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New Races, Balance, and Lore

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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby tehkory » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:27 pm

Brian wrote:Wow, two people posted while I was doing my last post as well!

That said, I'm also definitely much more in the camp of Shezzarine. I love Tolkien, I'm a purist and I want things to be the way that I (and it would seem, Shezzarine at least <3) envision them. I'm fine with an unbalance of power because I want to play in that world where there are beings of extraordinary gifts and talents, a world where magic is real and it isn't all equal. I don't know why someone would want to play a Tolkien themed RPI if they didn't want to play in Tolkien's world as written?

You didn't quit when there were trogs and crowlog-hai, or when Haradrim were vastly overpowered. You didn't quit when Gondor went and turned Evil. You still wanted to play. Like I said, it's a spectrum. There's not exact one point where Brian will play: there is a point where Brian will quit and a point where Kory will quit(more than one, likely, given these spectrums go both ways). This game simply isn't Tolkien's vision(nor was SoI-That-Was). Remember Black Speech?
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby Brian » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:34 pm

WorkerDrone wrote:
This is why, Brian. It's about playability. That's like you, or Shezzarine then saying, "Then I'd rather it just be that orcs/evil races aren't made playable." Sure you would prefer that, but many, including myself would prefer them both being playable and that game balance be respected essentially across the board. What makes your opinion of lore being translated into the game point for point in exacting specifications of "overpowered" more valid than my opinion that it would be a steaming pile of...

You get the point.


It doesn't, unfortunately, and I curse you and your differing opinion ;)

Jokes aside, I have to play with people and I don't (well, I do, but you know) believe that my opinion of how it should be is any more valuable than anyone else's. I want it to be that way but I can accept if it doesn't turn out like that. What will most likely happen is there'll be some kind of middle ground which will make everyone thoroughly displeased, which probably means that it was exactly the right decision.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby Songweaver » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:43 pm

There are a lot of good words written in this thread already, so I'm going to focus on solutions and suggestions, as opposed to argument.

As I stated elsewhere, you have two basic conceptual routes to go with this stuff:

Concept One: As an RPI, is the imperative first and foremost to create the full diversity of characters and races in a manner true to canon, to the point where some races (or roles) will be grossly overpowered against other players? In that case, should PVP no longer be considered a core concept of that game, on the case of fairness?

Concept Two: Or, as an RPI is still a game at its core, with standardized systems, is the imperative first and foremost to make certain that all playable races and characters are relatively balanced, so that any player has the ability to climb to similar levels of functionality as all other players, regardless of RPP?


And then, as I stated even elsewhere in support of my belief that we should be striving for Concept Two in such a way that it does not completely null meaningful lore:

I'm not opposed to special roles getting unique gear that befits their character. I think it adds flavor, and absolutely support it.

I am opposed to special roles getting unique gear of a quality that cannot be crafted, because I know the numbers, and I know how it throws off the fairness and balance of the combat system.

I do support the very rare, unique, magical weapon/item (never armor) introduced via plot. I think that such things are the stuff of legend, and Tolkien's all about stuffs of legend. But, it should be rare, and its statistics and effects should be carefully considered and balanced to ensure that nothing's moving too far away from the imaginary middle of balance. In short, its quality should be craftable, and whatever unique attributes it has shouldn't be game-breaking.

Also, cursed weapons/items are cool, too, in the same way.


I think that we need to consider the following possibilities as fair directions to take the game in as it moves ahead, allowing that neither concept has to be faulty:

Suggestion One: Special Races and Roles can receive unique and specialized gear. However, instead of that gear (particularly ARMOR, as armor is always what destroys combat balance/fairness in this engine) being of higher quality than what a 0RPP character could eventually craft, it's made within the current craftable perimeters. That's not to say that it cannot have advantages. Elven Swords can be scripted to glow when orcs are nearby (I did a lot of things like this in Northlands). Dwarves could craft human-quality gear with reasonable magical effects on them. This is preferable to just going with the easy, higher quality route, because the basic damage/AC balance will still be in place. It's also richer in lore, and can be more specific to Tolkien's world (and more wonderful) than simply going with the easy (and game-breaking) route of loading superior quality gear.

Suggestion Two: Special Races and Roles can receive unique and specialized gear that is of a higher quality than what a 0RPP role could craft. I'm not a huge fan of this route, but if things DO go this route, it's imperative (IMO) that PVP is no longer a central element of the game; in short, the orc/warg sphere would probably need to be entirely isolated from the humans, or (more likely) closed up. The reason for this is simple, and has been proven again and again: PVP will lead to flame-wars and resentment between sects of the playerbase when one side has an advantage over the other that is deemed unfair, no matter how "pure" and lore-driven the reason for their advantage may be.

Suggestion Three: Special Races and Roles can receive unique and specialized gear that is, in function, no better than what a 0RPP role can craft. No magical additions or affects, unlike the first suggestion, here. Instead, simply don't allow for players to play races that would necessitate them breaking this standard. That might mean no elves at all, or no dwarves at all. Those roles would have to be handled by RPAs playing NPCs instead.

Summary: IMO, Suggestion One is the way to go. If you're going to enrich the game with powerful roles/races, go the extra mile to add scripted/coded support that makes them special (without going overboard), but don't load up gear that has a coded quality that's better than something a 0RPP player could buy from their neighborhood crafter.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby Brian » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:58 pm

Songweaver wrote:
Suggestion One: Special Races and Roles can receive unique and specialized gear. However, instead of that gear (particularly ARMOR, as armor is always what destroys combat balance/fairness in this engine) being of higher quality than what a 0RPP character could eventually craft, it's made within the current craftable perimeters. That's not to say that it cannot have advantages. Elven Swords can be scripted to glow when orcs are nearby (I did a lot of things like this in Northlands). Dwarves could craft human-quality gear with reasonable magical effects on them. This is preferable to just going with the easy, higher quality route, because the basic damage/AC balance will still be in place. It's also richer in lore, and can be more specific to Tolkien's world (and more wonderful) than simply going with the easy (and game-breaking) route of loading superior quality gear.


From posts by staff members it sounds like this is the option that they're going with so far for elf gear at least, that it will be in line in terms of AC than stuff that can be crafted, but will have possible boosts to things like sneak and hide. To me, given that we're dealing with Mirkwood Elves who have adapted well to the forest but aren't master craftsmen, this makes perfect sense from a lore perspective.

The only area where I see this being a conflict is with Dwarf armor, particularly their chain armor. With that in mind though I'd definitely be ok with Grommit's suggestion, given that he can balance it to function as intended:

Grommit wrote:Race/BG appropriate gear that might be uncraftable if your race doesn't have craftsmen IG, but would be within limits (e.g. a master dwarf smith might be able to make better chain than a human, but I doubt he could make it more than 20% lighter for the same strength, or more than 20% stronger for the same weight)


I'd be pretty happy with that outcome, where maybe dwarf mail has the same AC but is cunningly designed to weigh less. That would be an advantage, but not on the same scale as a higher AC if I understand correctly?

Curious to hear how your suggestion applies to stat boosts for RPP races? Are stat boosts that large of a deal even? I was taken to believe that even if you have higher stats skill is usually the decider in combat scenarios? Like if a guy with stat boosts in some area fights a guy with 15 points higher offensive and defensive skills are those stat boosts even relevant?
Last edited by Brian on Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby Songweaver » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:11 pm

Re: Brian.

I think that weight bonuses for dwarven gear is a very smart way to go about dealing with the superiority of their armor.

In this engine (much moreso than on the old SOI engine), statistics are much more used in combat. In my experience playing combat characters on this version of SOI, a really good stat build can easily make up for skill differentials against an opponent with similar gear. Bjarndyr had highish level skills, but was able to overcome a number of enemy PCs that probably out-skilled him, and I attribute this (in part) to my understanding of what the statistics do, and a good build for him.

Of course, that means that SOI needs to be careful about statistical bonuses for RPP Races, too. But that's more easily managed, IMO.

I would approach stat boosts in a similar fashion to how I did it on Atonement, probably, because I felt that it was relatively fair without breaking the game. In short, a 1RPP Race would have +1 more total stat point in their pool than a 0RPP Race. A 5RPP Race (the most RPP that the RPP Guidelines that I wrote, and SOI is still currently using, allows for) would have +5 more total stat points in their pool than a 0RPP Race. I would also remove the random stat pool bonus that is currently in effect that is allowing for a variance of up to (I believe) 3 stat points in the pool.

And, of course, RPP Races should have stat weaknesses, as well as strengths. All stats (besides Presence) do important things in this version of the engine.

Additionally, I'd be very stingy about Agility and Strength bonuses to RPP races. Those stats begin to allow for some crazy things when they go above the "Peak" level.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby Hawkwind » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:33 pm

Instead of stat boosts what about a raised skill cap for dorfs and knife-ears? It would remedy a lot of problems while also preventing the grinding of skills mentioned elsewhere? The flip side would be humans have lower skills though.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby radioactivejesus » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:38 pm

Hawkwind wrote:Instead of stat boosts what about a raised skill cap for dorfs and knife-ears? It would remedy a lot of problems while also preventing the grinding of skills mentioned elsewhere? The flip side would be humans have lower skills though.

problem is that skill caps are determined by your stats. Pretty sure it's hardcoded in that way
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby krelm » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:41 pm

A question, then, to Grommit: If you sincerely feel that a goodguy PC who spent as much RPP on a race/role as a badguy PC should be able to defeat the badguy handily, why then even allow badguys as a playable race? Why not go the LTOB route and have everyone just play goodguys, with orcs and whatever solely existing through admin animation? It's the only way you could possibly have the race differential be "believable" lore-wise, without pissing exactly half of the playerbase off. Or, as someone mentioned (Kory? Songweaver?) you could just close the spheres off to each other entirely, and not have PvP be a central focus of the game, but that's boring.

Of course, I'm not suggesting any of the above, it was a hypothetical.

As far as solutions go, I believe that SW has the right of it, though I would even be okay with dwarf-made armor having more durability than regular armor. It would provide the same AC as other craftable armor (everything would provide the same AC*) but last longer, generally. And also his opinions on stats and skills were pretty good, too.


*Just a clarification here, NO SINGLE PIECE OF ARMOR SHOULD PROVIDE MORE AC THAN ANY PIECE OF ARMOR THAT CAN BE CRAFTED. For any reason, ever. If the best piece of armor that can be crafted has 6 AC, then any (not every) piece of armor than a PC can conceivably get should have, maximum, 6 AC.

Do I suspect people getting armor that gives them like 10000000 AC, willy-nilly? No. But, and no offense to Frigga, it's happened at least once recently. Staff giving out armor that's way better than any other armor is the type of shit I cannot tolerate.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby radioactivejesus » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:45 pm

[quote="krelm"][/quote]
yea, I agree with that first point. If anyone wants a dwarf to be capable of beating 5 uruk-hai, then dwarves would need to cost 8+ rpp and uruk-hai only 1. It would be extremely unfair for them both to cost 3 or 4, while being grossly different in power. Same goes for any race, really. Each race in the same rpp level needs to be equally well off in abilities and equipment. Even though their abilities and gear will lie in different areas of expertise.

Also agree with that last point... That elf-armour was a really massive screw-up, and ended pretty badly.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby Icarus » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:27 am

The elf armor was more a bug than a screwup, frankly. Shit happens, though, the game is still very much in development and things occasionally get wonked. I personally remember a certain cage iron helm and a half dozen custom awesome armor pieces that were unbalanced getting loaded Vadok side, not out of malice or favoritism, but because things hadn't been balanced properly. We see these things, and they get squished. Hell, when you guys first started playing armor was ALL OVER the map due to difficulties in moving space armor to leather.

Now, honestly, I think you lot are thinking too narowly. There is not option A and option B here. And frankly it's up to the game lead to pick anyways, not us, but that being said, as long as the two sides are reasonably balanced, I'm happy. Good gets a special race, orcs get a special race. Dwarves come in, trolls come in. +1 atrib boosted humans come in, +1 atrib boosted orcs come in. Humans can craft phat gear, orcs get the same crafts. And the troll gets a log.

It's frankly silly to expect a 0rpp race to be able to go toe to toe with a 3, 4, 5 rpp race alone. Why does the goblin die to the elf? Because it's a bloody elf. Why does the farmer get squished by the troll? Because it's a bloody troll.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby Grommit » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:01 am

krelm wrote:A question, then, to Grommit: If you sincerely feel that a goodguy PC who spent as much RPP on a race/role as a badguy PC should be able to defeat the badguy handily, why then even allow badguys as a playable race? Why not go the LTOB route and have everyone just play goodguys, with orcs and whatever solely existing through admin animation? It's the only way you could possibly have the race differential be "believable" lore-wise, without pissing exactly half of the playerbase off. Or, as someone mentioned (Kory? Songweaver?) you could just close the spheres off to each other entirely, and not have PvP be a central focus of the game, but that's boring.

Of course, I'm not suggesting any of the above, it was a hypothetical.

As far as solutions go, I believe that SW has the right of it, though I would even be okay with dwarf-made armor having more durability than regular armor. It would provide the same AC as other craftable armor (everything would provide the same AC*) but last longer, generally. And also his opinions on stats and skills were pretty good, too.


*Just a clarification here, NO SINGLE PIECE OF ARMOR SHOULD PROVIDE MORE AC THAN ANY PIECE OF ARMOR THAT CAN BE CRAFTED. For any reason, ever. If the best piece of armor that can be crafted has 6 AC, then any (not every) piece of armor than a PC can conceivably get should have, maximum, 6 AC.

Do I suspect people getting armor that gives them like 10000000 AC, willy-nilly? No. But, and no offense to Frigga, it's happened at least once recently. Staff giving out armor that's way better than any other armor is the type of shit I cannot tolerate.


What's LTOB? I couldn't find it on google.

I don't understand your 'all or nothing' approach. If the lore is that Team Baddie generally relies on numbers than individual epic prowess, why does that mean to you that 'well shit, let's just give up on PvP all together?'

My objection is to the feeling that you've "earned" the right to kick ass in combat by "spending" RPP. Because then it just sounds like we're talking about balancing a combat sim to make sure parallel perk trees are all viable. But we're not operating in that kind of vacuum.

The elf armor gear was not "haha let's screw over the dark side." It was "this should be good gear so I'll set it to good." And then "oh, I didn't realize the numbers I put it made it this insane, sorry." Like literally you got a sorry for it. This kind of human error is aggravating, but since it's error not corruption, I'm not sure how the word "tolerate" applies here. Icarus and I will be making automated systems to stop this, however, because the end result of these understandable mistakes is still a giant PITA for players. I get that. Only relevant factors should affect gear quality, not 'oops I don't have a doctorate in o-vals'. But, to me, relevance is 1) difficult of making, 2) skill of crafter, AND 3) racial/lore aspects. I don't know how to emphasize further that on the one hand that elf gear was too strong by accident, and on the other the solution is not to make it functionally identical to what humans can make, because this is just a random town on a river, not some magic hotbed of the best human crafters in existence who can equal the craftsmen at Thranduil's Halls, at least not as discussed before in matters of camouflage.


I don't understand the obsession with "everything must be craftable" or the "DON'T TOUCH AC" business. For the latter, I assume that is a rule for people who don't understand how much a single point can do, but it seems silly to me to make armor boosts only about things that are secondary to armor like its weight or sneak hide, but not directly to say that better races (or PC crafters with higher skill values) can't make gear that is any more or less protective. But, if you make ACs accept decimals, boom, the problem that +1 AC is a massive change is solved. Now you can offer sub-AC boosts.

However, any changes will involve statistics and graphs so it's not more fumbling around in the dark but you can see who would win all else being equal, and how often, so you can make sure things aren't adjusted higher than you intended. But the end result would follow more of tehkory's range of acceptable percentages, except that I think he might have favored 50/50 based on RPP cost, which is that whole "RPP is PvP currency" thing again.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby AdamBlue » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:16 am

So when do I get to play a wizard?
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby WorkerDrone » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:20 am

RPP as a system is inherently flawed (in it's current form) to begin with, but that's beside the point.

There's a few different arguments being made, with the general inflection used by staff being "we'll generally attempt to balance things but if the way we implement something generally which favors X over Y, well..."

Ignoring any biases from players or staff, there is absolutely little reason at all to engender ill-will between players or staff over something as stupid as equipment or skills or stats. Put everyone in generally the same level playing field so that there's little to no reason to argue on the internet over who got what and why. Why do otherwise, under any circumstances?

ETA:

Personal opinion: Handing out snazzy shit that no one else can get their hands on, or giving noticeable advantages to people isn't really a problem, insofar that the other side of the same coin, when we're talking strictly speaking, spheres of players engaging in conflict, have a similar access to the same advantages. Problem solved.

Though it seems Icarus generally favors that as well, so the point may be moot.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby Grommit » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:22 am

WorkerDrone wrote:RPP as a system is inherently flawed (in it's current form) to begin with, but that's beside the point.

There's a few different arguments being made, with the general inflection used by staff being "we'll generally attempt to balance things but if the way we implement something generally which favors X over Y, well..."

Ignoring any biases from players or staff, there is absolutely little reason at all to engender ill-will between players or staff over something as stupid as equipment or skills or stats. Put everyone in generally the same level playing field so that there's little to no reason to argue on the internet over who got what and why. Why do otherwise, under any circumstances?


Because you don't seem to understand how un-fun the game is when it's just Rust with greenery. What makes the game is its Tolkien richness and it's no fun to just be a spectator of it by having staff play all the races beyond standard human/orc/warg. And it's immersion breaking to have them all perform and be equipped flatly.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby WorkerDrone » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:26 am

Largely hyperbole. I'm of the mind that Elves and Dwarves should be playable. I'm not of the mind that they should be kickass Superfriends who romp in like Arnold Schwarzenegger in Predator, chewing through one-liners like bubblegum and gibbing PCs. Obviously that's probably not going to happen, but you have to balance the statistical advantages against the advantages of the other players to have any hope of ensuring that.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby Melkor » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:27 am

Grommit wrote:I don't understand the obsession with "everything must be craftable" or the "DON'T TOUCH AC" business. For the latter, I assume that is a rule for people who don't understand how much a single point can do, but it seems silly to me to make armor boosts only about things that are secondary to armor like its weight or sneak hide, but not directly to say that better races (or PC crafters with higher skill values) can't make gear that is any more or less protective. But, if you make ACs accept decimals, boom, the problem that +1 AC is a massive change is solved. Now you can offer sub-AC boosts.


This is an interesting idea, but wouldn't that require that everything in the combat code and the gear can accept values in the decimal range?

Even if, that kind of overhaul might still be worth it in the long run. Variance would not have to be so dramatic.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby Grommit » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:34 am

WorkerDrone wrote:Largely hyperbole. I'm of the mind that Elves and Dwarves should be playable. I'm not of the mind that they should be kickass Superfriends who romp in like Arnold Schwarzenegger in Predator, chewing through one-liners like bubblegum and gibbing PCs. Obviously that's probably not going to happen, but you have to balance the statistical advantages against the advantages of the other players to have any hope of ensuring that.


Gotcha. I'm in agreement there.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby Grommit » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:36 am

Melkor wrote:
Grommit wrote:I don't understand the obsession with "everything must be craftable" or the "DON'T TOUCH AC" business. For the latter, I assume that is a rule for people who don't understand how much a single point can do, but it seems silly to me to make armor boosts only about things that are secondary to armor like its weight or sneak hide, but not directly to say that better races (or PC crafters with higher skill values) can't make gear that is any more or less protective. But, if you make ACs accept decimals, boom, the problem that +1 AC is a massive change is solved. Now you can offer sub-AC boosts.


This is an interesting idea, but wouldn't that require that everything in the combat code and the gear can accept values in the decimal range?

Even if, that kind of overhaul might still be worth it in the long run. Variance would not have to be so dramatic.


All the numbers are hidden to you. I don't see a reason we can't multiply everything by 10 or 100 in the back end, and then have more flexibility with tweaking things subtly. When you go from "decent but you still die" to "impossible twink fortress" in just 4 or 5 numbers, you're not left with a lot of choices for spacing out gear.

Sure you have 1000 HP now, but the shot that did 5 damage to you now does 50 damage. But now instead of picking 4, 5, or 6, we can pick 47 or 53.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby WorkerDrone » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:37 am

That sounds like a hilarious idea, actually.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby Melkor » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:40 am

Grommit wrote:
Melkor wrote:
Grommit wrote:I don't understand the obsession with "everything must be craftable" or the "DON'T TOUCH AC" business. For the latter, I assume that is a rule for people who don't understand how much a single point can do, but it seems silly to me to make armor boosts only about things that are secondary to armor like its weight or sneak hide, but not directly to say that better races (or PC crafters with higher skill values) can't make gear that is any more or less protective. But, if you make ACs accept decimals, boom, the problem that +1 AC is a massive change is solved. Now you can offer sub-AC boosts.


This is an interesting idea, but wouldn't that require that everything in the combat code and the gear can accept values in the decimal range?

Even if, that kind of overhaul might still be worth it in the long run. Variance would not have to be so dramatic.


All the numbers are hidden to you. I don't see a reason we can't multiply everything by 10 or 100 in the back end, and then have more flexibility with tweaking things subtly. When you go from "decent but you still die" to "impossible twink fortress" in just 4 or 5 numbers, you're not left with a lot of choices for spacing out gear.

Sure you have 1000 HP now, but the shot that did 5 damage to you now does 50 damage. But now instead of picking 4, 5, or 6, we can pick 47 or 53.


This is so simple of an idea, but yet so innovative, I can't see how it hasn't already been implemented. Make it so, please! Multiplying by 100 sounds like the best way to go to me, perhaps even 1000 if that doesn't complicate it too much.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby Matt » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:53 am

Please do that.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby tehkory » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:22 pm

What's LTOB?

Lost Tales of Beleriand, a little RPI run by Kithrater that came up with the beginnings of most of the code-changes and etc. that seperates SoI-That-Was from the 'Atonement/Parallel' codebase it uses.

And, of course, RPP Races should have stat weaknesses, as well as strengths. All stats (besides Presence) do important things in this version of the engine.


They do, but...I don't see where Dwarves are inherently 'weaker' in any areas, nor Elves. Why not just give them +1 to 5 different things, or 3 different things, or what-have-you?

Strength/Agility do wonky things past peak


Why I'm really averse to anything higher than +2, and why I'd much rather just +1s

3-point stat variance between characters

The stat variance is fine as long as it isn't greater than RPP boosts are...so, 1-point stat variance? Sure. Anything more? Boo.

multiply by X

does all existing gear have to be replaced?
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby Songweaver » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:47 pm

The reason that the codebase never multiplied dam/ac/hp by 100 before is because Kithrater and I decided to lean towards simple standardization for armor/weapons, instead of customization. It was our attempt to make sure that builders couldn't create poorly balanced gear (because of the issues with some of old SOI's admins' less than fair activities), at the cost of there being inherently less functional variability in weapons/armor. For our purposes, it worked for Atonement; everyone was a human being, with access to the same technology and resources.

I'm not inherently opposed to increasing the variability this way, but I am aware that it means that standardization will once again become a more manual thing.

I heartily encourage the staff to add a policy in regards to themselves, if they go this route. Only people who truly understand how the math works should be making gear and plugging in AC/damage/etc variables manually. If we've already seen a number of mistakes on SOI3 from admins not understanding the value of the gear that they've loaded, then this policy would be all-the-more important.

The reason that I lean towards preferring a more black&white approach is earned from something that I've both witnessed and experienced personally; sometimes, volunteer admins take their leave. If whomever is the watchdog of this new system goes away, and nobody else understands how to balance the numbers, or if whomever on staff is safeguarding against admin corruption (not that we have any now), and a corrupt admin comes along and starts giving their friends super-gear ... well, that's bad. But, it does happen.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby tehkory » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:34 pm

I don't understand the obsession with "everything must be craftable" or the "DON'T TOUCH AC" business.

If at this point the multiple arguments across multiple threads have brought you absolutely NONE understanding, then I don't think they're going to for some time. If you're saying you have no comprehension whatsoever as to why people would say this, then there's probably just not going to be any convincing you, and there's little chance you're going to see the player-side reasonings for this while Adminning.

I get your reasoning, I really do, which is why I'm surprised you don't get anyone else's, but if that's the case, there's nothing to be done.

RE: "Increased health points/lowered weight aren't enough for Dwarven/Eleven armor," that's another thing that really only going to make sense a player who's had overweight, ill-repaired, lousy gear is going to understand. Wear-and-tear matters more than ever, unless the larger damages can now be repaired. They weren't repairable earlier on in the game. AC is A metric by which armor may be measured. It is not THE metric by which armor may be measured. Same as weaponry. Gripping a weapon, or being unable to, is a metric by which you can measure a weapon. Weight, durablity, those are both good too. We don't necessarily have to give a complete overhaul of all gear/damage/health/healing-rates in-game just to fit in Dwarves/Elves, too.

The falsest comparison that keeps getting brought up is that we're comparing the lowest and meanest and basest of Men to the highest their respective racest. The Prince of the Woodland Realms really need not be compared to my PC. My PC is not Thorin Oakenshield. We are not his close kin(who were likely wearing cloaks made by Dwarven women, and they were still really crappy cloaks). Not everything made by a Dwarf in Tolkien is majestic. If I roll a Dwarf, my PC is not Thorin Oakenshield. He does not get mithril, sorry, so it's categorically wrong to say that in the books everything that's Dwarven is really BA and amazing.

Please realize that I can argue for something that you don't like and still like Tolkien and still want this to be a Tolkien-based MUD. We just have differences on the PCs people ought to be playing, and how close those PCs should be to Thranduil's son and Thorin and Dain's cousins.

ETA:
Removed some overly strong language.
Last edited by tehkory on Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Races, Balance, and Lore

Postby Real » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:40 pm

We love you grandpa, put the belt away.
Everything gets smaller now the further that I go
Towards the mouth and the reunion of the known and the unknown
Consider yourself lucky if you think of it as home
You can move mountains with your misery if you don't
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