It is currently Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:18 pm
Change font size

General Discussion

Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevant?

Discuss game issues here.

Moderator: Elder Staff

Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevant?

Postby Brian » Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:00 pm

So currently, when you use the flee command you'll retreat out of combat one room in a random direction. After you've done that, anybody who was in the same combat with you and is free to come directly after you, and if they've got fast fingers and have their movement speed set higher than yours, can instantly re-engage with you.

My question is asking whether that's what we take fleeing to mean, or do we believe/want it to mean something different?

When I think of the command and how I would like it to be interpreted, I would want a successful use of flee to mean that you have actually escaped combat and the prospect of imminent re-engagement. If you're facing a determined player now who comes after you immediately and re-engages, you might have to flee across 10-20 rooms before you escape to any area of safety, and with the deadliness of combat now and the difficulty of fleeing sometimes very few are likely to beat those odds.

What I suggest is putting a timer on combat that doesn't allow you to move after you've been in combat without use of the flee command. I don't know if this is possible, but I know there is a timer on the camp command so that you can't use it right after being in combat. My ideal would be that if you flee from combat you'd be able to move immediately and actually escape. However, if you were in combat, you'd get a message if you tried to move immediately about how you had to wait X amount of time, just like you do with trying to camp after fighting. You'd still be able to use ranged weapons I suppose if you wanted to take pot shots at the fleeing person, which I'm ok with.

I feel that this change would make it so that successfully fleeing would actually let you escape, not just let you go one room and be pounced on again. I think this is a change that would encourage PvP as something like being outnumbered wouldn't instantly become a death sentence. If you fight, and are able to flee, you'd actually have a chance to get away.

As far as the actual timer goes, maybe something like 15 to 20 seconds? I wouldn't want it to be too long as this would also be in place when fighting mobs.

Thoughts?
User avatar
Brian
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:56 pm

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby Gobbo » Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:46 pm

I think the problem is the other way. Once someone successfully flees they can set sprint and be long gone if you can't type hit target fast enough while being in the same room as them.

I agree that flee could use some work, but the form of that I have no clue on. In fact I think the vast majority of people who escaped pvp have done so by fleeing then chaining direction commands to safety while moving quickly.
Gobbo
Honored Dwarf
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:01 am

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby Songweaver » Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:54 pm

If I were designing an RPI from the ground up, I would handle fleeing in a manner similar to what Brian is suggesting; I would also introduce more variables and make the actual ability to successfully flee more difficult (or more time-consuming). But I'd also do a lot of things differently than how they've been done in the past, probably.

The real chase/flee economy for SOI3, currently, is centered around two variables:

a) Stamina. Whoever runs out of stamina first, is generally going to lose the race.

b) Encumbrance. Whomever is more encumbered is likely to run out of stamina first.

Both players can type 'set run'. In most cases, one of them is going to outrun the other, assuming both are similarly familiar with the surrounding wilderness and can type at least at a moderate speed. It's not the greatest way to handle fleeing, but it does make a little bit of sense.

In brief, it could be worse. It could also, definitely, be better.
User avatar
Songweaver
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:21 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby Brian » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:33 pm

Gobbo wrote:I think the problem is the other way. Once someone successfully flees they can set sprint and be long gone if you can't type hit target fast enough while being in the same room as them.

I agree that flee could use some work, but the form of that I have no clue on. In fact I think the vast majority of people who escaped pvp have done so by fleeing then chaining direction commands to safety while moving quickly.


My question to you then Gobbo is why is your enemy getting away after you've engaged them in combat, and hopefully been able to take something significant in terms of how it might affect your character's out of it, a bad thing? The idea that it's more important to be able to catch someone that has fled so that you can engage them strikes me as being more concerned about getting the player kill than anything. It's an idea that rose out of the other thread in that I think getting the player kill should be de-emphasized, and I think only coded limitations are going to do that.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with someone (apparently) successfully escaping combat and then actually being able to escape. I quite like the idea actually as it would allow re-occurring rivalries to form. How cool would it be to meet the same human in combat a few times to the point where you've collected scars and stories about them, and they've become your nemesis? It could also lead to the development of (gasp) relationships between the two spheres. Antagonistic relationship, but you'd have a history between your PCs that could make encounters more meaningful and exciting.
User avatar
Brian
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:56 pm

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby Gobbo » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:58 pm

I've pk'd once in my entire carrier of playing rpi's and that was while on the defensive. I really dont care about getting the kill as much as you make it sound Brian.

If you make getting away too easy however then everyone is always going to escape and there will be minimal risk to pvp. It'll just be constant skirmishes. Also someone escaping by twink running is really bloody annoying.

But if we want to get into it, people dying is important. The death of an important pc keeps the game rolling and reduces stagnation. Staff dont kill enough prominant pc's these days. The only deaths result from pvp and silly lone newbies taking on too much to handle.

I'd prefer pvp to remain violent and flee to remain how it is, or even less effective than it is now. In fact my suggestion is to make flee use extra endurance so yes you've escaped the fight but if you intend to spam run a long distance to safety you are at a disadvantage. Flee should only save you if you are within 5-8 rooms of a safe zone.

In parallel I lost my favorite character hunter to no less than 3 lagatos. I fled all the way from the south factory and ran out of endurance 1 room from the gate. I was soooo bloody close. But you know..its realistic. I shouldn't be able to book it across the wild very far, especially when running for my life.

So thats my suggestion, I'd like to see a stamina hit when you flee. But keep the mechanic how it is.
Gobbo
Honored Dwarf
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:01 am

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby Brian » Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:13 pm

Gobbo wrote:I've pk'd once in my entire carrier of playing rpi's and that was while on the defensive. I really dont care about getting the kill as much as you make it sound Brian.

If you make getting away too easy however then everyone is always going to escape and there will be minimal risk to pvp. It'll just be constant skirmishes. Also someone escaping by twink running is really bloody annoying.

But if we want to get into it, people dying is important. The death of an important pc keeps the game rolling and reduces stagnation. Staff dont kill enough prominant pc's these days. The only deaths result from pvp and silly lone newbies taking on too much to handle.

I'd prefer pvp to remain violent and flee to remain how it is, or even less effective than it is now. In fact my suggestion is to make flee use extra endurance so yes you've escaped the fight but if you intend to spam run a long distance to safety you are at a disadvantage. Flee should only save you if you are within 5-8 rooms of a safe zone.

In parallel I lost my favorite character hunter to no less than 3 lagatos. I fled all the way from the south factory and ran out of endurance 1 room from the gate. I was soooo bloody close. But you know..its realistic. I shouldn't be able to book it across the wild very far, especially when running for my life.

So thats my suggestion, I'd like to see a stamina hit when you flee. But keep the mechanic how it is.


Sorry Gobbo, I'm not trying to say that you in particular are really into Pking, if it came off that way my apologies.

I see that we have a different perspective on the importance of player killing. I do think player deaths from PvP would reduce from this and I see it as a good thing for the reasons I outlined above. I can understand your point of view though, and can agree that there is some value in character turnover.

I definitely would not want to see fleeing become harder than it already is, or for it to further damage your stamina. I'd say as is if you have to flee from a fight and your adversary is persistent and reasonably skilled with the code it's more or less up to them whether you live or die as it is!
User avatar
Brian
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:56 pm

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby tehkory » Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:31 pm

Brian wrote:I'd say as is if you have to flee from a fight and your adversary is persistent and reasonably skilled with the code it's more or less up to them whether you live or die as it is!

This is pretty correct. Fleeing in shitty situations, even at peak agi/good con, really does leave you up to others' mercy. You can already drop from the pain of your wounds BEFORE you go unconscious, and if you add that on to reduced skills as you take damage, the difficulty of fleeing, the low odds of fleeing the direction you want to, and bleeders? Escaping really isn't guaranteed.
tehkory
Master Ent
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:21 pm

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby Jarlhen » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:00 am

Fleeing can only be made more effective if it becomes more difficult to use it. Or more variables. Like SW suggests, an actual skill or such. Otherwise combat will become utterly pointless as no one will ever be around for long enough to actually be defeated.
Image

[From Shammat] The Dark Lord demands more mashed potatoes.
User avatar
Jarlhen
Dwarf Recruit
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:28 am

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby Oblivion » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:55 pm

Hey! Why don't we make the 'Flee' command actually teleport you all the way back to your sphere or residence?! This would be great right? I fled, so I obviously am doing everything I can in order to escape combat (despite my broken legs or gushing bleeders or concussed head or terrible bite wound to my kidney or arrow in my knee).

On a more serious note, until the code is able to take into consideration the wounds a player has taken and how they realistically should be reacting, it still all comes down to ' Code = Rp '.

People aren't going to hinder themselves for a year + because they got a fractured skull. They aren't going to gimp themselves for years in game because their leg was nearly torn off. People aren't going to stay bed-ridden for ig months before being able to barely hobble around for minutes at a time because they lost so much blood through a terrible wound to the torso and after fighting off all kinds of infectious diseases because they want to get back to the bar and rp being alright and flirty.

It is what it is, and that's all it can be.
Oblivion
Dwarf Recruit
 
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:51 pm

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby Mithrandur » Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:14 am

Oblivion wrote:Hey! Why don't we make the 'Flee' command actually teleport you all the way back to your sphere or residence?! This would be great right? I fled, so I obviously am doing everything I can in order to escape combat (despite my broken legs or gushing bleeders or concussed head or terrible bite wound to my kidney or arrow in my knee).

On a more serious note, until the code is able to take into consideration the wounds a player has taken and how they realistically should be reacting, it still all comes down to ' Code = Rp '.

People aren't going to hinder themselves for a year + because they got a fractured skull. They aren't going to gimp themselves for years in game because their leg was nearly torn off. People aren't going to stay bed-ridden for ig months before being able to barely hobble around for minutes at a time because they lost so much blood through a terrible wound to the torso and after fighting off all kinds of infectious diseases because they want to get back to the bar and rp being alright and flirty.

It is what it is, and that's all it can be.


Valid points for the most part, though I've personally seen players who -have- gone to these lengths and have suffered for it for the sake of roleplay (one player for example, who had a fractured groin due to a spar and remained immobile for around 2 rl weeks. Codedly he could still move around fine, but he chose to play realistically.

I think the big issue is that players are not rewarded any more for playing realistic injuries than they are punished for not doing so. If there's no reward given to those who do things well, and no penalty for doing things poorly, then it sort of takes away any incentive to be at the top of your RP game.
Mithrandur
Honored Dwarf
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:20 pm

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby tehkory » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:44 am

Mithrandur wrote:
Oblivion wrote:Hey! Why don't we make the 'Flee' command actually teleport you all the way back to your sphere or residence?! This would be great right? I fled, so I obviously am doing everything I can in order to escape combat (despite my broken legs or gushing bleeders or concussed head or terrible bite wound to my kidney or arrow in my knee).

On a more serious note, until the code is able to take into consideration the wounds a player has taken and how they realistically should be reacting, it still all comes down to ' Code = Rp '.

People aren't going to hinder themselves for a year + because they got a fractured skull. They aren't going to gimp themselves for years in game because their leg was nearly torn off. People aren't going to stay bed-ridden for ig months before being able to barely hobble around for minutes at a time because they lost so much blood through a terrible wound to the torso and after fighting off all kinds of infectious diseases because they want to get back to the bar and rp being alright and flirty.

It is what it is, and that's all it can be.


Valid points for the most part, though I've personally seen players who -have- gone to these lengths and have suffered for it for the sake of roleplay (one player for example, who had a fractured groin due to a spar and remained immobile for around 2 rl weeks. Codedly he could still move around fine, but he chose to play realistically.

I think the big issue is that players are not rewarded any more for playing realistic injuries than they are punished for not doing so. If there's no reward given to those who do things well, and no penalty for doing things poorly, then it sort of takes away any incentive to be at the top of your RP game.

Maybe I'm just terribly liberal about wounds in particular, but...the more often a wound of X size happens, the less seriously I'm going to treat it. If it's no longer rare, an Admins' mobs are handing out horrifics to six people a day, I'm probably not going to expect people to roleplay out permanent consequences, and as a medical PC I probably will send a mudmail to the same effect. It's hard justifying an investment of my time/effort to play this out when the next time I go out, I can just get another horrific wound, and it starts all over again.

Not that I'm going to treat a horrific as a small, but during the times of this game where I've seen 2-3 terribles/horrifics in one RPT, I just can't put them on the same level I normally would. It's hard to justify the more extreme ends of wounded roleplay even on a -good- day, because the more you do it, the more likely it's going to become shallow, repetitive, boring roleplay, too. Don't instantly heal without any respect to anything at all...but also, make progress and get better.

Also, rolls vs. con and wil are underutilized for these situations.

ETA:
More on topic, had a brief bit of PvP. Went okay. I'd do it again. Flee became 'pmote and chase,' and then one side got away.
tehkory
Master Ent
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:21 pm

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby Oblivion » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:00 am

Hey I can agree completely to that sentiment. I'm honestly not a proponent of enforcing 'effects' of coded wounds that are generated by a dice roll. Which just goes further to enhance the fact that during combat, whether it's first engaging or during a character's attempt to flee for their lives, the code is the roleplay and we really shouldn't expect a light novel out of someone as they try getting away from their killer.

If the players here actually -want- that sort of thing, they need to turn the game into a MUSH or a forum story-board rpg where there are no hard-coded combat effects and it is all 'True Literary Co-Writing of the Story'.

The sooner people realize that, the sooner people are going to stop being butt hurt when things don't go the way they expect them to in engagements. The sooner people will stop having their feelings hurt 'because they didn't even throw out an emote before attacking'. The sooner folks will stop putting themselves in dangerous positions and then crying 'because it was my favorite pc ever and this death left a bad taste in my mouth.'


.... and just for the record, the -only- time I've ever RP'd the after effects of a wound taken in game, was when I took a mortal, gushing, wound to the skull from a crossbow bolt and lived. I was basically a mobile vegetable. But this was during the Fall of Osgiliath, and the pc was doomed to die anyway.
Oblivion
Dwarf Recruit
 
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:51 pm

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby Gobbo » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:35 am

I would like to balance out edged weapons with blunt a bit. Make it so if you are bleeding you have about a 50% chance to prompt a bleed every time you move, a chance that gets higher if you are moving faster than a walk. That way people who are spam sprinting will bleed out stupid fast in a couple of rooms.
Gobbo
Honored Dwarf
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:01 am

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby Real » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:45 am

While that does sound like a good idea...

There are times where you're far out in the wilderness and a colossal, enormous, terrifying, aggressive bear (or a dire, gigantic dark warg and his band of cohorts) comes in and smacks you hard out of nowhere, just after being revealed by a squirrel or something similarly tame. You grimace, irl, as you spot that red text that heralds a bad wound.

It's life or death, and unless you're some ultimate blademaster a grizzly/warg pack will end your life.

In these situations, if you do anything but immediately flee you're guaranteed to get curb-stomped in short order. But if you flee and we heighten the threat of bleeding, you'll be losing hp every room while you fire across the wilderness trying to escape homing mobs. Not a good look.

And as a side note, that would make spears easily the best weapons, as they tend to cause way worse bleeders than swords, and they do it more often.

If a bleeding opponent runs from you, set jog and track them. Search each room. Constitution is of use here, but if they're sprinting you'll close the distance before long. Endurance is key, and pacing yourself to catch someone you know is fleeing recklessly. 9/10 players will run like crazy till their stamina is done or they break line of sight, then hide. The other one swims the bottom of the river. It only takes a couple seconds to search/track and jog between rooms, particularly if your hunting skill is high.

Run them down!
Everything gets smaller now the further that I go
Towards the mouth and the reunion of the known and the unknown
Consider yourself lucky if you think of it as home
You can move mountains with your misery if you don't
User avatar
Real
Elf Recruit
 
Posts: 206
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:13 pm

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby Matt » Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:43 pm

I'll get mad about a really crappy PvP encounter but only briefly. I think the trick is to just look forward to the next PC and try and have an even better idea.
Matt
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 533
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:47 pm

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby Eru » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:36 pm

Matt wrote:I'll get mad about a really crappy PvP encounter but only briefly. I think the trick is to just look forward to the next PC and try and have an even better idea.


This. Death has and always will be a part of SOI. It is inevitable your character will die eventually - just be glad this team doesn't kill you off on a whim like the ones of old. PvP has always been its own beast and players should already be aware of that.
User avatar
Eru
Guide
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat May 17, 2014 2:13 pm

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby Songweaver » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:40 pm

Ah, the good old days, when I slept upon a virtual bed made of PC corpses.
User avatar
Songweaver
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:21 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Fleeing: What does it mean and should it be more relevan

Postby Matt » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:33 pm

I had some PCs with some pretty substantial kill counts. Orcs being orcs! Really the combat system now is so much better then it was then.
Matt
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 533
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:47 pm


Return to General Discussion

Connect

FacebookTwitter

Login

Who is online

Amazing people browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Login