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The great wishlist

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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Eru » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:26 am

tehkory wrote:This is a pretty poor suggestion from an Alpha player. As long as people are revived from clear bugs(and that policy exists, somewhat) whenever possible, the balance of the game needs fiddled with. Trolls in particular should not be 'lol let's throw more at them' opponents, but rare and incredibly difficult-to-kill(if not difficult to chase off or escape from). It's a poor game solution, and terribly bad at the simulation/narrative perspective.


They weren't revived before when tweaks were being made and they won't be now because dying to wildlife is not considered a bug nor is it a means to request a rez. That being said, if the strongest group of combat PC's currently in-game have no trouble fighting a troll, why would you make it invincible or unescapable ( 8-) ) for the rest of the pbase or a smaller group? I think fighting a pair or group of trolls is much more narrative and interesting than just one, who only five PC's can engage anyways while the rest sit back and twiddle their thumbs.
Last edited by Eru on Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Letters » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:23 pm

I've only been skimming the forums, but you guys are making some odd assumptions about people who played leadership characters extensively on Atonement (or the few months of Parallel). I'm pretty sure most of them aren't playing new SoI. Matt, maybe? Kory's primary function at the moment appears to be forum lurking, but maybe not. I know I'm not playing. I don't recognise anyone else here who I know played leadership PCs in the past. My own of any consequence were Eothelm, Elizabeth, Bet and James (Morrow), across three MUDs. I often just grabbed anyone and everyone in sight to go fight stuff or explore or whatever, and some people hated that. Enough people kept joining in that I kept doing it though - and some people hated the 20 to 25 person crews.

Currently not playing and not likely to get back to playing for a stack of reasons, though the biggest is probably that I just don't feel like a setting with two violently opposed settlements 40 rooms from each other.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Gobbo » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:23 pm

Letters wrote:I've only been skimming the forums, but you guys are making some odd assumptions about people who played leadership characters extensively on Atonement (or the few months of Parallel). I'm pretty sure most of them aren't playing new SoI. Matt, maybe? Kory's primary function at the moment appears to be forum lurking, but maybe not. I know I'm not playing. I don't recognise anyone else here who I know played leadership PCs in the past. My own of any consequence were Eothelm, Elizabeth, Bet and James (Morrow), across three MUDs. I often just grabbed anyone and everyone in sight to go fight stuff or explore or whatever, and some people hated that. Enough people kept joining in that I kept doing it though - and some people hated the 20 to 25 person crews.

Currently not playing and not likely to get back to playing for a stack of reasons, though the biggest is probably that I just don't feel like a setting with two violently opposed settlements 40 rooms from each other.



I agree 40 rooms is too far to travel :lol:
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby tehkory » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:35 pm

Letters wrote:I've only been skimming the forums, but you guys are making some odd assumptions about people who played leadership characters extensively on Atonement (or the few months of Parallel). I'm pretty sure most of them aren't playing new SoI. Matt, maybe? Kory's primary function at the moment appears to be forum lurking, but maybe not. I know I'm not playing. I don't recognise anyone else here who I know played leadership PCs in the past.

Pretty much. The change of the guard happened, amusingly. Though I've upgraded my membership from forum lurking to game lurking.
Eru wrote:
tehkory wrote:This is a pretty poor suggestion from an Alpha player. As long as people are revived from clear bugs(and that policy exists, somewhat) whenever possible, the balance of the game needs fiddled with. Trolls in particular should not be 'lol let's throw more at them' opponents, but rare and incredibly difficult-to-kill(if not difficult to chase off or escape from). It's a poor game solution, and terribly bad at the simulation/narrative perspective.


They weren't revived before when tweaks were being made and they won't be now because dying to wildlife is not considered a bug nor is it a means to request a rez. That being said, if the strongest group of combat PC's currently in-game have no trouble fighting a troll, why would you make it invincible or inescapable for the rest of the pbase or a smaller group? I think fighting a pair or group of trolls is much more narrative and interesting than just one, who only five PC's can engage anyways while the rest sit back and twiddle their thumbs.

Wildlife tweaks aren't bugs, fortunately, yes. But the problem is you just aren't reading what I'm saying, then responding; you're writing what you wish I was saying, so that it'd be easier to say what you want.

I'd agree, yeah, more, weaker enemies is great. Letting everyone do something is awesome. But fighting a troll -easily- is something that just makes the game a joke. It's, 'oh, another troll. Pfft. We don't have to be afraid, or smart, or anything.' The strongest PCs in-game should be able to take a troll...with difficulty. Not 'without anybody in the fight taking more than a moderate or anybody going below 5 stars,' IIRC. Certainly correctly on the first matter, and 70% sure on the second.

That's what we're discussing here, Eru. We're not discussing 'a group of six PCs went out, battled a troll, and after a struggle and some risk overcame it.' We're discussing 'a group of six PCs went out, two did nothing, and four beat it without batting an eyelash.' That's too weak for a troll. Managing to lay grievous wounds on a troll is likely too much, short of an eyeball hit. Managing to lay moderates to other areas above the neck is equally bad. It should have higher AC, and probably a bit higher strength. That's a bit of balance that needs adjusted. Skill-wise, I'd say it's probably good enough(or a bit too good!). I'd say making them immune to bleeders would be good, given the thickness of their hide/how good bleeders/arrows become against high-AC targets.

I'm not arguing it should be invincible, or unescapable. Damage doesn't work like that, and how UNESCAPABLE it should be lies solely in the hands of the animator. I'm just saying greater costs are required for engaging one, when either attempting--attempting needs to be the word here, not guaranteeing--a kill, or making good an escape.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Eru » Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:58 pm

You quoted post suggested people would get revived as the balance of the game and/or wildlife was tweaked and I disagreed, that's all. Apologies if that was not your intended point.

Regardless I agree with your latest statement after revealing the particulars of the situation I was unaware of and you're right, it shouldn't be easy to take down a troll or even a group of them without great cost to those that engage them. That being said, after tonight I think it's safe to say their damage and health pool have been beefed up appropriately. This doesn't mean wildlife should be beefed up across the board, which was my original point.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Icarus » Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:10 pm

Nothing like squishy humans to help balance out the mobiles.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Jarlhen » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:50 am

Matt wrote:I'd be very very very very very very very surprised to see that log. Bears are no joke.


I'll get you a log when I see it again. But I've seen it several times. I've recently been part of it on a new character where I did literally nothing. Didn't hit the bear a single time. The other character did it all themselves. As someone said previously, this was from the hunting craft. And last I checked, those are bears as well.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Droll » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:07 am

The hunting craft bears are (were? it's been a while) a lot weaker than the wandering mobs. Like, a lot.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Mithrandur » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:00 am

Droll wrote:The hunting craft bears are (were? it's been a while) a lot weaker than the wandering mobs. Like, a lot.


Which would make sense. Though I'm all for Icarus bringing back homing bears from the first week of Druadan forest in old SoI. Those were the days. Step one toe into the woods and within 5 minutes you'd have 2 or 3 bears already ready to greet you.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Jarlhen » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:50 am

Mithrandur wrote:
Droll wrote:The hunting craft bears are (were? it's been a while) a lot weaker than the wandering mobs. Like, a lot.


Which would make sense. Though I'm all for Icarus bringing back homing bears from the first week of Druadan forest in old SoI. Those were the days. Step one toe into the woods and within 5 minutes you'd have 2 or 3 bears already ready to greet you.


I'm not if I agree that it makes sense. I mean it's a bear. A big ol' bear, producing the same pelt and meat as the even bigger and meaner bear. I would also prefer not to have the murderous homing bears of Druadan :P
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Eru » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:55 am

Trogs then?
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Brian » Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:34 am

Jarlhen wrote:
Mithrandur wrote:
Droll wrote:The hunting craft bears are (were? it's been a while) a lot weaker than the wandering mobs. Like, a lot.


Which would make sense. Though I'm all for Icarus bringing back homing bears from the first week of Druadan forest in old SoI. Those were the days. Step one toe into the woods and within 5 minutes you'd have 2 or 3 bears already ready to greet you.


I'm not if I agree that it makes sense. I mean it's a bear. A big ol' bear, producing the same pelt and meat as the even bigger and meaner bear. I would also prefer not to have the murderous homing bears of Druadan :P


Perhaps the bears produced by the hunting crafts are black bears, and the wandering mobs are grizzly bears? Having been up close and personal with a black bear (like I rode my bike past a black bear that was two meters off the cycling path eating berries off a bush) they are surprisingly small. That isn't to say they aren't strong, but they're smaller than you think of when you think of a bear.

I haven't been that close to a grizzly, but I've been in easy visual viewing distance (like twenty to thirty meters) and they're a whole different ballgame. They're HUGE and they look MEAN. They look at least one and a half, if not two times larger than a black bear, which they are in terms of weight, as the average black bear weighs 150-300 pounds and the average grizzly weighs up to 300-500 pounds for females and 400-800 for males(and they can get up to 1,500 pounds!!). It's a significant difference.

TLDR: The hunting craft produces black bears, the wandering mobs are pissed off grizzly bears.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Jarlhen » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:39 am

I'm not sure if those averages are entirely correct, I believe the highest 'normal' range for black bear is higher than the lowest range for grizzly. But regardless, if there is such a distinction then it should be made clear not only in the description but also in the yield. It seems a bit unfair if you can produce a bear through a craft that's easy to kill that gives the same pelt as a bear that's hard to kill and you have to find. Right? Or is that distinction made already? Haven't had the pleasure of murdering the more dangerous kind.

I'm pretty sure there was such a distinction back in the Nlands. I believe there were grizzly's in Nlands and other types of bear in MT. Correct me if I'm wrong. But I do believe we made grizzly pelts different from the other bear pelts.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Tykanis » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:19 pm

Matt I would gladly give you logs of me one manning a giant bear dualwielding longknives if I still had the logs. I sadly have a new laptop (didn't realize the drastic difference between XP and windows 7 software either) and cannot find the logs. Once and if I can find the logs I will gladly supply them. Also as far as knives being the worst weapon in the game, what weapons are good and bad totally depend on your stats from what I have noticed as I could beat a master long-blade user to a standstill just saying.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Songweaver » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:53 pm

Dual-wielded knives are actually pretty potent against most wildlife. Given the right build, dual-wielded knives are actually one of the most potent melee strategies in the current SOI PvE environment.

If anyone solo'd a mega-bear in melee, without first injuring it with ranged attacks and letting it bleed down, that happened because they were very, very lucky.

I don't think the answer is in making the wildlife more dangerous. It's in introducing dangerous plots, with dangerous adversaries, and then partly automating those plots so that the threats persist even when RPAs aren't available.

Alcarin and Fulgrim actually did this rather well, once (with the original Spider infestation plot), but it's otherwise been a persistent issue with this incarnation of SOI3. Even if there aren't any clans with the same power level of some of the SOI3 clans from last year, there's still nothing scary about the woods beyond the PVP opposition.

IMO, Mirkwood should be a fantasy horror setting, to an extent. It should be a scarier forest than Northlands' was, than the Druadan was, than Ithilien was. Right now, it's about on par with Ithilien (at its least active) in terms of scariness.

Most RPIs' problems can be minimalized when good writing, consistent and meaningful plot allow characters to make meaningful impacts on the world and the overarching story. Bugs, empty craft-suites, non-interactive building, and other issues seem less important when the players have an excellent story that they can become a part of.

And, as over half of the players that play RPIs prefer to play combat-oriented characters (as evidenced by other RPIs), a dangerous and challenging combat environment is paramount to that. SOI's playerbase is heavier on the non-combatant side of things because it just isn't successfully appealing to the combat players, at large.


ETA!

Letters wrote:I've only been skimming the forums, but you guys are making some odd assumptions about people who played leadership characters extensively on Atonement (or the few months of Parallel). I'm pretty sure most of them aren't playing new SoI. Matt, maybe? Kory's primary function at the moment appears to be forum lurking, but maybe not. I know I'm not playing. I don't recognise anyone else here who I know played leadership PCs in the past.


There are players in leadership positions now (and more, last year) that were regular PC leaders on other RPIs. It is true, however, that there aren't many Atonement players that are currently playing SOI any longer, that I'm aware of. This probably has a lot to do with what I wrote about above.

My own of any consequence were Eothelm, Elizabeth, Bet and James (Morrow), across three MUDs. I often just grabbed anyone and everyone in sight to go fight stuff or explore or whatever, and some people hated that. Enough people kept joining in that I kept doing it though - and some people hated the 20 to 25 person crews.


20 to 25 person crews can be fun if they are managed well, and the leader(s) help inspire those other players to slow down and take their time and roleplay immersively. They tend to become unbearable when they are nothing more than running around and spamming forage/commands without meaningful roleplay.

We did have a two-day battle against the spiders north of Utterby last year with a massive group that I think was very successful in terms of pacing, fun and quality of roleplay. If we'd just been picking berries, and half of the players were playing DOTA at the same time because there was no interesting character play happening, it would have been unbearable.

Managing large groups of people well is very difficult.

Currently not playing and not likely to get back to playing for a stack of reasons, though the biggest is probably that I just don't feel like a setting with two violently opposed settlements 40 rooms from each other.


I'm not a huge fan of the two sphere design, after trying it a few different ways. That said, it can work at a higher level than it currently does for SOI3; doing so would demand flexible objectives for both spheres, though. Right now, beyond getting caught out in the wilderness while foraging or hunting, there is no threat that either side could actually affect the other in a major way. The orcs will never raid the town, and the town will probably never raid Vadok Mal again. This is a pretty normal issue for the two-sphere setup in RPIs, because there is often an inherent staff desire to want to protect non-combatants and not destroy what they've built. While I understand the instinct to have that protection, I do think that it can sometimes do a disservice to the players.

Without any true risk of complete destruction, there is never any true opportunity to become a true hero (or conqueror). Without any true risk of long-term, meaningful consequences, there is never any true opportunity for players to become a part of (in this case) Tolkien's greater legend.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Real » Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:20 am

This is pretty random, but if there was a prog in Striza's Rudder where you could trade either rough, bog-iron shortswords or cave orc/goblin heads for 2 cp it would probably declutter the mines a lot and make a sort of bounty system to tie in with the new meat buyer.

Or, we could melt them into bog-iron ingots with a prog or craft.

Best of all would be if the slaver had a prog that would eat subdued cave goblins/orcs and pay you for them.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Ceredir » Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:15 am

Hmm. That slaver idea just reminded me of the arena beastmaster prog I made for Egthela.

I'll ponder this and see what other admins think.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Gobbo » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:44 pm

I was just thinking about how cool it would be to have a class perk system. For example once you hit adroit in a skill you can pick from a small selection of perks for that skill. Perhaps you can only do it for one skill on a character or once for each adroit skill.

Ex.

Polearm perks:

Spear hunter: Bonus damage against beast and improved accuracy against animals.

Line soldier: Hit harder and more accurately when not being attacked, such as when you have a shield man.

Bracing: Have a chance of planting your spear to meet an attack, doing high damage to your attacker.

Hiding perks:

Ambusher: Almost perfect chance to successfully ambush.

Hide-and-seek: Become much harder to search out when hiding.

Stealth sniper: Roll against hide when shooting a bow when hidden, have a chance not to be revealed.

Armorer perks:

Leather maker: Focused on making the best most improved leather armor.

Metalworker: Make the best most improved metal armors.

Mass producer: Reduce OOC timers for creating armors.

With perks we could specialize our characters into niche. No two crafters would have to be equal, some could be better at some things than others of the same professions. It also would allow combatants to specialize too, for pve or pvp.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby radioactivejesus » Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:49 pm

Real wrote:This is pretty random, but if there was a prog in Striza's Rudder where you could trade either rough, bog-iron shortswords or cave orc/goblin heads for 2 cp it would probably declutter the mines a lot and make a sort of bounty system to tie in with the new meat buyer.

Or, we could melt them into bog-iron ingots with a prog or craft.

Best of all would be if the slaver had a prog that would eat subdued cave goblins/orcs and pay you for them.

actually just sent a pm with a similar idea a while ago. This would be great, because it actually gives people a concrete reason to go to the mines and fight aside from just getting the joy of killing stuff. Would also be great if the game kept track of how many slaves were brought in, and added them to the Vadok Ushtarak's VNPC counter. Then later on down the road, there could be some fancy events where the slaves are put to use.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Melkor » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:43 pm

You know what would make playing this game a crap ton easier and (probably) be easy to implement? Three <worn on belt> slots! Please make this happen.

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Re: The great wishlist

Postby cfelch » Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:03 pm

Why stop at 3?
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Melkor » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:20 pm

Yes, exactly. I am sure with very little trouble I could easily get a dozen or so items on my belt. Asking for three isn't much. :P
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby ThinkTwice » Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:46 am

I'd like the amount of magic, mysticism, and mystery to be increased in the game. I don't really care about across the board monster balance, economy changes, or fold baby-clothes crafts; I'm really interested in the plot of this roleplay intensive MUD. The other stuff is nice, I suppose, but if I wanted an interesting economy and a great combat system, I'd go play EVE Online or any of the other knock-offs. Specifically, magic and abilities in player hands.

Also, roles above 2 RPP.
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Re: The great wishlist

Postby Brian » Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:46 am

Hey ThinkTwice, this is the wishlist so I'm not going to post anything here but I think I'm going to start a thread about this very thing using your post as a jumping off point :)
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