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Sixth sense

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Sixth sense

Postby Dirgs » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:15 pm

Since when has it been a standard norm to spam search the moment you OOCly know your hide has been broken, and therefore you OOCly know something/body is in the room? How does your character know that?

No, I haven't had a character revealed that way recently. It just boggles me when I see it happen so often.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby Icarus » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:22 pm

Even I've been guilty of this.

Sometimes, it's a rabbit. Sometimes it's a hidler. Regardless, it's a quirk of the engine that you only get rolled vs hide/sneak when there is another mobile in the room.

When it occurs, one should at least emote before spam searching.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby Brian » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:05 am

Unfortunately this is one of those things that happens and is going to keep happening. It's a very special player that can refuse to take the ooc knowledge they have and not use it in a situation where their character could be in peril. A character doesn't know they've been spotted but a prompt clearly informs the player. But it is how it is so the best you can do is react accordingly. If you're hidden and people start spamming search the best you can do is try and sneak away before you're uncovered. As far as solutions go I see 2,with the first being my preference though either would be better than the status quo.

1) Remove the part of the prompt that tells you that you're hidden. Adjust the messages for sneaking so that a speaker only sees the success messages and doesn't see that he's walking out of the room if he fails leaving a room and doesn't get the "you are observed" message if he fails going into a room.

2) Greatly increase the time it takes to resolve the search command. I like this one less because it also shows things down when you have a legitimate reason to be searching, but it would help mitigate the most common scenario of people frantically searching because they got the ooc messages that they failed a sneak or their hide prompt is gone. A longer search time would at least allow a hidden character to act accordingly when they see the searches happen.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby cfelch » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:24 am

I think the real culprit is the all or nothing Boolean nature of hiding.

You either are, and you are invisible.
Or you aren't, and the whole world can see you.

It really needs to be instanced on a per mob basis as to weather or not you are visible.

Weather or not you notice them noticing you could be a separate skill check.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby Patty » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:52 am

Once again it boils down to we roleplay everything when its convenient for us, but if we're at risk we rely on the code (most of us). I agree with you cfelch that it would be nice if it were per mob/player but I'm not sure how much of a coding headache things like that are.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby Brian » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:54 am

Patty wrote:Once again it boils down to we roleplay everything when its convenient for us, but if we're at risk we rely on the code (most of us). I agree with you cfelch that it would be nice if it were per mob/player but I'm not sure how much of a coding headache things like that are.


This is definitely the impression I got from the PvP thread that was going on. I think it's important to be aware of the reality of the situation; then you have the option of reacting accordingly or trying to change the behaviour. Best that we're not under any illusions though.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby radioactivejesus » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:19 am

cfelch wrote:I think the real culprit is the all or nothing Boolean nature of hiding.

You either are, and you are invisible.
Or you aren't, and the whole world can see you.

It really needs to be instanced on a per mob basis as to weather or not you are visible.

Weather or not you notice them noticing you could be a separate skill check.

I'm in complete agreement with you here. The idea of redoing the hide system in that manner has been around since early atonement, and likely longer. It's silly as hell to sneak into a room to try and get closer to that human/orc you're stalking, and have you revealed to the enemy because even though your opponent didn't see you, that squirrel sitting in the tree sure did, and raised the alarm.

In the long run, it's far better for the game to fix the code, rather than reprimand all the characters who search after getting exposed
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby Brian » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:58 am

radioactivejesus wrote:I'm in complete agreement with you here. The idea of redoing the hide system in that manner has been around since early atonement, and likely longer. It's silly as hell to sneak into a room to try and get closer to that human/orc you're stalking, and have you revealed to the enemy because even though your opponent didn't see you, that squirrel sitting in the tree sure did, and raised the alarm.

In the long run, it's far better for the game to fix the code, rather than reprimand all the characters who search after getting exposed


This is probably the ideal solution, though I imagine changing the messages is a lot easier to do!
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby tehkory » Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:48 pm

The only change from SoI-that-was is a simple prompt addition that allows you to know when you're hidden, and that hide auto-succeeds rather than being 'hide' and then no clue as to whether you're successful at it or not.

I think it's a necessary evil that people be able to tell that they're hidden, and that people are alerted when they're revealed.

What you're describing is a problem, sure. But it's a hell of a lot better than groups of players sneaking past eachother without a clue that they were there, ever. It'd be a far more boring game if people weren't made aware someone else was there, hiding, in the room, didn't search for them, and then went on about their business. Sure, someone searched for you because -they- were revealed. It sucks. But you got to play out a scene with them once they found you, which, given the minimal players this MUD can have sometimes? It's far better to have these things happening than not.

Think of it this way.

Ideal Situation:
Bob sneaks into room, failing his sneak check and becoming visible.
Tom starts emoting at Bob from the shadows, becoming revealed fairly quickly despite having talented hide/sneak.
Tom is visible, Bob is visible, Bob/Tom start to emote at each other.

Current Situation:
Bob sneaks into room, failing his sneak check and becoming visible
Bob immediately starts searching--what a bastard, right?--finding Tom.
Tom is visible, Bob is visible, Bob/Tom start to emote at eachother.

Note how those situations BEGAN the same and ENDED the same. When the current situation begins the same and comes out to the same result as the ideal situation, we're quibbling over small crap. It's not as big of a problem as you're making it out to be.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby Justanothacivy » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:16 pm

I'm positive this has been discussed at length before. A hotfix would be to put a timer on search itself and encourage roleplay towards "You know you're being watched but your character does not." sort of thing.

Long term fixes like an entire stealth re-do should probably wait for now. We can tough it out till then.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby Brian » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:39 pm

I think the problem isn't with Bob and Tom usually Kory. When it becomes a problem is when Bob is in a room and Tom, Jon, Dave, Mark, and Ken are in a group. Tom fails his sneak check, he searches, and then all his merry companions search as well. Now Bob is in pretty serious hot water not because of anything he did but because Tom failed his sneak check.

Its a problem when Bob explicitly does jot want to be revealed but is because of OOC quirks of code, not because he did anything to contribute to his being revealed. We consider it bad for and unacceptable when people force emote other characters into doing something; this situation essentially forces a character not to be hidden not because of their own choice and not because of anything justifiable that's happened in the IG world.
Last edited by Brian on Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby Matt » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:43 pm

Way I see it... when someone's close by IRL and is looking at you you can kinda feel it. Spam searching is not alright though and a timer on search would probably be the best solution.

You have searched here to recently, you did not notice anything!
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby Melkor » Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:11 am

Matt wrote:Way I see it... when someone's close by IRL and is looking at you you can kinda feel it. Spam searching is not alright though and a timer on search would probably be the best solution.

You have searched here to recently, you did not notice anything!


This would work, as long as the timer only limits your ability to spot PC's/NPC's. More than half the time I'm using search, it's for looking for hidden objects, like arrows and it usually takes more than one search to uncover everything.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby cfelch » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:35 am

Don't forget the hidden objects when the system suddenly forgets who hid it to begin with.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby EltanimRas » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:47 pm

Finding every single arrow in a [supposed] square mile of forest probably ought to take some looking. :P
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby cfelch » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:13 pm

There is too much randomness involved in the equation perhaps?

I would do something like:

X = Hiding skill
Y = Observation skill
Z = situational bonuses (armor, time, terrain, etc)

onHide()
this.threshHold = X + Z

onSearch()
revealed = Y + Z
forall(hiddenObjects)
if revealed > this.threshhold
flag as me.visible
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby Melkor » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:47 pm

EltanimRas wrote:Finding every single arrow in a [supposed] square mile of forest probably ought to take some looking. :P


It should also take a long time to travel across, but we suspend disbelief for playability quite often.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby EltanimRas » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:07 am

So we do. Remind me again what the playability benefit of a single pc spam-finding every single arrow was?
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby Melkor » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:27 am

Not having to stand in a room forever waiting on a search timer so you can find the arrow you just shot.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby cfelch » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:53 am

I have to agree that being able to find every arrow you shoot in the forest is not a reasonable expectation.

But that in no way changes how broken the hiding system currently is.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby Melkor » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:29 pm

And you can't. The code accounts for this by making some of them simply get lost for good. Now back to the point.

A search timer would work good, as long as it only hinders your ability to search for NPCs/PCs.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby cfelch » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:34 pm

With my method there is no point in a timer or spamming for that matter.
Unless some contributing factors change, there would be no difference in the results.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby tehkory » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:58 pm

cfelch wrote:With my method there is no point in a timer or spamming for that matter.
Unless some contributing factors change, there would be no difference in the results.

I'm not certain how much sense this makes. It sounds confusing, mystical, and vaguely gnostic.

From what you're saying, I'm getting that you think or know that if a timer was implemented to search, it would be pointless. Either with explaining your method, or without, could you give us all a second and explain why what otherwise seems like a good change would be 'pointless'?
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby cfelch » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:26 pm

The more I think about it the more i am thinking that finding a living thing should more be tracking than just searching anyway.
Same command, just additional output for clues.

And while we are at it... what about the first five?
I would like to see smells, textures and sounds used more.
We have taste and sight pretty well (though i would like to be able to taste non-edibles as well) covered.
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Re: Sixth sense

Postby cfelch » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:30 pm

Ahh, my method was about having more or less static value comparisons.
Unless you stay there till one of variables changes in your favor.
For example...
You spam search until your skill goes up and gives you a better base score to work with.
You stay there until night turns to day (or vise versa) and you visual acuity improves.
...or until the target makes a sound or otherwise slips up and actually does reveal themselves.
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