrote:We have to accept the mindset that, in a fast-paced situation, sometimes code must equal roleplay.


Sometime I wish we could do a single strike attempt at a time instead of the automated once initiated system we have now.
Like archery in that regard.


Kithrater once wondered(or else outright stated) if the problem with the guncode(and therefor, archery code) wasn't that it wasn't automated, and was in-fact 'one-off-. I'm not so sure he wasn't wrong. The more commands we're required to put in, the less time we have to roleplay. That's one of the larger problems with archery code. Hide sneak remove wield load im fire move hide sneak load aim fire move hide sneak ad nauseaum. That said, I wouldn't mind if melee combat were slower, but with higher damage, or archery 'automated' a little more somehow, but...those aren't the code changes Staff are looking at.

SOI's gotten bad about that, honestly. The tools to automate haven't matched the changes that were added(IE: scans/qscans aren't updated), meaning there's multiple directions you have to check/match. Things have changed a lot since Parallel's codebase, and not entirely for the better. Highlight got broken at some point, as well, to the point where we're losing tools that reduce spam/needing to DO MORE just to have basic knowledge of our surroundings, or manage our actions. It might seem a touch off-topic, but it's not, unfortunately. A lot of the problems with 'bad' PVP come from just not having the TIME to emote, with all the other things you have to do to stay alive. And I'm not upset that it's easier to die in this game, I don't mind that. I just wish Admins would fix the commands that we need/understand that when they add a good 6 directions to the game, they might need to update the watch command's functionality, too.

Part of the problem with players not having the time to emote won't change, until the broken/outdated commands get fixed/updated to match the game that's been designed. And I know Staff aren't looking at 'those sorts of code changes,' but maybe updating watch so it covered a wider area, and fixing qscan so it covered the incidental angles, just might allow us a LITTLE more leeway. Maybe.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Songweaver » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:23 pm

I don't think you guys are wrong, necessarily. I think that the best sort of combat system for an RPI would be a turn-based combat system, as opposed to a fully live action combat system. If I were to start from scratch, that's how I would approach it.

But, with this codebase, it's really not an option. I think that the engine might just die for good if you tried to strip out melee combat to replace it with a brand new system. And since this is the system that we have, it's the one we need to consider.

And, too, remember that for every player who would like a more MUSH-like combat system, there is at least one combat-oriented player who likes fast-paced, dangerous combat in addition to their more indepth roleplay. That sort of combat has been indicative of all RPIs, from ARM/Harshlands through Atonement and SOI3.

It's really tough to please everybody.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Real » Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:12 pm

I'm really happy that this resulted in meaningful discussion.

Boy was I pissed last night, but this is nice to see/read.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby Tepes » Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:29 pm

Don't remove ambush. Have the bonus apply once in a group, and only once. Or have a negative based on how many people are in a group.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby shezzarine » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:07 pm

I remember something akin to a turn based system from a MUD someone here was running (I think it was called Songs of Albion?) which required an emoted action before the combat roll went through. The slower pace was offset by generally higher damage each round. Or that's how it was pitched/explained to me, as I never went through it myself, but it sounded alright.

I guess that would fall apart in larger fights, though that's already what I'd consider the biggest problem with the combat as I experienced it in RPIs. The bigger the fight, the worse it'd be, regardless of whether the opponents were PCs or not. When you get that much spam, role play seemed to lose most of its meaning because it's not as though anyone can really read an emote before it scrolls by, much less react appropriately, especially when so much could be codedly at stake.
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Re: PVP: how is it these days?

Postby WorkerDrone » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:32 pm

You know how sometimes, in a Tarantino movie, there's these parts where like, a bunch of people on one side of a conflict all have this plan together, or they're doing some mission or caught up in some business, and then, on the other side of the same coin, the OTHER people are doing the same thing, and they have this plan, like say, to kill all the main characters, and the main characters have a plan to kill all the other guys?

PVP is kind of like that. Bloody as hell and hilarious and awful for everyone involved.
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