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Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

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0RPP Evil Humans, Yes or No?

Yes
28
62%
No
17
38%
 
Total votes : 45

Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby krelm » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:08 pm

Splitting this from my other thread, just to get a judge of people's thoughts. Does this mean that it'll even happen at all? Probably not. But whatever!

So, here we go.

Pros of 0RPP Evil Humans:
1. Easy to implement. Stick a dingy fort up on Vadok Mal (that can be improved by PCs with crafting or whatever), take out the water objects in the orkish crafting room and the warg den, make a "tavern" and load up a water object there. Throw like 2, 3 days of plot at it and boom, humans.

2. Conflict! I mean of course the badguy humans and the orcs are gonna work together for whatever Plot reason, or whatever personal reason, but think back to TE and MM-- there's always that tension in the air. They're never gonna be friends. Also, it'll provide a good outlet for criminals in Utterby. An Utterby human would never trade illegal stuff with an orc, but another human? Sure.

3. Depth. Let's not kid ourselves here, playing an orc is easy. They have no more than 2 motivating factors. But what would drive a person to willingly live and fight with orcs? You can flesh that out! You can flesh out so much stuff!

4. Personal plot. Admins too busy to do crap? Well now you have a whole new mini-sphere that can drive plot. A whole bunch of different conflicts and struggles that people can bring to the table.

5. Challenge! You walk into a fort with all the crafting objects but nothing else. Build from the bottom up. This is the sort of thing that could make the game fun again, at least to me.

Cons of 0RPP Humans:
1. Human on orc mudsex? That was a joke. I think in oSoI's entire history there was like 1 instance of that ever happening, that I heard of. Who wants to RP that?

2. Defections? I wouldn't even call this a con, but there could potentially be some tomfoolery with humans going back and forth between Utterby and Evil Town. But, you know, I'd just call that conflict.

3. Some human could piss off some orc and it could all implode at a moment's notice? I mean that's true, but, again, conflict.

And that's all I got. Discuss!
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Oblivion » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:55 pm

Neutral.

Honestly, barely enough 'good humans' leaving their gates to try and defend/clense their surroundings (as far as I can tell) and bleeding any militaristic minded humans from that sphere would considerably weaken them.

However it could also be a shot of vitality for those who are less than satisfied with the 'good guy' side of things but don't want to play a filthy orc (though I don't see how a filthy human would be any better beyond the backstory they might have about how they decided to become a 'bad guy').

At the end of the day, at least it might give the bad guys their pvp fix, as I imagine on the average things would turn up with bad guy vs bad guy unless there was some sort of rpt that got the good humans out and about.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby tehkory » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:58 pm

Oblivion wrote:Neutral.

Honestly, barely enough 'good humans' leaving their gates to try and defend/clense their surroundings (as far as I can tell) and bleeding any militaristic minded humans from that sphere would considerably weaken them.

However it could also be a shot of vitality for those who are less than satisfied with the 'good guy' side of things but don't want to play a filthy orc (though I don't see how a filthy human would be any better beyond the backstory they might have about how they decided to become a 'bad guy').

At the end of the day, at least it might give the bad guys their pvp fix, as I imagine on the average things would turn up with bad guy vs bad guy unless there was some sort of rpt that got the good humans out and about.

I started over in TE, but never played an orc. Not sure I'd've joined the MUD at all if not for that chance. Variety's good when it comes getting new players and retaining the old.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Hawkwind » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:09 pm

Corsairs!
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby krelm » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:17 pm

Kory wrote:Variety


Pro #6.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby WorkerDrone » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:17 pm

Yes please.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Nimrod » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:11 pm

I voted in your poll, Krelm. :)
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby cfelch » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:12 pm

And I know how he voted!
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby radioactivejesus » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:29 pm

yes, but not during alpha. I don't really feel like the game's ready for it right now. Only humans vadok-side should be brought there, not commenced there.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Matt » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:35 am

I voted yes to this but at the same time I don't feel like you can do orcs/humans/wargs all at once with the pbase evil side has.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Patty » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:40 am

We barely have enough orcs around to do anything. Adding in wargs didn't make more activity, it just kinda split us up even more. Adding in humans will likely do the same in my opinion.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Songweaver » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:59 am

Adding in evil humans would likely draw a few old players back and help retain current players. In the past, having evil humans also provided a stepping stone for "human" players to taste the evil side of things, before they tried out playing a proper orc. The increased interactivity within the evil sphere would also provide continuous RP that might help make playing orcs more sustainable.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Patty » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:22 am

Songweaver wrote:Adding in evil humans would likely draw a few old players back and help retain current players. In the past, having evil humans also provided a stepping stone for "human" players to taste the evil side of things, before they tried out playing a proper orc. The increased interactivity within the evil sphere would also provide continuous RP that might help make playing orcs more sustainable.


I think that sounds right, but I just have flashbacks to Egthela when the Balcoth had a little area they stayed in, the harads had a little area they stayed in, and the orcs had a little area they stayed in. If we're forced to mingle, that would be nice.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Icarus » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:31 am

*personal opinion*

Indeed. I'm relatively against splitting of groups, and fight against that as much as I can. As long as the groups have to co-mingle within the same area, I'm for it. Even with the wargs, I understand that they are separated a-bit. I'd much prefer the lot of them, even if ICly they don't like each other, have to be about each other.

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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Brian » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:34 am

I went with a no here because I don't feel that it makes sense to me that you'd have an outpost of humans in Mirkwood. The "evil" humans of middle-earth primarily feature cultural groups where their entire culture has been corrupted by Sauron. There aren't any of those culture groups in proximity to Mirkwood, nor is Mirkwood the kind of place I can imagine these evil humans setting out for. It isn't known yet by anyone that Sauron is the necromancer, he isn't mustering the strength he has to join him in Dol Guldur, and why would any Man want to live amongst orcs and wargs in one of the least hospitable places in middle-earth? In Egthela, Minas Morgul, and the settings that featured evil humans in the past all of these things weren't factors. They were areas where the cultures of evil Men had unimpeded access to, where there was profit and influence to be had by their presence, and where they stood to have some dominance in the local affairs. None of these things are true of Men in Mirkwood.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Songweaver » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:38 am

Brian wrote:I went with a no here because I don't feel that it makes sense to me that you'd have an outpost of humans in Mirkwood. The "evil" humans of middle-earth primarily feature cultural groups where their entire culture has been corrupted by Sauron. There aren't any of those culture groups in proximity to Mirkwood, nor is Mirkwood the kind of place I can imagine these evil humans setting out for. It isn't known yet by anyone that Sauron is the necromancer, he isn't mustering the strength he has to join him in Dol Guldur, and why would any Man want to live amongst orcs and wargs in one of the least hospitable places in middle-earth? In Egthela, Minas Morgul, and the settings that featured evil humans in the past all of these things weren't factors. They were areas where the cultures of evil Men had unimpeded access to, where there was profit and influence to be had by their presence, and where they stood to have some dominance in the local affairs. None of these things are true of Men in Mirkwood.


I would just go outside-the-box of standard set-up to accomplish this. I wouldn't approach this like SOI's approached evil humans in the past; I think that it worked well for Tur Edendor, and markedly less well for Egthela later on.

Example of what could work: a group of well-trained bandits, many of them coming from Southglain or destroyed Mirkwood townlets, led by an exiled Easterling Warlord that has found a cursed artifact, and so has become enthralled by the will of the Necromancer in secret.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Brian » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:43 am

Certainly you could make something like that work. It's also that I prefer my bad guys as orcs rather than Men. Orcs are the enemy I'd prefer to see people inclined to the dark side tackle. True, this may limit people who don't want to play orcs but I'd prefer that they give it a try!
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby cfelch » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:59 am

To those who are nay-saying this purely out of relational sphere sizes... for shame.
Tolkien often depicted the dark side of human nature and how greed and ambition drive evil.

Name one canonical reason not to allow this.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Patty » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:14 am

Brian wrote:I went with a no here because I don't feel that it makes sense to me that you'd have an outpost of humans in Mirkwood. The "evil" humans of middle-earth primarily feature cultural groups where their entire culture has been corrupted by Sauron. There aren't any of those culture groups in proximity to Mirkwood, nor is Mirkwood the kind of place I can imagine these evil humans setting out for. It isn't known yet by anyone that Sauron is the necromancer, he isn't mustering the strength he has to join him in Dol Guldur, and why would any Man want to live amongst orcs and wargs in one of the least hospitable places in middle-earth? In Egthela, Minas Morgul, and the settings that featured evil humans in the past all of these things weren't factors. They were areas where the cultures of evil Men had unimpeded access to, where there was profit and influence to be had by their presence, and where they stood to have some dominance in the local affairs. None of these things are true of Men in Mirkwood.


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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby cfelch » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:28 am

The river running runs strait out of the Mirkwood to the Sea of Rhun, where Easterlings live.

And to be fair, cultures got at the mention because Tolkein was describing a political atmosphere as well.

There would be common thieves and outlaws in any territory, and once they are so wanted they can not show up in human villages, where do you think they would turn?
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Onasaki » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:43 am

Those that are against because lore. Stop being lore nazis, we don't have to follow the lore to the T. Look at TE. The only reason that was blown up in the first place, was because they were trying to consolidate Orc VS Human PVP again, and bring back Osgiliath days. That's literally the reason that was all over the forums.

Those that are for, I'm with you, but I also have to agree with RJ on the idea that, it should be something considered, but not implemented yet. I agree that most humans we orcs drag to Vadok, should, infact, be slaves to Vadok. I'd go as far as making evil humans 1-2RPP, but with no bonuses aside from race. It shouldn't be extremely common, until we have forts, and reasons to suddenly have 20 humans orc-side.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby bjg2k1us » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:43 pm

Lore Nazi, voted no - but only in the current implementation. In Beta, I'd be disappointed if Easterlings and lawless 'brigands' scouring the wilds weren't part of Laketown's problems (even more than orcs, perhaps?). Having a bunch of 0 RPP humans with their own little shack in the middle of Mirkwood right next to the orc caves doesn't seem to add much to the story here.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Songweaver » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:58 pm

This begs the great question:

What exactly is the story here? :p If it's still being re-imagined or formulated, now's the perfect time to adapt that re-imagining to allow for more variety in human characters.

Knowing exactly what's at the heart of our ALPHA story is the first step, though. I've seen a number of disparate plots go limp after a time, and a few even resolve respectably, but I haven't seen anything tying them together in a way that says, "Oh, this is why we're all playing in Utterby and Vadok Mal right now!"

Hopefully this becomes more and more apparent over-time. And if the meta-plot could be enhanced with the addition of brigands, I say enhance it! While it's not universal, it seems clear that the majority of the pbase that's voting would like to see humans in the evil sphere, which is probably just a part of folks wanting more options in general.

ETA: I don't think that there's a firm argument from the "Lore Nazi" point-of-view. As I mentioned before, you can absolutely conceive something believable that supplements canon in a respectful way, here. You might just need to think beyond the approach that's been applied in the past.

Open your minds, man. :shock:
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Frigga » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:17 pm

If there was a big evil Easterling warlord running around in the area who was in the thrall of Sauron, that seems like something that would have gotten a mention somewhere. ;)

Also, going back to the whole Easterlings and Harad as the source of all evil in the area, I think does a disservice to our established efforts to "think outside the box" on other topics of role inclusiveness.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Songweaver » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:22 pm

Who said anything about the Haradrim? :p

Or that the source of all evil in the area has to be human, just because some are suggesting that we add evil humans into the gameworld?

Also, let's not assume that when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, by far our greatest look into this region at this time, he had fully imagined Easterlings and everything else that he would later imagine in regards to Middle-Earth. We know that the Easterlings are very close to the east of where we are now. Why should we assume that if Tolkien never wrote about an artifact that it simply doesn't exist? No offense meant, but it's very restrictive logic.

Granted, if you don't want an exiled Easterling Warlord rallying nearby bandits to work with the orcs of Vadok Mal, don't make an Easterling Warlord. There are many ways you could go about approaching what this thread suggests. That was just an example.
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