It is currently Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:29 pm
Change font size

General Discussion

Armor Layering

Discuss game issues here.

Moderator: Elder Staff

Re: Armor Layering

Postby Melkor » Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:45 pm

Code: Select all
<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||| > exam haub
   It is a rough iron mail hauberk.

   It will cover the torso, upper-arms, neck and lower-arms,
and partially cover the upper-legs.

   It is in good condition. It is beyond any repair.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||||> exam gamb
   It is a black gambeson of oiled leather.

   It will cover the torso, upper-arms, neck and lower-arms,
and partially cover the upper-legs.

   It is in good condition. It is beyond any repair.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||| > eval haub
It is a rough iron mail hauberk


You recognise that you could wear this item in the following locations:
  Body
  About
  Overwear

You would guess that this item weighs about 21 pounds.

You judge that this item would greatly hinder your Sneak skill.
You judge that this item would greatly hinder your Hide skill.
You judge that this item would slightly improve your Deflect skill.


<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||| > eval gamb
It is a black gambeson of oiled leather


You recognise that you could wear this item in the following locations:
  Body
  About
  Overwear

You would guess that this item weighs about 9 pounds.

You judge that this item would slightly improve your Sneak skill.
You judge that this item would slightly improve your Deflect skill.



It was my assumption that it was not supposed to be possible to wear two objects that both cover the same spot. You were able to wear additional partial covers in the same spot, but not two primaries.

Like this:
Code: Select all
   It is a thick, brown leather cloak.

   It will partially cover the upper-legs, upper-arms, head,
neck, lower-legs and lower-arms.
“If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.”

― René Descartes
User avatar
Melkor
Honored Dwarf
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:45 am

Re: Armor Layering

Postby Icarus » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:28 pm

You can, it just marks the other one as secondary.
[Petition: Player] I am ready to begin my interdimensional adventure.

A mutilated little orc murmurs, nodding as he mutters,
"I fought good today. Yuh. Fought good, 'specially for bein' the kitchen-snaga. Yuh, I did."
User avatar
Icarus
Staffer Emeritus
 
Posts: 2837
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:45 pm

Re: Armor Layering

Postby Droll » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:47 am

Icarus wrote:You can, it just marks the other one as secondary.


Can we get scale so I can wear it with my mail? It'll go good with my dual wielded spears technique.
[A burning comet headed straight for your head is online. Use NOTIFY to reply in kind.]
Droll
Honored Dwarf
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 7:17 pm

Re: Armor Layering

Postby Icarus » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:04 am

I'll completely disable dual wielding, how about that :-)
[Petition: Player] I am ready to begin my interdimensional adventure.

A mutilated little orc murmurs, nodding as he mutters,
"I fought good today. Yuh. Fought good, 'specially for bein' the kitchen-snaga. Yuh, I did."
User avatar
Icarus
Staffer Emeritus
 
Posts: 2837
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:45 pm

Re: Armor Layering

Postby Droll » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:08 am

Icarus wrote:I'll completely disable dual wielding, how about that :-)


Muh build too stronk!

I'm ok with that though, just get those bigger shields out quick. :P

Also, after some, uh, testing, I don't think there is nothing wrong with layering. Popping mods through mail and oiled with practice weapons seems reasonable.
[A burning comet headed straight for your head is online. Use NOTIFY to reply in kind.]
Droll
Honored Dwarf
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 7:17 pm

Re: Armor Layering

Postby Songweaver » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:25 am

As Kory mentioned, you can't assume that something is balanced or not balanced based on a singular experience. Imbalance can only become a conclusion over a longer period of testing, and the effects of layered armor on DPS balance are well-documented and tested. It's not good.

In Atonement's ALPHA, I countered armor layering by GREATLY increasing the population and power-level of dangerous NPCs. The only time in SOI3's history where the NPC population came close to resembling Atonement ALPHA's was during Alcarin and Fulgrim's spider invasion of the woods north of Utterby. For those that remember the two day RPT to rid the forest of those spiders nests, keep in mind that ARPI ALPHA constantly loaded numbers similar to - and greater than - those numbers.

It's the population of dangerous mobs that allowed for speedy skillgains, as the skillgain system begins to take into account how many mobs you are being targeted by as a pre-requisite for skillgain at certain levels.

That said, keeping armor layering in the game would demand the release of Good Quality weapons and MUCH more deadly mobs + population. The armor in SOI3 is already stronger than the armor PCs had in Atonement, and allowing that armor to be layered only compounds the issue of weapons and mobs not being as strong, comparatively.

SOI3's training wheels in terms of danger and resource scarcity/economy is one of it's most significant issues. Armor Layering (and dual-wielding medium-sized weapons) are the greatest damnable offenses to that issue on the combat side of things, currently.
User avatar
Songweaver
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:21 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Armor Layering

Postby Ceredir » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:37 am

Can I just point out that the original premise that layering two primary armors is overpowered is completely wrong?

The problem was in layering, but not as it was stated in the original post.

Just saying.
I don't always test my code.
But when I do I do it on the player port.
Ceredir
Journeyman Architect
 
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:12 pm

Re: Armor Layering

Postby Songweaver » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:08 am

I don't have a conceptual issue with armor layering. I just have an effective issue with the code, itself, based on experience.

Icarus has said that he's now gone in and fixed the code to ignore the issues we had with it in Atonement, so that layering armor only gives a standard +1AC bonus (effectively), and compares the damage-type against the armor-type of the top layer of armor.

If this is true, then I don't have any complaints with the fix. It seems fair and balanced to me, and I'm grateful for the prompt researching and fix.
User avatar
Songweaver
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:21 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Armor Layering

Postby Ceredir » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:33 am

What I am saying is that two primary armors layered like what you posted didn't actually have any combat-related coded effect besides encumberance.
There was a rather amusing side effect that only happened with certain very specific armor_types and AC combined when on primary over secondary armor. It was actually not achievable in game on body armor at all, for example.

I merely responded because of the ongoing discussion about layering.
I don't always test my code.
But when I do I do it on the player port.
Ceredir
Journeyman Architect
 
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:12 pm

Re: Armor Layering

Postby radioactivejesus » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:48 am

all this debate is confusing me. What coded advantages does wearing a gambeson underneath chainmail give, exactly?
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
look sword
This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
User avatar
radioactivejesus
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 463
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:39 pm

Re: Armor Layering

Postby Songweaver » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:07 pm

After Icarus' fix, it effectively gives +1 to AC.
User avatar
Songweaver
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:21 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Armor Layering

Postby MrT2G » Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:49 pm

Bludgeons are OP too.

Just saying.

Edited to add:

While I don't particularly think armor-stacking is broken or should be removed, it does just make high strength-builds even more OP.
A curvy, copper-haired woman drops a small, strawberry-blonde toddler girl.
MrT2G
Elf Recruit
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:11 pm

Previous

Return to General Discussion

cron

Connect

FacebookTwitter

Login

Who is online

Amazing people browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Login