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Re: Armor Layering

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:45 pm
by Melkor

Code: Select all

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||| > exam haub
   It is a rough iron mail hauberk.

   It will cover the torso, upper-arms, neck and lower-arms, 
and partially cover the upper-legs. 

   It is in good condition. It is beyond any repair. 

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||||> exam gamb
   It is a black gambeson of oiled leather.

   It will cover the torso, upper-arms, neck and lower-arms, 
and partially cover the upper-legs. 

   It is in good condition. It is beyond any repair.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||| > eval haub
It is a rough iron mail hauberk 


You recognise that you could wear this item in the following locations:
  Body
  About
  Overwear

You would guess that this item weighs about 21 pounds. 

You judge that this item would greatly hinder your Sneak skill. 
You judge that this item would greatly hinder your Hide skill. 
You judge that this item would slightly improve your Deflect skill. 


<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||| > eval gamb
It is a black gambeson of oiled leather 


You recognise that you could wear this item in the following locations:
  Body
  About
  Overwear

You would guess that this item weighs about 9 pounds. 

You judge that this item would slightly improve your Sneak skill. 
You judge that this item would slightly improve your Deflect skill. 

It was my assumption that it was not supposed to be possible to wear two objects that both cover the same spot. You were able to wear additional partial covers in the same spot, but not two primaries.

Like this:

Code: Select all

   It is a thick, brown leather cloak.

   It will partially cover the upper-legs, upper-arms, head, 
neck, lower-legs and lower-arms.

Re: Armor Layering

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:28 pm
by Icarus
You can, it just marks the other one as secondary.

Re: Armor Layering

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:47 am
by Droll
Icarus wrote:You can, it just marks the other one as secondary.
Can we get scale so I can wear it with my mail? It'll go good with my dual wielded spears technique.

Re: Armor Layering

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:04 am
by Icarus
I'll completely disable dual wielding, how about that :-)

Re: Armor Layering

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:08 am
by Droll
Icarus wrote:I'll completely disable dual wielding, how about that :-)
Muh build too stronk!

I'm ok with that though, just get those bigger shields out quick. :P

Also, after some, uh, testing, I don't think there is nothing wrong with layering. Popping mods through mail and oiled with practice weapons seems reasonable.

Re: Armor Layering

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:25 am
by Songweaver
As Kory mentioned, you can't assume that something is balanced or not balanced based on a singular experience. Imbalance can only become a conclusion over a longer period of testing, and the effects of layered armor on DPS balance are well-documented and tested. It's not good.

In Atonement's ALPHA, I countered armor layering by GREATLY increasing the population and power-level of dangerous NPCs. The only time in SOI3's history where the NPC population came close to resembling Atonement ALPHA's was during Alcarin and Fulgrim's spider invasion of the woods north of Utterby. For those that remember the two day RPT to rid the forest of those spiders nests, keep in mind that ARPI ALPHA constantly loaded numbers similar to - and greater than - those numbers.

It's the population of dangerous mobs that allowed for speedy skillgains, as the skillgain system begins to take into account how many mobs you are being targeted by as a pre-requisite for skillgain at certain levels.

That said, keeping armor layering in the game would demand the release of Good Quality weapons and MUCH more deadly mobs + population. The armor in SOI3 is already stronger than the armor PCs had in Atonement, and allowing that armor to be layered only compounds the issue of weapons and mobs not being as strong, comparatively.

SOI3's training wheels in terms of danger and resource scarcity/economy is one of it's most significant issues. Armor Layering (and dual-wielding medium-sized weapons) are the greatest damnable offenses to that issue on the combat side of things, currently.

Re: Armor Layering

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:37 am
by Ceredir
Can I just point out that the original premise that layering two primary armors is overpowered is completely wrong?

The problem was in layering, but not as it was stated in the original post.

Just saying.

Re: Armor Layering

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:08 am
by Songweaver
I don't have a conceptual issue with armor layering. I just have an effective issue with the code, itself, based on experience.

Icarus has said that he's now gone in and fixed the code to ignore the issues we had with it in Atonement, so that layering armor only gives a standard +1AC bonus (effectively), and compares the damage-type against the armor-type of the top layer of armor.

If this is true, then I don't have any complaints with the fix. It seems fair and balanced to me, and I'm grateful for the prompt researching and fix.

Re: Armor Layering

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:33 am
by Ceredir
What I am saying is that two primary armors layered like what you posted didn't actually have any combat-related coded effect besides encumberance.
There was a rather amusing side effect that only happened with certain very specific armor_types and AC combined when on primary over secondary armor. It was actually not achievable in game on body armor at all, for example.

I merely responded because of the ongoing discussion about layering.

Re: Armor Layering

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:48 am
by radioactivejesus
all this debate is confusing me. What coded advantages does wearing a gambeson underneath chainmail give, exactly?

Re: Armor Layering

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:07 pm
by Songweaver
After Icarus' fix, it effectively gives +1 to AC.

Re: Armor Layering

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:49 pm
by MrT2G
Bludgeons are OP too.

Just saying.

Edited to add:

While I don't particularly think armor-stacking is broken or should be removed, it does just make high strength-builds even more OP.