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What do you think about hunting?

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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Mithrandur » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:13 pm

Jarlhen wrote:I like these things. But without a proper economic system in place it probably won't work great. For instance, right now Utterby is entirely reliant on hunters for leather. And the hunters are entirely dependent on hunting crafts to acquire said leather. Meat is worth pretty much nothing. A pelt is worth something.

You make hunting more difficult and more time consuming it means that the value of the animal needs to go up. It also means that there'll be an even greater shortage of crafting material. I'm not necessarily opposed to that, I like hunting and I like earning money :D However, these things are important to keep in mind. I mean, if you have two hunters trying to supply the entirety of Utterby with hides, those two hunters would probably become the wealthiest people in Utterby pretty soon.


I wouldn't say there's a huge shortage of pelts presently, the problem with Utterby is more a huge shortage of people who can -work- the pelts. That's what Utterby needs more than anything. Also, if anything, the price of pelts already makes hunters one of the most profitable professions out there, believe it or not. ;)

I mean, when you take into consideration 4 deer a rl day isn't bad when you compare it to:

26 craft hours for a suit of Oiled leathers (not including morph timers)
40 craft hours for a decent unhoned weapon. (52 if honed)
87 craft hours for a full suit of maille
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Mithrandur » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:15 pm

tehkory wrote:As an aside, craft-timers are never 'exactly' what they say they are. The craft-timers represent zero skill, and then decrease rapidly as you increase in skill. I think Adroit dropped it by 2/3rds, last I remembered, but it's been a while. Someone else can say for sure. By the time you get to X hour timers...they aren't that long anymore.


As for this, talented/adroit seems to drop the timer by roughly 25%
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby tehkory » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:40 pm

Mithrandur wrote:
I mean, when you take into consideration 4 deer a rl day isn't bad when you compare it to:

26 craft hours for a suit of Oiled leathers (not including morph timers)
40 craft hours for a decent unhoned weapon. (52 if honed)
87 craft hours for a full suit of maille

So a hunter produces 4 deer in a RL day. Does that equal exactly(or near-enough) the requirements for a full suit of leather? Is gathering imbalanced/weak if a single hunter/scavenger can't produce enough to keep a single crafter busy for that same period of time?
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Jarlhen » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:57 pm

Mithrandur wrote:
Jarlhen wrote:I like these things. But without a proper economic system in place it probably won't work great. For instance, right now Utterby is entirely reliant on hunters for leather. And the hunters are entirely dependent on hunting crafts to acquire said leather. Meat is worth pretty much nothing. A pelt is worth something.

You make hunting more difficult and more time consuming it means that the value of the animal needs to go up. It also means that there'll be an even greater shortage of crafting material. I'm not necessarily opposed to that, I like hunting and I like earning money :D However, these things are important to keep in mind. I mean, if you have two hunters trying to supply the entirety of Utterby with hides, those two hunters would probably become the wealthiest people in Utterby pretty soon.


I wouldn't say there's a huge shortage of pelts presently, the problem with Utterby is more a huge shortage of people who can -work- the pelts. That's what Utterby needs more than anything. Also, if anything, the price of pelts already makes hunters one of the most profitable professions out there, believe it or not. ;)

I mean, when you take into consideration 4 deer a rl day isn't bad when you compare it to:

26 craft hours for a suit of Oiled leathers (not including morph timers)
40 craft hours for a decent unhoned weapon. (52 if honed)
87 craft hours for a full suit of maille


Get me right here. I'm not disputing that hunting is profitable in the sense that you go out, kill something, you get back and get 2-10 copper straight away. To make 100 copper I need to kill 10 stags. So that's what, 40-50ish RL hours assuming some basic skills in hunting. A crafter can quite easily make that with one or two pieces of something. Assuming people aren't giving shit away for damn near free, which for some peculiar reason some people are.

Just look at the meat. A merchant buys a deer corpse for 5 copper and with only a bit of butchering they make it worth ten times more. And it'll sell to vNPCs.

And, I know numerous leathercrafters. I talk to them IG and I sell stuff directly to them. All of them are saying there's not enough hides. You might be right that there's not a shortage, this is just what I'm being told by them so that's what I'm going by. There does seem to be a shortage of people capable of doing the top tier stuff though. But as I understand it, part of that reason is that the lower tier people don't have access to all the pelts they need. But with every guardsman capable of hunting I'm not sure how right I am.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Mithrandur » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:02 am

Jarlhen wrote:
Mithrandur wrote:
Jarlhen wrote:I like these things. But without a proper economic system in place it probably won't work great. For instance, right now Utterby is entirely reliant on hunters for leather. And the hunters are entirely dependent on hunting crafts to acquire said leather. Meat is worth pretty much nothing. A pelt is worth something.

You make hunting more difficult and more time consuming it means that the value of the animal needs to go up. It also means that there'll be an even greater shortage of crafting material. I'm not necessarily opposed to that, I like hunting and I like earning money :D However, these things are important to keep in mind. I mean, if you have two hunters trying to supply the entirety of Utterby with hides, those two hunters would probably become the wealthiest people in Utterby pretty soon.


I wouldn't say there's a huge shortage of pelts presently, the problem with Utterby is more a huge shortage of people who can -work- the pelts. That's what Utterby needs more than anything. Also, if anything, the price of pelts already makes hunters one of the most profitable professions out there, believe it or not. ;)

I mean, when you take into consideration 4 deer a rl day isn't bad when you compare it to:

26 craft hours for a suit of Oiled leathers (not including morph timers)
40 craft hours for a decent unhoned weapon. (52 if honed)
87 craft hours for a full suit of maille


Get me right here. I'm not disputing that hunting is profitable in the sense that you go out, kill something, you get back and get 2-10 copper straight away. To make 100 copper I need to kill 10 stags. So that's what, 40-50ish RL hours assuming some basic skills in hunting. A crafter can quite easily make that with one or two pieces of something. Assuming people aren't giving shit away for damn near free, which for some peculiar reason some people are.

Just look at the meat. A merchant buys a deer corpse for 5 copper and with only a bit of butchering they make it worth ten times more. And it'll sell to vNPCs.

And, I know numerous leathercrafters. I talk to them IG and I sell stuff directly to them. All of them are saying there's not enough hides. You might be right that there's not a shortage, this is just what I'm being told by them so that's what I'm going by. There does seem to be a shortage of people capable of doing the top tier stuff though. But as I understand it, part of that reason is that the lower tier people don't have access to all the pelts they need. But with every guardsman capable of hunting I'm not sure how right I am.


Well, one problem is, with the majority of crafts, there is a material cost involved. Crafters do have to pay for those hides (reducing profits) and smiths have to pay a -ton- for iron, and grit/polish if they're to hone weapons. That's not to say some crafters -can't- make a ton of money, but some crafters charge such a low price on finished goods because they know the game market, and know that only a small handful of people have anything more than maybe a single gold at a time.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Gobbo » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:18 am

I heard the lodge was sitting on something like 30k copper. Material cost must not be that bad when npcs buy goods at a premium.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby Jarlhen » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:06 pm

I think, having pondered this a bit. I'd like to see the following changes to hunting.

1. Increase rate of natural game spawn.
2. Increase variety of game spawn.
3. Fix whatever the problem is that makes sneaking animals impossible to detect.
4. Make stags behave like other deer.
5. Make crafted bears be the equivalent of the berserker bears, or alter their yield.
5. Make all non-aggro game behave like deer, though the sneak/hide should be on a case by case basis.
6. And I will concede that this may not be possible nor easy, but it's a suggestion. Make hunting crafts not add to the timer. Instead, make them unable to use for the duration. So if you flush stag you can't use it again for another 5 or whatever hours.

This would, in my world, bring back the hunting to hunting. Most game would be there for people with hunting skills and ranged weapons. It would mean far less reliance on the hunting craft. However, someone with the skills would be able to reliably produce animals without it feeling like your entire hunting experience stands and falls with your OOC timer and how much you've branched.

Also, in this system your skills really matter. Not your branching, but your skills. Good hide/sneak/bow/track skills rewards you with significantly faster kills which in terms bumps up your profitability. And, if you set it up a bit cleverly, IG knowledge of the area will be rewarded by knowledge of where certain animals are more likely to appear.
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Re: What do you think about hunting?

Postby dogcatfish12 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:10 am

OhMan Something I actually did and can respond to, this like, never ever happens, I'm excite.

Firstly, all of my yes about the stags, it's so weird the way stags work that I pondered just not hunting them (that didn't work about because some IC stuff but eesh, my character was so not happy with having to stab the things eighty hundred and eleven times because they were super-brave berserker deer from the ninth circle)

Something to make stabbing things eighty-hundred and eleven times make them not as good would be nice to me, because if you're going to roll a hunter, roll a freakin' hunter and not an axe-wielding soldier-guy that for some reason hates all the wildlife that ever existed (and also because the more holes you put in something, the less valuable that something is, regardless of whatever it may be, except maybe like cheese graters or something but we're not making cheese graters here.)

I...personally never had a huge problem hunting deer :/ I was also pretty beastly with a bow so it wasn't often that I didn't have a very telling blood trail to follow. But that bug that apparently exists needs to die in a fire, it explains why I never could find the few I -did- miss, I just assumed they despawned or something (it was by some stroke of misfortune always right next to a crash)

Boars act weird to me. I dunno if that's been talked about. It's weird how aggressive they are. At one point sows would only attack if startled (I'm not sure if that's how the code actually worked, but it's how it seemed and it was so cool and real and I could RP around that instead of just sitting there confused because a -relatively- non-aggressive animal just charged me down for no clear reason) I would love for that again. Sure, make super mean giant-males again, I guess (though not the boar-missiles that put like eight hunters out of commission please, that was rough) but really, boars aren't particularly out for blood unless somehow startled or threatened, so if you walk in on one it could have a chance to be aggressive or just chill and leave you alone or something, but the straight-aggro is so -odd- to me.

Wolves are awesome, I like wolves, maybe make them sneak or something to be slightly more dangerous if they're alone? The packs are cool but a lone wolf isn't generally going to just rush out at you roaring from several miles away, they're -somewhat- sneaky little critters. Packs would probably too, but that would be just too much, from my reckoning just solo wolves being sneaky wouldn't be a huge problem unless you were unlucky as all heck.

The only thing I know of bears is that the crafted ones are somewhat easy, my lame-as-anything spear-guy just stabbed one to death with no damage (after a couple of featherings anyway >_> <_<)

overall I think hunting is -relatively- solid but could use a touch of tweaking for sure. And natural spawns again. I liked natural spawns. It feels so weird wandering around an empty forest and then OH LOOK EIGHT STAGS. Furry little woodland creatures aren't -all- ninjas -all- the time.
Are longbows working right? I never had issue hitting most things from up close, and the arrows, crappy wooden ones, would go straight through them, and that's biggish stuff like deer and wolves. people I see with shortbows and crossbows are missing and getting terrible little lame hits when I see them, maybe I'm just seeing only unlucky shots. (except stupid crap in the garden, I could never hit anything in the garden)
And mostly what someone else said, put the hunting back into hunting. Leave the crafts, tweak them as you see fit, but add some (possibly rare?) natural spawns. Sometimes you catch a windfall, it happens just as much as the bad stuff. Make them skittish so you have to sneak (though you should be already anyway), and such.

I'm not even gonna touch the economy stuff, I'm talking from a straight enjoyment-and-semi-realism perspective.

also yes to overhunting. I was -trying- to instill that in the beginning but no one went with it and I just had to give up so I could -keep- up. eight people each bringing in 4 stags a day -every- day of -every- season they'll respond to a rattle will cripple the size of the community in a -bad- way in such a tiny little area. Most people don't even get tags for that many in the -whole season- in RL, it's like 2-3 unless they're -way- into it. And maybe a doe. (People were usually pretty good about not just murdering every doe they saw though). Maybe just straight limit stags-per-season and make them more valuable or something? (I guess did -kind of- touch the economy stuff)
Sorry for the stream-of-conscious abomination I've got running here. And the length. I just got off an overnight shift and I'm running completely on energy drink high right now, I don't have the faculties to summarize neatly or organize.
That's all I've got for right now.
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