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[Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

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[Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Icarus » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:21 pm

While part of me was hesitant about doing this, what with you all riled up and such, but I need the feedback. I'm about to embark on an audit, and knowing that players who utilize this gear every day often figure out funky things about it, I'd like your feedback.

Please let me know what your experience has been with crafting and utilizing the current spread of equipment IG. Does anything seem particularly useless? Is anything particularly essential? Do you have your sekret twink formula of gear? Differences between Orc and Human loadouts?

WHAT THIS THREAD IS NOT:
- A place to vent about all the ills in the world
- A discussion board for non-craftable gear
- A place to put your wishlist

:nom:

Things Icarus Learned:
    Variables in armor and weapons have no explanation
    Check armor craft timers, see if balanced
    See why people can wield two "medium" weapons. Needs fix to prevent.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Songweaver » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:49 pm

Crafted equipment has seemed pretty balanced in my opinion. I have tried out a few vastly different builds successfully. I do believe that I have a personal favorite build and armor/weapon set for the current metagame, but it didn't seem to negate the viability of other choices.

The big question mark for me mostly has to do with crafting resources and timers. It seems like acquiring enough metal to make significant amounts of good gear has been a big problem for most of the human sphere. I'm not sure how it's been for the orcs.

It also seems like crafting timers for armor are really long. Long timers for a weapon, which is one item ultimately, makes sense. You need a whole suit of armor, though, and that's 5-6 items.

I've also felt like neck location armor feels strangely absent.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby tehkory » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:59 pm

Icarus wrote:While part of me was hesitant about doing this, what with you all riled up and such, but I need the feedback. I'm about to embark on an audit, and knowing that players who utilize this gear every day often figure out funky things about it, I'd like your feedback.

Please let me know what your experience has been with crafting and utilizing the current spread of equipment IG. Does anything seem particularly useless? Is anything particularly essential? Do you have your sekret twink formula of gear? Differences between Orc and Human loadouts?

WHAT THIS THREAD IS NOT:
- A place to vent about all the ills in the world
- A discussion board for non-craftable gear
- A place to put your wishlist

:nom:

There's not really an explanation of what variables do what, re: hides and wood. And it really should be common sense, shouldn't it? It's harder to tell than it was, and while I love all the variables, I couldn't tell you why you'd use any of them.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Icarus » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:12 pm

I could certainly post a "what variable does what" sort of thing. Or look at how the variables are in the ldesc to see if we can make them actually say what they do. This haubark is made from tough but heavy dog leather kind of stuff.

Also I miss your Atonement character.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby tehkory » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:18 pm

Icarus wrote:I could certainly post a "what variable does what" sort of thing. Or look at how the variables are in the ldesc to see if we can make them actually say what they do. This haubark is made from tough but heavy dog leather kind of stuff.

Also I miss your Atonement character.

E>. I miss that MUD/PC, but not all the time I put in per day. Good lord. *shudders*
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Matt » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:04 pm

Well right now the glaring thing to me is there's really not a lot of reason code wise to get a suit of metal armor over a set of oiled leathers. That kinda sucks when it takes so much time and effort to make metal armor from the gathering of metal to the smelting to the forging etc etc. Otherwise it seems pretty balanced. IDC about timer vs this or that really and having done both weaponcrafting and armor plenty of times it seems pretty OK to me.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Icarus » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:08 pm

Is that because the code threats aren't scary enough, or that metal isn't good enough?
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Matt » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:08 pm

Also death to all combat items that can't be crafted or have an equivalent crafted. There shouldn't be free gear IG for elves, dwarves, etc if an equivalent isn't available for us lowly common folk to make. IDC if it's really hard, just needs to be possible. If that's immersive breaking or whatever because Elves are the awesome they just need to not be IG yet.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Matt » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:09 pm

Icarus wrote:Is that because the code threats aren't scary enough, or that metal isn't good enough?


It's really because the metal armor we have right now is the crappiest quality while oiled is O-quality I think. If you compare them they have the same overall AC.

Oh yea. Can you post a damage vs armor chart? Cause I'm pretty sure bludgeons>all in terms of damage vs types of armor overall.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Icarus » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:14 pm

Me and Grom are working on it, we're going to be rebalancing quite a bit of stuff, fromt and backend. But good to now quality wise.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Songweaver » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:42 pm

To note in the way that I designed the current balance types:

Metal armor should overtake the other armor types in total defense once pquality metal armor is made craftable, which should coincide (in the current way that things are set up) with the release of gquality weapons, oquality hardened leather, and new scary-level random load mobs. This would be the next patch on the list (the last patch was trash quality metal armor, oquality leather armor, and pquality hardened leather armor).

To note about the way that I conceptualized armor with this system was that I only did the numbers for what the code calls chainmail. I assumed that better quality metal armor would eventually become scalemail, platemail, etc.

I do think that on the new damnoun vs armor-type chart that you guys created a while back, things seem a little out-of-whack.

Note: Positive numbers suggest better effectiveness against that armor-type, while negative numbers suggest less effectiveness against that armor-type.

//1 - Heavy and/or Padded Cloth & Similar
//2 - Leather
//3 - Hardened Leather
//4 - Mail
//5 - Scale
//6 - Plate
//1 2 3 4 5 6
{ 0, 0, -1, -2, -1, -3}, // stab -- small-blades, knives, daggers
{ 0, 0, -1, -2, -1, -3}, // pierce -- polearms, arrows
{ 0, 0, -1, -2, -3, -3}, // chop -- axes
{-1, 1, 0, 1, -2, -2}, // bludgeon -- clubs, flails
{ 1, 1, 0, -2, -3, -3}, // slash -- swords
{ 1, 0, 0, -2, -3, -4}, // lash -- whips
{ 1, 0, 0, 2, 2, 2}, // burn - blowtorches, flamethrowers, etc.
{ 0, 0, -2, -3, -4, -5}, // regular arrows
{ 1, 0, -1, -2, -5, -6}, // broadhead arrows - +2 armour to all, +4 bleed
{ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0} // bodkin arrows - -2 armour to all,


I'd suggest making a few changes and simplifying, with the goal to be something like below (where each major damnoun has equal strengths and weaknesses). Note that I'm ignoring scale/plate -- I don't think that you need these (just better quality mail/metal to represent the better types of metal armor), and they will certainly break the game as-is.

//1 - Heavy and/or Padded Cloth & Similar
//2 - Leather
//3 - Hardened Leather
//4 - Metal Armor
//1 2 3 4
{ 0, 0, -1, 1}, // stab -- small-blades, knives, daggers
{ 0, 0, -1, 1}, // pierce -- polearms, arrows
{ 1, 1, 0, -2}, // chop -- axes
{0, 0, 1, -1}, // bludgeon -- clubs, flails
{ 1, 1, 0, -2}, // slash -- swords
{ 1, 1, 0, -2}, // lash -- whips
{ 0, -1, -2, 3}, // burn - blowtorches, flamethrowers, etc.
{ 0, -1, -1, -2}, // regular arrows
{ 0, -1, -1, -2}, // broadhead arrows - +2 armour to all, +4 bleed
{ 0, 0, 0, 0} // bodkin arrows - -2 armour to all


Bolded is mine. This wording's always been very confusing to me. Does your opponent get +2AC vs broadhead arrows, in addition to the armor chart? If so, I'd make broadhead be four 0s across the board.

Also note that this change might demand upping the inherent AC of oquality+ metal/mail armor by a single point.

ETA: I'd also suggest removing the pre-requisite on the sword skill now that roles/races/background regions are opening up.
Last edited by Songweaver on Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Icarus » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:54 pm

I appreciate the feedback on what things should be, but I'm interested here in knowing how you find the current system as it exists today.

What are your twink builds. Your favorite weapon types. Why? Are swords really that much better IG in your experience?
[Petition: Player] I am ready to begin my interdimensional adventure.

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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby tehkory » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:10 pm

Icarus wrote:I appreciate the feedback on what things should be, but I'm interested here in knowing how you find the current system as it exists today.

What are your twink builds. Your favorite weapon types. Why? Are swords really that much better IG in your experience?



Code: Select all
{ 0, 0, -1, -2, -3, -3}, // chop -- axes
{-1, 1, 0, 1, -2, -2}, // bludgeon -- clubs, flails
{ 1, 1, 0, -2, -3, -3}, // slash -- swords

Worth another skill? Nah. They're not better than bludgeons, not in total plusses compared to maluses(-6 compared to -4), and axes(falling under Bludgeon) can be used to make that difference even smaller. You can use an axe, ALMOST as good as a sword at PVE, and then use a club if you find metal armored opponents.

I don't know quite how to fix that.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Real » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:28 pm

+++ Str, +++ Agi, Sole Wield Blunts

++++ Str, + Agi, + Con, Dual Wield Blunts

++++ Agi, ++ Con, Dual Wield Longblades

++++ Int, ++ Dex, Longbow Sniper

I'm very partial to longblades and smallblades for the bleeders you can dish out if you use honed, high-quality material weapons even with a small weapon like a shortsword or dagger. Combined with high agi you do a lot of medium-damage hits which although they heal quicker and don't look as intense as 'you bash a bristled, lanky boar sow incredibly hard on the skull', the damage numbers add up very quickly and combined with good deflect you'll get someone down to no health in no time.

Sole blunts are for crushing people with ridiculous damage, they're the sluggers and always get those hits that make you go :o -- Very useful in a team toward dishing out damage in PVP at a quick rate and reducing the enemy's ability to fight with a chunk of HP loss, varying based on their Will.

Dual-wield blunts with peak str are insane dps and have the very nice ability to both crush someone to their knees and follow up nearly-immediately with an aimed strike to the gut or something. Tremendously tough build, beyond just about anything I've seen, but needs great rolls/months of upgrades to achieve.

Longbow sniper, like...be still, my heart, with this build. You aim, you shoot, something dies a few minutes later. Once your Aim skill is high enough you can take aim quick and loading isn't that long so you can turn stuff into a pincushion with a half dozen gushing bleeders within the space of 20 seconds. Very, very strong, but requires a decent bit of code knowledge to use properly, and the Hide skill helps a lot.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby krelm » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:29 am

Bludgeon has always been better than long-blade for two reasons.

1. Somatics. Bludgeons can cause concussions and fractures. You get one of those, you're fucked.

2. Attack types. You can find a weapon with every attack type in bludgeon-- pierce, slash, blunt, whatever. I've only ever seen slash and pierce in long-blade, barring sparring weapons.

Though, I will admit, even though I say this, I've had maybe 2 characters ever that used bludgeon. One of my favorite builds is a high-agi dual dagger wielder, just to nuke people's trauma down.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Songweaver » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:19 am

Here's a few of my favorite builds.

The Bjarndyr: Ambush Barbarian (Sole-wield, Bludgeon, Sneak, Hide)
Great strength, peak agi, good con, good wil if you can get either. It's the best build, IMO, at burst damage at the start of combat, but tends to lose steam down the stretch when he begins to take significant damage. Will can help shore this up, and giving him a shieldman is a very strong strategy, but his other disadvantage comes with skill-gain. Warhammers kill things in fewer hits, and are slower to swing than single-handed weapons, so your opportunities for skill-gain are less frequent here. Still, this guy's usually going to win a one-on-one fight, particularly if he gets the drop on his opponent with ambush.

The Etinaine: Crafter-Fighter (Sole-Wield, Polearm, Craft Skills)
Peak agi, good wil, and then other stats to support your crafting. Since Polearm is the only weapon skill that relies on one stat (besides Wil) to determine your starting skill level and skillcap, it's my go-to if I'm designing a crafter build that also wants to fight efficiently. This guy should be able to do some impressive bleeders and also heal you, or make your weapons or armor, or brew some ale, or what have you.

The Galwen: Dual Daggers/Longbow (Sole-Wield, Dual-Wield, Longbow, Hide)
Great Str, Peak Agi, Good Int. This is a glass canon build, and this one's more effective in PVE melee than PVP melee, generally due to daggers' low max damage. The trauma from dual daggers at high speeds is very potent, and small-blades is the easiest combat skill to raise because it generally starts at a higher level, and attacks more often (allowing you faster skill-gain). This build easily doubles as a potent bowman. Choosing hide as a starting skill gives you access to sneaking at the base level off the bat, which makes this a good scout build when coupled with good Int to help spot enemy sneakers/hiders.

The Finley: Control/Tank (Sole-Wield, Dual-Wield, Bludgeon, Extra Skill)
Great Str, Good/Great Con, Great/Peak Wil. This is your shield-user. Put on your hardiest armor, pick up the best shield, and get a hold of a good mace. At pacifist/careful settings, this guy can block a lot. It doesn't really matter that his deflect skillcap might be uninspiring, so long as he can max it out and grab up deflect bonuses from armor and shields. He's going to be able to stay in a fight longer than other characters, and with Great Str and a mace, he's going to land some concussions/breaks to help reduce opponents' combat effectiveness. Good to have one/some of these sorts of guys in a group, though his weapon skill-gain is going to be pretty poor.

The One Orc-Dude: Dual-Wield Medium-sized Weapons DPS
I'm not gonna say that this build's one of my favorites. I think it's a mistake that PCs have been allowed to dual-wield medium-sized weapons for the run of SOI3. It's not balanced at all against low armored opponents, and it's just sort of silly. Have you ever seen someone fight with two longswords, or two maces? Nothing against PCs that do this; the code's not keeping them from doing it, currently.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Songweaver » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:50 am

I appreciate the feedback on what things should be, but I'm interested here in knowing how you find the current system as it exists today.

What are your twink builds. Your favorite weapon types. Why? Are swords really that much better IG in your experience?


My suggestion was to try to point out the issue with the current damagenoun/armor table. In my suggested example, all of the damage types (besides arrows, which balance differently) have a sum total of 0, meaning they are equally effective but against different armor-types. If you do the math on your current chart, you'll see that there's some imbalance there with the sum totals along the damnoun rows. Axes are awful. Blunt is a little too good, particularly vs metal armor. Pierce is a little weak, particularly vs metal armor. Swords are the most balanced, IMO, but having to pay an extra skill for them makes little sense to me; that's why I've not played a swordsman yet in SOI3.

This removes the potential of having a balanced combat meta-game. Nobody is saying, "Well, if I wear metal armor, I'm going to be vulnerable to polearms, so we'd better take a second shieldman in hardened leather to help deal with any spearmen", or, "We need to make sure that our soldiers are trained in a variety of weapons, so that we can deal with whatever threats the orcs throw at us". You usually know that your combat system is balanced when people have a tough time deciding on what sort of weapon or armor they want their character to use, because most of the options have their advantages. SOI does lack that, with this current armor chart.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Icarus » Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:27 pm

This is honestly an incredibly useful thread. Thank you everyone for your feedback! Please keep it coming if you have more.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby radioactivejesus » Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:57 pm

Songweaver wrote:The One Orc-Dude: Dual-Wield Medium-sized Weapons DPS
I'm not gonna say that this build's one of my favorites. I think it's a mistake that PCs have been allowed to dual-wield medium-sized weapons for the run of SOI3. It's not balanced at all against low armored opponents, and it's just sort of silly. Have you ever seen someone fight with two longswords, or two maces? Nothing against PCs that do this; the code's not keeping them from doing it, currently.


There aren't actually any real damage benefits to dual-wielding two primary sized weapons over dual-wielding a primary size and a secondary size. And the only people who are allowed to dual-wield primaries are those with peak strength. So really, the lethality comes from high skills and high strength, not from wielding an extra longsword. Go through the effort to remove the medium-sized dual wield at peak strength, and those peak strength characters will be no worse off for it

Compared to a honed, bog-iron shortsword, a honed, bog-iron longsword:
+ weighs less
+ would on average cause about the same damage
+ strikes at about the same speed

Compared to a sharp, bog-iron battleaxe, a sharp, bog-iron mace:
+ weighs less
+ would on average cause about the same damage
+ strikes at about the same speed
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
look sword
This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby tehkory » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:15 pm

radioactivejesus wrote: And the only people who are allowed to dual-wield primaries are those with peak strength.

This hasn't been true since this version of SoI got put in, actually. Unless I've literally lost my mind. Like, at all. Since weapons/hafts got changed up, multiple(most?) 'primary' type weapons are unable to be gripped, but instead able to be wielded in one hand. I've done it regularly, actually. It's not a benefit of peak strength anymore.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby radioactivejesus » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:16 pm

tehkory wrote:
radioactivejesus wrote: And the only people who are allowed to dual-wield primaries are those with peak strength.

This hasn't been true since this version of SoI got put in, actually. Unless I've literally lost my mind. Like, at all. Since weapons/hafts got changed up, multiple(most?) 'primary' type weapons are unable to be gripped, but instead able to be wielded in one hand. I've done it regularly, actually. It's not a benefit of peak strength anymore.

I'll explain things in more detail to help make it clearer.

There's 3 main types of weapons in the game. Two-handers that must always be wielded in two-hands(Greatswords, heavy spears, warhammers) primaries which can be wielded one or two-handed, but unless you have peak strength, can only be held in your main hand (longswords and maces) and finally secondaries which are one-hand only, but can be wielded in your off hand (shortswords, small axes, daggers, short-spears)

For some silly reason, short-spears aren't primaries, despite the typical short-spear being 30"+ in length. I've tried talking to staff about this a few times, but to no avail. This means that currently, some goofball would be able to dual-wield spears if he wanted to, even with low average strength.

Code: Select all
You get a blood-drenched, sharp, iron mace from a rough, pale
pinkish-brown bin.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||||>
wield mace
OK.
You wield a blood-drenched, sharp, iron mace.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||||>
grip
You shift to a two-handed grip on a sharp, iron mace.

You shift to a single-handed grip on a sharp, iron mace.


get longswor bin
You get a honed, bog-iron longsword from a rough, pale pinkish-brown
bin.

wield longswor
You are already wielding a primary weapon.

You put a honed, bog-iron longsword into a rough, pale pinkish-brown bin.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||||>
get shortswor bin
You get an engraved, honed, bog-iron shortsword from a rough, pale
pinkish-brown bin.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||||>
wield shortsword
OK.
You wield an engraved, honed, bog-iron shortsword.


put mace bin
You put a blood-drenched, sharp, iron mace into a rough, pale pinkish-brown bin.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||||>
grip
The grip command cannot be used with this weapon type.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||||>
eq
<wielded in left hand>   an engraved, honed, bog-iron shortsword


put shor bin
You put an engraved, honed, bog-iron shortsword into a rough, pale pinkish-brown bin.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||||>
get greatswor bin
You get a bloody, sharp, iron greatsword from a rough, pale pinkish-brown
bin.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||||>
wield greatswor
OK.
You wield a bloody, sharp, iron greatsword.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||||>
grip
You cannot shift your grip upon that weapon.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||||>
eq
<wielded in both hands>  a bloody, sharp, iron greatsword
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
look sword
This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby tehkory » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:20 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:
tehkory wrote:
radioactivejesus wrote: And the only people who are allowed to dual-wield primaries are those with peak strength.

This hasn't been true since this version of SoI got put in, actually. Unless I've literally lost my mind. Like, at all. Since weapons/hafts got changed up, multiple(most?) 'primary' type weapons are unable to be gripped, but instead able to be wielded in one hand. I've done it regularly, actually. It's not a benefit of peak strength anymore.

I'll explain things in more detail to help make it clearer.

There's 3 main types of weapons in the game. Two-handers that must always be wielded in two-hands(Greatswords, heavy spears, warhammers) primaries which can be wielded one or two-handed, but unless you have peak strength, can only be held in your main hand (longswords and maces) and finally secondaries which are one-hand only, but can be wielded in your off hand (shortswords, small axes, daggers, short-spears)

For some silly reason, short-spears aren't primaries, despite the typical short-spear being 30"+ in length. I've tried talking to staff about this a few times

Hrm. It looks like a case of buggy building/changes, then, because I've got logs of my character wielding multiple 'primary' handed weapons that cannot be gripped. Odd.

ETA:
Admittedly I also used to have a simple bog-iron mace that dealt more damage to everything than a honed greataxe would to anything. That was a heck of a bug.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby radioactivejesus » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:38 pm

tehkory wrote:ETA:
Admittedly I also used to have a simple bog-iron mace that dealt more damage to everything than a honed greataxe would to anything. That was a heck of a bug.

yep, bugged weapon would be the problem. Back at the very beginnings of alpha, weaponry was crazy off-balanced. There were pitted-bog-iron pickaxes that did the same damage as an ordinary quality refined iron mace, longswords that were considered secondary weapons and unwieldable weapons that could be worn as lights. There are still plenty of bugged and unbalanced weapons floating around out there, but it's best to junk them when you come across the things
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
look sword
This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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radioactivejesus
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Songweaver » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:42 am

The base damage of secondary weapons is equal to the base damage of primary weapons. Two secondary weapons are still unbalanced vs low armored opponents. IMO, dual-wielding should be used for dual daggers, or one medium-sized weapon and a small-blade (dagger). Shortswords should be a small-blade.

If we were talking about troll PCs, I'd feel differently, though that wouldn't make the DPS any more balanced. But, ultimately, in terms of roleplay, it's not a strength thing. It's a size thing. Fighting with two large weapons (i.e. longswords) is incredibly unwieldy and impractical for a character of comparable size to us players.
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Songweaver
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby BashSkull52 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:47 am

Songweaver wrote:The base damage of secondary weapons is equal to the base damage of primary weapons. Two secondary weapons are still unbalanced vs low armored opponents. IMO, dual-wielding should be used for dual daggers, or one medium-sized weapon and a small weapon (dagger).



Solution: Dont wear light armor as a melee focused player and you have nothing to worry about.
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