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[Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Icarus » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:30 am

Matt wrote:I understand the 'we don't want unbalanced super metal armor in game' argument. But at the same time the best type of armor possible IG shouldn't be a set of scout leathers.


We are in agreement there.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Songweaver » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:33 pm

As Brian noted, this is one of those situations where SOI being in ALPHA actually means something. Absolutely, it will be good to further tier and patch armor, weapons and mobs. Those are all important things. But, armor and weapons have received more attention already than many other things ALPHA. Oiled Leather might be the best armor for most situations currently (metal is already slightly better vs mobs, swords and arrows, so the difference is not absolute), but it is still balanced compared to mob and weapon damage, which is more important for the stability of the game.

I'd rather see effort put into plots, roles, standardization practices, and meaningful automated/scripted systems that can be templated and re-purposed for BETA, than to constantly be pushing the weapon/armor/mob patches. Those patches are very time consuming, and the current spread of weapons/armor in the game isn't breaking anything, and is still a lot more variability than we had, in say, Atonement's ALPHA.

Though I do miss seeing PCs sew lunch trays into their padded armor, and put cooking pots on their head.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Icarus » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:36 pm

fan blade swords, man. Fan blade swords.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Matt » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:03 pm

This is ALPHA we should be seeing more plots and roles? Really I'm fine with the admins nuking everyone's RPP and going back to orcs/humans only until the code/balance stuff is completely done. Plots are the least important thing right now. I'm muuuuch more concerned with a balanced crafting/gear/combat system.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Songweaver » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:32 pm

While you feel that way, Matt, and how you feel is entirely valid, I think that I look at it a different way.

Part of the reason why I put so much effort into Atonement ALPHA's plot while we worked on templating, building systems, improvements to the engine, and ARPI BETA, was because I wanted to capture as many great players as possible. While SOI needs to grow its systems and scope for BETA, it also needs to grow its playerbase and capture the sorts of players that have the potential to make BETA great. And most of those players aren't interested in being test subjects for ALPHA; they're interested in story-telling, which is the core function of an RPI.

I don't think that you can underestimate the importance of plot and role diversity right now. ALPHA is as much a learning and building ground as it is an advertisement to the community as to the quality that they can come to expect in the future. Capturing a larger, more roleplaying-focused playerbase now is a very important part of preparing to launch a successful BETA.

From my perspective, at least.

ETA: Also, RPAs need time to refine their skills, too. This is the perfect opportunity for them to try things, make mistakes, and increase their skills on the back-end in preparation for events and plots that might be grander in scope, or more complex, during BETA.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Matt » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:57 pm

And that was a short lived game with a very unfinished and undesirable crafting system with limited options equipment wise. Though you could customize the same stuff quite a bit. Combat was 'aim machinegun dude' then spam fire when it came to the very rare PvP there was.

The biggest difference the game wasn't PvP heavy. Balance -has- to happen before you can start focusing on huge awesome plots and all these races. Cause you'll just repeat what just happened. A bunch of players getting upset over super races coming in game and murdering their long lived PCs. Or other lameness, then you have people quit.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Brian » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:36 pm

Good thing they're working on weapons and armor balance then, and from the sounds of it, looking at events that occurred to help them. Given that things need to be tested that really seems like all we can ask for. It may not happen as quickly as our impatient player desires want them to, but balancing an entire database and making sure it functions as desired surely takes time.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby tehkory » Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:10 pm

I've never quite understood releasing items/armor to 'balance' the game. Balance what exists already, either in mobs, items, or both. If iron metal armor isn't worth it, make impure iron prohibitively heavy for PCs with lower strengths. If oiled leathers are too good, lower the AC values. There's a lot of low-overhead ways of rebalancing a game, rather than multiple crafts.

Find a good balance for combat, sure, but Songweaver(and Krelm, over in another thread) are really right about one thing: call a game whatever you want, but it dies without momentum. Have as many Staff as you want doing what they will, earning/retaining players is going to keep a game alive. Have as many players as you can shake a stick at, Staffers working does the same...but neither does it alone. Stagnation leads to the death of a MUD quickly enough. It can happen from the top down, Admins gone and then players, or from the bottom up, players drifting away and then Admins quitting, but we've all seen it happen more than once. Sometimes games recover from it. Sometimes they don't.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Mavinero » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:51 am

BashSkull52 wrote:
Songweaver wrote:The base damage of secondary weapons is equal to the base damage of primary weapons. Two secondary weapons are still unbalanced vs low armored opponents. IMO, dual-wielding should be used for dual daggers, or one medium-sized weapon and a small weapon (dagger).



Solution: Dont wear light armor as a melee focused player and you have nothing to worry about.



Some folk just prefer light armor, combat build or no. I'm not complaining. :)
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Mithrandur » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:38 pm

Mavinero wrote:
BashSkull52 wrote:
Songweaver wrote:The base damage of secondary weapons is equal to the base damage of primary weapons. Two secondary weapons are still unbalanced vs low armored opponents. IMO, dual-wielding should be used for dual daggers, or one medium-sized weapon and a small weapon (dagger).



Solution: Dont wear light armor as a melee focused player and you have nothing to worry about.



Some folk just prefer light armor, combat build or no. I'm not complaining. :)


Obviously the solution here is to trade with the dwarves of the Iron Hills for some sweet, sweet mithril for that unbreakable maille.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby MrT2G » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:35 pm

Just echo most of what has been said here;

Metal armor needs to be better relative to leather.

Long-edge doesn't seem to be better then polearm or bludgeon. I agree short swords should do less damage then long swords but long-edge in general needs to be beefed up somehow because of the two skill requirement... Maybe just remove this requirement?

Bludgeon seems to be by far the best. Maybe because of the available armors/damage type or the fact that it requires STR as a primary attribute which makes it easy to get high skill levels along with the damage bonuses of high STR. Maybe lower the chances of causing fractures/knock downs and lower the over all damage output of maces while retaining their knack for penetrating armor.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Eru » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:59 pm

MrT2G wrote:Just echo most of what has been said here;

Metal armor needs to be better relative to leather.

Long-edge doesn't seem to be better then polearm or bludgeon. I agree short swords should do less damage then long swords but long-edge in general needs to be beefed up somehow because of the two skill requirement... Maybe just remove this requirement?

Bludgeon seems to be by far the best. Maybe because of the available armors/damage type or the fact that it requires STR as a primary attribute which makes it easy to get high skill levels along with the damage bonuses of high STR. Maybe lower the chances of causing fractures/knock downs and lower the over all damage output of maces while retaining their knack for penetrating armor.


This. :nom:
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby biral » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:43 pm

No bro. People always liked using long-edge at first, because they could hit grievous easily enough when gambesons were the only craftable things for a while, then hauberks came and they could still do insane damage compare to polearms/bludgeons and cause huge bleeder flags, now that better armor is in game those players from back when are complaining because they dislike how their skills hit mediocres compare to bludgeons, which crack armor, and polearms, which gouges holes into it, swords, make rents on armor and slashes appropriately, bludgeon was always meant to have the upper hand on mid-high end armor, with some sword being better than bludgeons on scale I think? There was a table posted up somewhere with damage values and ac values, everyone knew it and people chose to take swords to have an upper hand and now people want to nerf bludgeons because they feel their swords are inferior? Swords are what it is, two handed, or dual-wielded weapons, meant to wear the opponent down and get in more hits generally through agility, look at samurais from the old days. Bludgeons and polearms use sheer strength, and some skill is involved, if you don't like your long-edges anymore then (forget long-edge, learn a new weapon style or buy a 2H sword) don't nerf a bunch of players weapons across the board, all orcs primarily use bludgeons too, so, you'd be upsetting a whole sphere and a half.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Seiryoku » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:18 am

I didn't read the previous post, just wanted to remark on how unreadable it is. It's like a stream of consciousness thing and it caught my interest.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby MrT2G » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:19 am

biral wrote:all orcs primarily use bludgeons too, so, you'd be upsetting a whole sphere and a half.


If a whole sphere uses a single weapon type I think that is evidence it is overpowered.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Eru » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:35 am

It's got nothing to do with armor. Nobody wears maille because it's heavier than oiled leathers and has no real AC benefit so you make a moot point. People use blunt weapons because of the trauma code. You can drop a player to his knees with a crit, armor or no, and consistently do it which no other weapon type can do. The fact that you can kneecap someone on the run or knock the wind out of them and set them off balance is why orcs and most combat PC's run this, because it does have a strong advantage over other weapon types. I'm not saying nerf it into the ground but bring other weapon types up to par or knock trauma from blunt weapons down a notch.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Brian » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:18 am

Concussions and bone breaks are -deadly-. No other weapon type has anything that really compares to the effects of those traumas. Bleeders pale in comparison to being concussed in terms of how screwed you are. Until there is something that makes anything other than bludgeons do more damage or have equal secondary effects expect it to stay the same.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Justanothacivy » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:07 am

Devil's advocate just for a moment....

Why are we overlooking bleeding cause by swords? Alot of people have climbed aboard the bludgeon nerf train but I distinctly remember a few times where catching a bleeder was the end of my character. You can't bind in combat and if you flee with one you are so very easy to track you may aswell have a beacon on your head. :mrgreen:

Bone breaks are so rare in player vs player I don't think I've seen one except with wooden swords getting gripped in spars.

Polearms aren't used enough for me to comment on or give any meaningful data.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby radioactivejesus » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:32 am

Brian wrote:Concussions and bone breaks are -deadly-. No other weapon type has anything that really compares to the effects of those traumas. Bleeders pale in comparison to being concussed in terms of how screwed you are. Until there is something that makes anything other than bludgeons do more damage or have equal secondary effects expect it to stay the same.

bleeders are also 20x as likely to happen as concussions are. Unless you're typing strike head every combat round, in which case your chances of hitting are greatly reduced. Also swords do +1 damage over maces, so their chances of dealing a hit that's hard enough to give extra nasty effects are higher than a similarly made mace
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
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This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby twitchyweasel » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:08 pm

Are those things worth the extra skill pick needed to take long-blade, though?
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby radioactivejesus » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:02 pm

twitchyweasel wrote:Are those things worth the extra skill pick needed to take long-blade, though?

not really. Longswords and maces are pretty comparable in terms of potency, but one of them requires 2 skill picks (which is why I think I see a lot more bludgeon users than sword users orc-side. Most people play fighter/crafter hybrids, where skill slots are at a premium). Only reason for staff to keep the 2x pick requirement for the long-blade skill is if they intentionally want to make it rarer for thematic reasons, but that would be better handled by making swords cost more metal to make than their wood-hafted counterparts.
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
look sword
This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Mithrandur » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:42 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:
twitchyweasel wrote:Are those things worth the extra skill pick needed to take long-blade, though?

not really. Longswords and maces are pretty comparable in terms of potency, but one of them requires 2 skill picks (which is why I think I see a lot more bludgeon users than sword users orc-side. Most people play fighter/crafter hybrids, where skill slots are at a premium). Only reason for staff to keep the 2x pick requirement for the long-blade skill is if they intentionally want to make it rarer for thematic reasons, but that would be better handled by making swords cost more metal to make than their wood-hafted counterparts.


Swords already -do- cost more metal than every other counter part -except- in the case of axes I believe. That said however the amount of metal isn't that much different. If you want to get into spears however, which human sphere weapon wise seems 50/50 split between sword and spear users with only a small percent using bludgeons or axes.

Let me break the material cost down as far as what percentage if an ingot us used. (each ingot has 12 uses)

Dagger = 1/12th (1 use)
longknife = 1/6th (2 uses)
short spear = 1/6th (2 uses)
heavy spear = 1/4 (3 uses)
Shortsword = 1/3 (4 uses)
Mace = 1/3 (4 uses)
Warhammer(2h) = 5/12 (5 uses)
Longsword = 5/12 (5 uses)
Battleaxe = 5/12 (5 uses)
Greatsword = 1/2 (6 uses)
Greataxe = 1/2 (6 uses)

Just from uses alone you can sort of see why so many people either go with blunt bludgeoning weapons, or spears as is. Considering one ingot of iron goes MUCH farther making a 1-handed mace than it does a longsword.

Apart from rp reasons, codedly, there's -every- reason to make a mace instead of a battleaxe, seeing as how 3 maces can be made from a single ingot, instead of two battleaxes.

As for swords, not only do they cost the most material wise (on par with axes) they require two skill picks. So why do people currently use them so much in human sphere? Because everyone wants to be a sword-wielding hero/mercenary. Probably also the reason why everyone wants dual-longswords and doesn't even bat an eye at shortswords which codedly provide the exact same benefit with the same material cost as a mace

Orcs don't have this problem. They aren't looking to be knights in shining armor or to impress their orc buddies with a shiny new etched longsword, they're more interested in just bashing and hacking and doing it with the most cost-effective tools on hand.

That said, I'm all for nerfing concussion and winding people in combat as they're really sort of overpowered in that regard. Fractures I would keep in as they happen rarely enough, and really all it does is make a slow-healing injury rather than bleed the life out of someone in the middle of combat.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Songweaver » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:32 pm

The only thing overpowered about bludgeons has to do with the broken armor-type-AC chart, as discussed on the first page of this thread. It's a minor thing to fix those charts.

A meaningful concussion is more rare than meaningful bleeding wound, and both status effects effectively force retreat or (often-times) mean defeat when you're affected by them a significant manner, and without backup. While concussions potentially last longer than infected wounds, their relative rarity and lower DPS counter-balances that nicely.

I do think that the pre-requisites for both dual-wield and long-blade should be removed, though. They've always felt out of place to me.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby MrT2G » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:31 pm

Another thing to consider is that Bludgeons are the only weapon class that gets damage selection: axes (slash/cut) mace (crush).
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby biral » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:55 am

Mitrandur;

That said, I'm all for nerfing concussion and winding
people in combat as they're really sort of overpowered
in that regard. Fractures I would keep in as they happen
rarely enough, and really all it does is make a slow-
healing injury rather than bleed the life out of someone
in the middle of combat.

Basically, you're jumping on the nerf bludgeon train because winding and concussion are overpowered. You realize concussions are hard to achieve in normal combat without spamming 'strike head' which just gives long-edge users more time to lay bleeders on the bludgeon user and even then the bludgeon user may not hit enemy on the head because its a small part of the body figure wise.

Now, touching on the winding section. Have you ever been shot at wearing kevlar? I haven't, but I've seen videos, what happens to these people who wear even the best kevlar grade out there? They're winded and most of them couldn't do a thing for a little if they wanted to, all because it converts potential fatal hole bleeder wound into blunt trauma, now, take a sledgehammer and wear riot gear which serves to protect against projectiles and debris and small bludgeon instruments like night-sticks, get hit by that sledgehammer, what happens? You're winded. That's because the sledgehammer is massive compared to night-stick, even with a mace you -will- wind that riot cop. Noone is going to go for little makeshift weapons when they have the best available to them.

Now to touch on that bleeding part, you're basically ok with the way swords can bleed you down stars of health in combat and drop con stat?

If bludgeons are nerfed, why don't we just remove everyones bludgeons in game they've spent coin on and time on and thought to get them decorated etc. And then just give everyone swords to wave around and pretend its Star Wars.

Do your research on bludgeons in real life before asking for them to be nerfed. Oh, and while were at it let's nerf Elf's Crist too?
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