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Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

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0RPP Evil Humans, Yes or No?

Yes
28
62%
No
17
38%
 
Total votes : 45

Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Oblivion » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:48 pm

I don't think it's necessarily a matter of people needing to 'open their minds'. We're all imaginative enough to come up with plenty of ways to justify what we want to happen.

I mostly think the people who are against it, see the same scenario playing out that has played out a half dozen times when humans are introduced into the 'bad guy' sphere.

Step one: Humans arrive, perhaps commenced together in a small group to initialize things.
Step two: Orcs commence to bullying/showing strength or dominance.
Step three: Humans don't like this, fight back (though unless they commenced with boosted skills and free gear, it's unlikely that any recently introduced human will have the skill to actually win.)
Step four: Orcs overcompensate and either kill important humans, or end up ostracizing the human pbase.
Step five: Human sphere is created, giving humans a place to hole up among themselves and spam sparring and go on patrols involving humans only, until they feel their skills are sharp enough and they've gained equipment enough, to fight back against the overbearing orcs.

*this is just what I would imagine happening*

Or if there were 'bandits' they would require their own sort of build up, because even 'bandits' started off as good-guy humans and wouldn't immediately run to the arms of the Mountain. They would need a home-base likely set up through enterable progs (representing being hidden in the forest) then they would need setup such as a small outdoor forge for maintaining and creating armor and weapons (or some sort of further scripted way for the 'bandits' to 'raid' for such supplies). Then it would need to be populated, likely through special application. And at the end of the day, you have just created a third sphere for the player base to choose from. One that has potential for conflict against both orcs -and- utterby.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Brian » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:54 pm

I agree with everything that Oblivion wrote there. I think even to the most evil human something like an orc would not be something you want to live beside and work with unless you absolutely must, or are forced to.

Similarly for orcs, why would they want to work with Men? I don't really see orcs thinking "well, I like these particular Men, those other Men are just the worst." Orcs would welcome humans into Vadok Mal for what reason? Like Oblivion said I suppose we could invent any reason we wanted, but I don't really see it, unless forced to by a higher power like the Necromancer. If they're not being forced to ally with these Men, why would they? Are they being pushed to their limits by the resistance of Utterby and have to ally with Men to stave off destruction? It certainly doesn't seem like it. I'm struggling to see why they would invite others into the loot, glory, pillage and all the rest when it would appear they're capable of holding their own and don't have someone they abjectly fear making them do so.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Matt » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:47 pm

As much as I love evil humans I kind of have to agree with those two dudes.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby cfelch » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:51 pm

I have to admit .... you have some good arguments there.
But simply pointing out the challenges is not much help.
What we need is a way to avoid falling into those pitfalls.
Every point ever made was an argument.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Knight26 » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:09 pm

I think I would return if this happened.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby bjg2k1us » Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:38 am

I guess the thing is, I'm not against evil humans in the slightest - I'd actually prefer them to orcs as the playable 'badguy' sphere in this setting. The idea of bandits and Easterlings fits really well with this part of Middle-Earth. What doesn't seem to fit is the idea of just sticking an 'evil' human camp in with the orc caves and calling it a day. This isn't MM or TE with some great evil power directly forcing them to live and work together. The orcs can't even get along with the other orc tribes... why are they going to ally with some bunch of humans? And why would people think 'I know what I'll do with my life, move into the middle of Mirkwood and live side-by-side with some orcs'?

I'm not saying you can't write up some reason for it to happen. You could write about a guy who sets himself on fire for no reason other than to troll people, or about the arrival of Daleks into Middle-Earth. What I don't see is anyone writing something that won't feel utterly contrived and forced, merely for the sake of making it happen. And that's what the suggestion has been to this point: we want evil humans, they can live with the orcs, someone write up a reason why they're there, it doesn't really matter what, because it will be cool.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby Songweaver » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:05 am

You could write about a guy who sets himself on fire for no reason other than to troll people,


Hey, I did that to win a story-telling contest!
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby cfelch » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:41 am

Sticking them will the orcs is/was just a stop gap measure, so they can be rolled out quicker.

I agree that it would be a very unlikely story.
But this is alpha still.
People just want a ball so they can get it rolling.
Every point ever made was an argument.
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Re: Split: 0RPP Evil Humans, a Poll

Postby bjg2k1us » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:55 am

Songweaver wrote:Hey, I did that to win a story-telling contest!


Now I want to see what his PCs will do to win an Iron Chef competition. :D


ETA: In all seriousness, yeah, it's ALPHA, but one of the earliest lessons from ALPHA has been "be careful about the clans and concepts that you add to the gameworld". So I don't think it's unreasonable to say that while evil humans can add a lot to the game, it really needs to be done in a considered and careful manner, not 'throw it in and figure out the specifics later, because it would be cool'.
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