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What do you think about hunting?

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What do you think about hunting?

Postby Gobbo » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:35 am

I've been playing a hunter for a bit and I've seen other hunters do the same things. I find hunting is realllllly powerful.

Tracking is a must in pvp situations which makes hunting potent alone.

However the crafts make hunting really strong, a hunter can go out and grab a couple bears and bucks in a RL day. There is no shortage of meat and the hides roll in very steadily. The timers are pretty short.

I believe that hunting could use a change, either fundamentally where most of the crafts that produce creatures are removed and these creatures spawn naturally in the game world so you have to track them down like a real hunter.

Or change it slightly where timers are massively increased so you can only grab one valuable game a day to stem the over-saturation of everything.

What are your thoughts on hunting, does anyone prefer it this way?
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Matt » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:18 am

I don't like that there's a craft that spawns weak bears that give you pelts and meat like a usual one.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Jarlhen » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:36 am

The hunting crafts cannot be changed without a fundamental change in animal behavior, spawning as well as some alterations to skills. Currently you can produce 4 stags per 24 hours (360 minutes per stag or 6 hours). That's 40 cp not counting the meat, which you normally can't sell anyhow. To me, that's not a lot of money considering that a drink at the tavern goes for like 5 cp.

If you want to change the hunting system you need to do so fundamentally. It would take some time and a fair bit of planning on the admin side. Things to consider include:

Abundance of animals - How many hunters should reasonably be active at any one time and have success?
Size of hunting area - Utterby "safe" zone is small. Should hunters have to head outside of this zone?
Dangers of hunting area - Has to do with the size reall.
Types of animals - Including more "exotic" things like the old black fox.
Changes to hunting crafts - Should the timer be a lockout for instance?
Value of total animal - Is 4 cp for a boar really reasonable?
Search/hide - The lack of search/hide makes it extremely difficult to find a deer. Reasonable? Or should thing like this change?
Animal behavior - Been discussed before. But essentially the more aggro or non-flee animals you have the less it encourages hunting and the more it encourages soldiering.

Just to mention a few things.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby radioactivejesus » Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:30 pm

to balance hunting to make it a viable trade in utterby, aggro creatures could just be wolves, wargs, spiders and various other things where their meat and furs are near worthless to humans. This would prevent the common occurrence of getting all the meat and furs you need to support your crafters every time your soldiers go on patrol, and meat/pelts would once again become rare enough to be worth money. In real life, a deer pelt can be worth $100 upwards in some areas. The big downside I see to this thought, is that since orcs have no cultural issues with making use of evil creatures, making all other animals but them require a hunter to catch would give the bad guys an unfair advantage in resource gathering.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Dirgs » Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:44 pm

What if common aggro animals (boar, wolf, warg) yielded lower quality leather etc than non-aggo (deer, fox...), or high-end aggro (big bear, big boar)? On top of that, what if the highest quality materials came from Hunting crafts with very long timers and high skill checks?

That would make Hunting skill still very valuable, allow non-hunting skill people hunt (but give those able to track a distinct advantage), and make soldier patrols much less efficient source of materials...?

Just brainstorming here...
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Jarlhen » Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:51 pm

Or just make boars behave like deer without the hiding part. It's absolutely not unrealistic. Wolves and wargs are useless for Utterby already. The big bears are rarely taken down. There's a few guards that go out and use the hunting crafts to take down bears and other animals.

My biggest issue is really the deer behavior. I'm killing stags now as it's super easy. To me they should behave like regular deers as it pretty much forces people to use track/ranged weapons to put them down. It puts them in the hunters realm. Problem with deer is that either their hide skill is insanely high or the lack of scan/search as skills are causing them to be damn near invisible. There needs to be a balance there.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby radioactivejesus » Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:53 pm

it's already possible for the variables in material type to modify an items durability, weight and deflect boosts (Though armour deflect boost is still broken, I believe). I think staff should make it so that there is really high end leather that gives durability or weight modifiers on par with refined iron and steel, but have it so that the creatures that bear it are never found naturally, only with high level hunting crafts. It might also be possible to grand larger hide and sneak bonuses for certain types of leather.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Matt » Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:12 pm

It's already like that really. Humans only use deer/bear/boar hides from what I can see. I think that's a pretty fair advantage for orcs to have.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Icarus » Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:25 pm

There's a bug with sneaky mobiles that when they sneak after a reveal they dont leave tracks. Or something like that. Cer can explain. I might put him in charge of the wilderness overhaul.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Jarlhen » Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:35 pm

Icarus wrote:There's a bug with sneaky mobiles that when they sneak after a reveal they dont leave tracks. Or something like that. Cer can explain. I might put him in charge of the wilderness overhaul.


I hadn't really noticed that. To me the problem is that they're virtually impossible to find! Much, much, more difficult than old SoI. And old SoI, before you had uber l33t skills, it took 30 minutes-2 hours (RL) to hunt one down. Though to be fair, that includes the time for actually finding a naturally spawning mob to hunt. With comparable skill in Mirkwood it has taken me from dawn to dusk to find one. Most of the time I'm not even successful as it's not possible to find them.

Stags have made this way of hunting obsolete though. No point in hunting sneaky mobiles when you've got stags. One way to balance it would be make sneaky mobiles easier to find, lower the timer on the crafts for such mobiles. Would make it more appealing to do some "proper" hunting.

Ideally sneaky mobiles would be easier to find and stags made non-aggro. But that's just me! Others may disagree with this.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Ceredir » Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:46 pm

We currently have a rather annoying bug that makes (edit to elaborate:) certain mobs move completely invisibly when they try to sneak, even if they fail their Sneak roll. You can find them fairly easily via search, but you never know when they enter/leave, which they tend to do quite frequently. I've been watching a few players struggle trying to catch a doe, and it usually ends up with them spamming search in an empty room.

I took the sneak flag off deer a few weeks back, then had players complaining that they're now too easy. So I put it back on. There is currently no happy medium, really. I -could- script them to sneak instead, it is actually fairly easy, but it will be never be as smooth as letting code handle it. Duh.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Jarlhen » Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:51 pm

Ceredir wrote:We currently have a rather annoying bug that makes mobs move completely invisibly when they try to sneak, even if they fail their Sneak roll. You can find them fairly easily via search, but you never know when they enter/leave, which they tend to do quite frequently. I've been watching a few players struggle trying to catch a doe, and it usually ends up with them spamming search in an empty room.

I took the sneak flag off deer a few weeks back, then had players complaining that they're now too easy. So I put it back on. There is currently no happy medium, really. I -could- script them to sneak instead, it is actually fairly easy, but it will be never be as smooth as letting code handle it. Duh.


Ooh I see, that makes more sense then. Can this bug be fixed or is it one of those impossibly impossible ones? I guess, right now it's not a huge deal as flushing stags is still more efficient :P But still, bad bug, can it be fixed?
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Gobbo » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:41 pm

1+ for exotic types of animals. Whenever I see fox tracks I giggle and go for a real hunt.

I don't have the stag craft yet but I can spawn bucks, if I miss my first shot after spawning a buck I can track a buck for hours till I get another shot at it. Once I get the stag craft it will make that obsolete.

I'd actually love to see some sort of exotic animal spawn in dangerous areas like the bog and far north woods. Something that sneaks and auto flees. Something that you need to track but the hide is top of the line for armor. Make it a risk vs reward thing.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Mithrandur » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:27 pm

Gobbo wrote:1+ for exotic types of animals. Whenever I see fox tracks I giggle and go for a real hunt.

I don't have the stag craft yet but I can spawn bucks, if I miss my first shot after spawning a buck I can track a buck for hours till I get another shot at it. Once I get the stag craft it will make that obsolete.

I'd actually love to see some sort of exotic animal spawn in dangerous areas like the bog and far north woods. Something that sneaks and auto flees. Something that you need to track but the hide is top of the line for armor. Make it a risk vs reward thing.


You should have seen Mirkwood's wildlife at the start of the game. If you think things were dangerous now.. Actually

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing some of the old wildlife brought back actually. Snakes, the occasional spider. Badgers. Just something to vary the woods a bit instead of seeing the same-old, same-old.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby tehkory » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:16 pm

It's a lot harder to have hunting based around the game loading mobs for you. It's waaaaaaay easier to have hunting based around crafts. Balance around what a player can do and you don't have to balance around how many players you have.

That said, quantity/ease could probably be lowered in either case, but it's not the hugest of problems. Best bet would definitely to be significantly increasing the timers all around. I'd double rabbit/squirrel/pheasant timers at the least. I've had success playing a hunter like Gobbo describes in the first post. I've probably crafted all of twice on this current PC, and hunting's earned me the majority of my money.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Jarlhen » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:10 am

I still don't see how 40cp per 24 RL hours is a major issue. Currently Utterby is suffering from a lack of pelts for the leatherworkers. So unless we get about a dozen more hunters cranking up the OOC timer will only mean even less work for the crafters. Currently that, to me, seems like a bad idea. I have it on good authority that hides/pelts are note loaded up by the admins. It's exclusively PC produced. Without significantly altering the hunting system I think it's a bit not-so-good to begin altering timers.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Melkor » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:09 am

I think the timers are fine. 6 hours for a stag means you can get 4 in one real life day, which is four game days. A hunter bringing in one stag per game day doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

Now increasing the smaller timers like rabbits, squirrels and whatnot might be alright, but I don't think that's really necessary either as they aren't very profitable.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Songweaver » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:17 am

One thing that I've always wanted to see, for hunting, are the effects of overhunting and species migration.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Ceredir » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:20 am

We do actually have a system that is capable of simulating overhunting of a specific mob type. We are slowly introducing it into the game (the non aggro animals in Mirkwood are a part of this system).

Migration... would be doable but not sure how well it would work considering the size of the world. Or did you mean just changing the types/numbers of animals depending on season?
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Songweaver » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:22 am

I meant that if you overhunt around Utterby, the mobs that you hunt (through spawning or crafting) would stop existing (or/and reduce in frequency) around there and move deeper into the forest. If I were going to handle overhunting, I'd probably split the map into regions, and let the spawnrate/crafting-allowance of mobs in one region grow dynamically when overhunting takes place in surrounding regions.

I'd also consider that a large population of alpha hunter wildlife in a region might have an effect on wildlife that could be considered their 'prey', in much the same way.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Ceredir » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:36 am

We're on the same page, then.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Brian » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:28 pm

This sounds cool, I love this kind of stuff :)
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Jarlhen » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:12 pm

I like these things. But without a proper economic system in place it probably won't work great. For instance, right now Utterby is entirely reliant on hunters for leather. And the hunters are entirely dependent on hunting crafts to acquire said leather. Meat is worth pretty much nothing. A pelt is worth something.

You make hunting more difficult and more time consuming it means that the value of the animal needs to go up. It also means that there'll be an even greater shortage of crafting material. I'm not necessarily opposed to that, I like hunting and I like earning money :D However, these things are important to keep in mind. I mean, if you have two hunters trying to supply the entirety of Utterby with hides, those two hunters would probably become the wealthiest people in Utterby pretty soon.

However, since stags are auto aggro and boars as well, it means the hunters are pretty much wasting time actually hunting. It's far more efficient to just produce aggro animals and kill them. So really, overhunting in its current state would still mean that the best way of hunting is being a warrior. I guess overhunting wouldn't attempt to cope with that, I'm just saying it wouldn't actually change hunting much.

Furthermore, when is an area overhunted? Let's take a real world example. Buffalo county, Wisconsin, is estimated to be home to 37,000 deer. That's 37,000 deer over 672 square miles of land. So that's 55 deer per square mile. I have no idea how large our areas are. I'm just giving you an example here to illustrate that these things should be taken in to account. A somewhat semi-realistic model for the number of deer in any given area.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Siradril » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:29 pm

I'm a bit conflicted on this matter honestly, perhaps it is the twink in me. However when it was suggested that the craft timers were increased big time, I did not like the idea. As it stands spawning a bear or a boar will take 12 hour ooc delay timer. Like in 1 Real day if you are not a skilled hunter baiting bear, you can at most spawn 1 bear. 2 if you have lots of pheasant corpses beforehand.

However on another side I realized the amount of corpses we've been bringing back to Utterby as well. It's not little, it's rather a lot. To the point where I have started feeling like, maybe we should stop flushing this or that for today.(Setting up limitations on my own head to stop flushing even though I have a good amount of timer still)

I can also say that my character is not driven by the gold they produce, more so that we have need for the leathers.

At any rate when I think of the alternatives the only thing that pops to my mind is not really mitigration but more so making crafts harder.

Say there arae supposedly 100 stags in the nearby area of Utterby. If you see hunters taking down 50 stags in perhaps 2 weeks? (3.5 RL days) Then have the flush stag level modifier increase from Familiar to Talented. When the stag numbers drop from 50 to 40 increase it to Adroit, to Master.

As in make it harder to actually be successful in the craft as opposed to increasing the timers. I also disagree with the whole emphasis on warriors vs archers(?). I personally don't have bow skill so I have started hunting via throw spear, which to me is a viable RP method to hunt with. The real problem is as I was one of the players Ceredor mentioned. With the sneak code broken as it is, there really is no way for me to track down hidden-sneaking npcs while I track them down. So once I throw my spear if I don't score a bleeder, well shit... Odds are that particular npc is gone. I've tried doing this 4 times to come to a decision such as this. And trust me I tried tactics some of you wouldn't even think about or most of you would laugh at if you noticed.

The only other two things I can say about hunting in general is that the timers set on some crafts don't add up. Boars give medium sized leathers yet both boar crafts has 12 hour timer. Bear has large hide, has 12 hour timer. Stags, bucks are deers codedly and have large hide yet they have 6 hour timer. If we are talking about the food it offers, then I'd also assume that deers and boars are in high demand, yet the former still has 6 hour timer.

And finally I don't think that hunting rabbits is that profitable. You need to take into consideration that you need a twine to hunt down rabbits. Which gives 5 lines. So 1 coin for 1 line. If you are hunting via throwing pointy things, then you are in luck for you may kill the rabbit. If you are using arrows and don't happen to be Legolas? Well you will lose some arrows. So overall I don't see hunting rabbits that profitable so don't bother increasing their timers it'd only make it harder for new hunters to train. Mostly because everyone seems to forget that we cannot skin corpses with 100% success.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby tehkory » Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:27 pm

As an aside, craft-timers are never 'exactly' what they say they are. The craft-timers represent zero skill, and then decrease rapidly as you increase in skill. I think Adroit dropped it by 2/3rds, last I remembered, but it's been a while. Someone else can say for sure. By the time you get to X hour timers...they aren't that long anymore.
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