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Trust

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Re: Trust

Postby Songweaver » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:05 am

Why not just standardize Invitation Only roles, too?

Other players are going to be more prone to roleplay with and enjoy interaction with those special characters, if they feel like those characters are following a fair set of rules.

IMO, Brian's elf or the current in-game characters that have been offered similar advantages would be far more effective in what you want them to accomplish if the community believed they followed the same rules as everyone else.

In short, to accomplish what you want to accomplish with Invitation Only characters, they need to follow fair guidelines that are visible for the entire community.

Brian's elf (and the other characters) didn't need those advantages to be effective. I'll over-share here, now, as an example:

I played Bjarndyr. Most people should know that by now. This wasn't an invitation-only role (though I was invited to the role), because when I was invited to play a Beorning and write the Beorning documentation, I insisted that Beornings be made an open RPP role. I wrote the docs, I wrote the roles so that other people could play Beornings, I submitted it all to staff who then approved and put it in the game.

I didn't receive any stat/equipment/etc boosts outside of the standardization that I helped set into place for any other Beornings to come (which also became the standards for all 1/2RPP roles that currently exist).

Bjarndyr was considered to be one of the most effective combat characters in all of SOI3, then, and now. Sort of funny: technically, he was maybe in the 50%ish range when it came to his "character sheet".

I didn't spar with him to twink up his skills. I didn't even hit "Adroit" in any of his combat skills, besides hide(Adroit) and sneak(Legendary).

And yet, he was effective in PvE plots, he was probably the most effective character human-side in PvP conflict vs the Orcs. He was believable as a badass because of roleplay and plot and proactivity.

Invitation Only characters don't need unparalleled skill/equipment advantages to be successfully played.

Let players earn their way fairly, and with transparency. It's going to bring peace to an obviously divided community, and IMO, it's going to lead to proactive players that want to DO things, because they have to if they want to be successful.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:08 am

Matt wrote:Please get back on topic address the real issue so we can move on. If your stance is 'screw you I do what I want' I don't believe there's a need to move forward in this thread.


My stance isn't 'screw you', Matt. My stance is that I do not want to paint myself in to a corner. Some of you will no doubt say that this is a horrible sign, that I don't want to follow rules, but the point is that I will not give up the freedom to use discretion in different situations. The minute I lay down some 'concrete rules' that cover ALL forms of roles, then an issue comes up where what we want to do is literally breaking the rules. I am not going to set myself up to be boxed in by a set of rules that I'm pretty darned sure will hamper something, somewhere along the line.

If I've not made the fact clear that I am very willing to continue with the basic rules of x RPP gets you x skill points during your chargen, I apologize. I'm more than willing to work with that, in fact, I'm pretty darned sure we've hammered out the details on that.

I'm also willing to work within the rules of our racial boosting for basic roles and chargen.

The rules themselves that a lot of people have been talking about, are not the problem when it comes to basic roles and races. The problem is with the upper tier, the Invited Roles. Being able to boost these players to levels that allow them to actively perform their duties immediately is what I'm balking at when it comes to all of your (collective) suggestions for rules and standards.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:16 am

Matt wrote:I really have no words. Is nimrod actually kite?

To sum up. I'm going to continue to give my friends ridiculously powered unfair PCs. I'll continue to help them in PvP. I'm going to continue doing everything that's grinding this game into the ground.

Oh and check out my seven year plan!


If that's what you think, I don't believe there's anything I can do to talk you out of it, Matt. I'm not sure what else to say.

I'm being very blunt about my opinions, saying right up front what I'm going to do (identify some great players and give them some tools to work with to accomplish a game-wide goal). I could, instead, just say 'Yep... I agree with you, let's follow these rules all the way.' and then just turn around and bring all my so-called friends on to staff and let them play uber npcs to dominate the game.

But no. I am laying out a fairly simple plan, but that plan does require some discretion on the part of staff to make it work, and you're unwilling to trust.

LOL at my 7 year plan.

Oh... and no, I am not Kite! <.< >.>

I'm quite willing to defend my stances and explain to you why I am taking that stand.

[ETA: The accusation of these players taking these roles is patently false - Those who have taken these roles thusfar are all just acquaintances, known only through play of this game. I do not communicate with them via AIM or any other ooc manner. In fact, it's my intent to be meaner to my (very few) online friends than to someone like, say, Matt, who I don't think I've ever talked to oocly in my life.]
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Re: Trust

Postby twitchyweasel » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:24 am

Nimrod wrote:
Matt wrote:Please get back on topic address the real issue so we can move on. If your stance is 'screw you I do what I want' I don't believe there's a need to move forward in this thread.


My stance isn't 'screw you', Matt. My stance is that I do not want to paint myself in to a corner. Some of you will no doubt say that this is a horrible sign, that I don't want to follow rules, but the point is that I will not give up the freedom to use discretion in different situations. The minute I lay down some 'concrete rules' that cover ALL forms of roles, then an issue comes up where what we want to do is literally breaking the rules. I am not going to set myself up to be boxed in by a set of rules that I'm pretty darned sure will hamper something, somewhere along the line.

If I've not made the fact clear that I am very willing to continue with the basic rules of x RPP gets you x skill points during your chargen, I apologize. I'm more than willing to work with that, in fact, I'm pretty darned sure we've hammered out the details on that.

I'm also willing to work within the rules of our racial boosting for basic roles and chargen.

The rules themselves that a lot of people have been talking about, are not the problem when it comes to basic roles and races. The problem is with the upper tier, the Invited Roles. Being able to boost these players to levels that allow them to actively perform their duties immediately is what I'm balking at when it comes to all of your (collective) suggestions for rules and standards.



What duties do these 'Upper tier' characters have to do that requires them to have mega skills, stats and gear? What duties did the elf do that he couldn't have without great combat skills? Go solo bears?
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Re: Trust

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:27 am

twitchyweasel wrote:
Nimrod wrote:
Matt wrote:Please get back on topic address the real issue so we can move on. If your stance is 'screw you I do what I want' I don't believe there's a need to move forward in this thread.


My stance isn't 'screw you', Matt. My stance is that I do not want to paint myself in to a corner. Some of you will no doubt say that this is a horrible sign, that I don't want to follow rules, but the point is that I will not give up the freedom to use discretion in different situations. The minute I lay down some 'concrete rules' that cover ALL forms of roles, then an issue comes up where what we want to do is literally breaking the rules. I am not going to set myself up to be boxed in by a set of rules that I'm pretty darned sure will hamper something, somewhere along the line.

If I've not made the fact clear that I am very willing to continue with the basic rules of x RPP gets you x skill points during your chargen, I apologize. I'm more than willing to work with that, in fact, I'm pretty darned sure we've hammered out the details on that.

I'm also willing to work within the rules of our racial boosting for basic roles and chargen.

The rules themselves that a lot of people have been talking about, are not the problem when it comes to basic roles and races. The problem is with the upper tier, the Invited Roles. Being able to boost these players to levels that allow them to actively perform their duties immediately is what I'm balking at when it comes to all of your (collective) suggestions for rules and standards.



What duties do these 'Upper tier' characters have to do that requires them to have mega skills and gear? What duties did the elf do that he couldn't have without great combat skills? Go solo bears?


The infamous log where the character was "saved" could stand as an example of this, twitchyweasel. Attacking six orc characters, even with a character with some boosts and better equipment, is an incredibly risky thing to do. Doing that as a character without any supplementation, and then trying to RP and allowing myself to be engaged and not doing a run and snipe would have been downright suicidal. The only reason I attempted to interact with the orcs in that situation is because I thought there was some margin for escaping after the inevitable conflict.
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Re: Trust

Postby Songweaver » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:37 am

I don't see that being particularly valuable, Brian, to be fair.

In fact, all that your reference did was sour those orc players to the game, resulting in several of them quitting.

Refer to my post at the top of this page. You just don't need unparalleled advantages to succeed at playing an Invite Only role.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:37 am

twitchyweasel wrote:What duties do these 'Upper tier' characters have to do that requires them to have mega skills, stats and gear? What duties did the elf do that he couldn't have without great combat skills? Go solo bears?

I think Brian pretty much hit it on the head, but it does go deeper than that. If we want to bring in a character to say... be a vintner... and his background is such that he is an older man with 30 years experience making wines, then I want the freedom to be able to boost his skills and crafts so he can get these things done immediately and worry about the roleplay surrounding his role rather than the grind.

If that vintner hires a handful of players to come work for him, he has the tools he needs to teach them and the time to actually roleplay with them and others throughout the city trying to strike deals for selling his wines. He also has the time to delve in to politics, or even the underdocks if that's part of the plan, instead of being tied to twinking up his skills for a year to be able to just make a living.

There's a lot of trust being given to the more combat-oriented types, and they will not be indestructible tanks running around Mirkwood, but they will be able to move around with a lot more confidence. If they're soloing bears, then that bear will likely have a friend right around the corner that's going to either kill the character or chase him all the way back home, rebuked for his twinky actions. Though he'd likely just end up dead and not be able to take an invited role again for quite some time.
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Re: Trust

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:39 am

Songweaver wrote:I don't see that being particularly valuable, Brian, to be fair.

In fact, all that your reference did was sour those orc players to the game, resulting in several of them quitting.

Refer to my post at the top of this page. You just don't need unparalleled advantages to succeed at playing an Invite Only role.


I'd like to, but I don't quite understand why this soured them to the game so badly. Was it because they felt like an admin stepped in to deprive them of their rightful prize?

ETA: I don't mean to sound like an ass-hat with that question either; I mean, I tried to offer an opportunity to RP there and got zero out of it. I came to learn later that if you use archery at all, that's what you're asking for, and didn't fully understand that at the time. Then an admin stepped into the scene and it made people quit the game? So it would have better to not interact with the orcs at all then to try to, get 0 RP out of it, and have an admin step in?
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Re: Trust

Postby Songweaver » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:44 am

Brian wrote:
Songweaver wrote:I don't see that being particularly valuable, Brian, to be fair.

In fact, all that your reference did was sour those orc players to the game, resulting in several of them quitting.

Refer to my post at the top of this page. You just don't need unparalleled advantages to succeed at playing an Invite Only role.


I'd like to, but I don't quite understand why this soured them to the game so badly. Was it because they felt like an admin stepped in to deprive them of their rightful prize?


If I had to guess, it'd probably have more to do with the fact that they had been playing and investing a lot of effort the game for a long time, only to find out that someone who hadn't been playing the game rolled in with a character so strong (with advantages that no other player had access to) that it could actually stand up to a whole group of veteran characters -- and potentially kill some of them.

I really don't think that you'd feel good about that either, were the tables turned. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

Not saying that you did anything wrong, Brian. I don't think that these policies are good for the game, and I think that this thread goes a long way to suggest that even the players who are still around and haven't quit feel, very strongly, the same way.

Nimrod wrote:things to other people


I do feel like my rational examples and points are being side-stepped by you in this debate, Nimrod.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:48 am

Songweaver wrote:Refer to my post at the top of this page. You just don't need unparalleled advantages to succeed at playing an Invite Only role.


I disagree, SW. Skills and stats in the hands of a player who is willing to use them in an altruistic manner are a powerful thing. I believe you have the ability to be altruistic, as do a few others that play.

The advantages, to this player, are merely a blanket to save them from the pack of pvp hounds that are intent on a PK. And we cannot deny that we do have PK hounds.

Throughout the movies and books... a group of six orcs would have always been wary of a single elf, and he could have likely slayed all of them with his bow before they got near enough to engage in melee.

So... what I'm trying to do is allow SOME form of roleplay between these two groups and provide some assurances to the elf that he can disengage if things go bad on the roleplay side. It's not intended to allow him to own everything in the woods when it comes to combat, if that happened, I would have a serious chat with the player to straighten him out.

It's a very odd combination, confrontation and avoiding the PK, but there are many that wish to do it, while there are many also that wish to get the PK at all costs.
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Re: Trust

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:49 am

Songweaver wrote:
I really don't think that you'd feel good about that either, were the tables turned. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

Not saying that you did anything wrong, Brian. I don't think that these policies are good for the game, and I think that this thread goes a long way to suggest that even the players who are still around and haven't quit feel, very strongly, the same way.


Maybe that's it right there. I wouldn't feel badly if I got to roleplay with an amazing troll character that could crush my character in physical combat; I would consider it a pleasure to interact with them, and would really actively try to interact with them in as many ways as I could before we got to the smashing part. I would probably still try to escape and hopefully get away to do it again sometime.

Granted, at the time of this encounter my character's armor was broken. However, as the last encounter showed, when outnumbered at that kind of level, that character was far, far from unkillable.

My desire to try and RP first probably put my character at a large disadvantage. At the time of the character's death I didn't have a combat skill that was above talented because I almost never sparred or anything like that. If I had sparred daily from the beginning the character likely could have been far far more fearsome, but playing a character that could kill anything was not at all my intention or desire.
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Re: Trust

Postby tehkory » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:51 am

If I've not made the fact clear that I am very willing to continue with the basic rules of x RPP gets you x skill points during your chargen, I apologize. I'm more than willing to work with that, in fact, I'm pretty darned sure we've hammered out the details on that.

I'm also willing to work within the rules of our racial boosting for basic roles and chargen.

Promises, promises. Like I said, you often don't fulfill them. I'll believe it when I see it.

Brian wrote:
Songweaver wrote:I don't see that being particularly valuable, Brian, to be fair.

In fact, all that your reference did was sour those orc players to the game, resulting in several of them quitting.

Refer to my post at the top of this page. You just don't need unparalleled advantages to succeed at playing an Invite Only role.


I'd like to, but I don't quite understand why this soured them to the game so badly. Was it because they felt like an admin stepped in to deprive them of their rightful prize?

ETA: I don't mean to sound like an ass-hat with that question either; I mean, I tried to offer an opportunity to RP there and got zero out of it. I came to learn later that if you use archery at all, that's what you're asking for, and didn't fully understand that at the time. Then an admin stepped into the scene and it made people quit the game? So it would have better to not interact with the orcs at all then to try to, get 0 RP out of it, and have an admin step in?


Well, why I'm out is a different reason entirely.

Heck... it's my dream to identify several invited roles to play Frodo, some of the dwarves, the bard, and even the dragon when the time comes.


Bilbo, Thorin&co., and the Dragon as Invited Roles? Nty. I don't want to see players running these people on an invincible, set course that has zero standards or oversight. I don't want players to have them at all, but I'll draw my line on the bolded part.

I want roles, items, and races to be standardized, and accountable, so *I* can check when Bob the Evil Admin starts changing things. That's why we have Compare, Evaluate, and examine, yeah? If the standards suck, I can leave because I don't like them upfront.

Anyway. Haven's rebooting, and that's my greener pasture. Good luck with the vision of this game, but it's not one I can share. Thanks for being open with us, Nimrod.
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Re: Trust

Postby Justanothacivy » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:52 am

Yes, a group of six nameless orcs would run from an elf.

I'd like to think the orcs that have built a name for themselves are far more powerful. Not to mention the only elf they ran from was Legolas, an elven prince. Not exactly a fair comparison.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:54 am

Songweaver wrote:I do feel like my rational examples and points are being side-stepped by you in this debate, Nimrod.

There are many points that I am not commenting on, SW, I do not type a thousand words a minute and take time for each post I comment on to provide an articulate (as much as I'm able anyway) response that comes after a well-thought-out bit of reasoning.

There are a lot of ideas whipping around in this thread and I cannot dash out meaningful responses in an instant.

I promise that I will review your last post, where you re-posted your ideas and respond to that in my very next post.
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Re: Trust

Postby Songweaver » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:19 am

re: Brian

There's a difference between natural skill levels/ability and effective skill levels and power. Even after the great finale for your character, when I eval'd his objects, I could tell that they were still far too strong. I know this because I designed the stats for all of the weapons/armor that were in the game at that time.

I'm not sure what the elf's stats were, but I imagine that they were much higher than other characters' stats. Stats matter a lot more on this version of the engine than they did on the old SOI engine, and that's very important to understand.

Additionally, your character received massive skill boosts from his weapons/etc alone, and I never got to see the character's original gear (that was supposedly much stronger).

But you didn't need it to be successful. And, even if you don't understand why it would really upset everyone else, it still did. I can sympathize with that. The "Free People" were a very divisive force in the player-base for a while, because they had a fort (granted, the clan was forced to move into the fort by the staff). I didn't entirely disagree with the complaints and really pushed to standardize them (submitted standardization documentation for building structures/etc, submitted RPP roles, tons of documentation, etc), because I think that standardization is important.

I took a lot of heat for the staff's lack of standardization back then that I didn't feel was my fault, similarly to (if maybe not as much as) what you've experienced with your elf. I don't think that you did anything wrong with your elf. You played with what you were given.

But, the broken boosts/equipment are still happening with other PCs, and it's still souring the game for people -- just as lack of role/bonus standardization always has in this community.
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Re: Trust

Postby radioactivejesus » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:27 am

Brian wrote:
Songweaver wrote:
I really don't think that you'd feel good about that either, were the tables turned. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

Not saying that you did anything wrong, Brian. I don't think that these policies are good for the game, and I think that this thread goes a long way to suggest that even the players who are still around and haven't quit feel, very strongly, the same way.


Maybe that's it right there. I wouldn't feel badly if I got to roleplay with an amazing troll character that could crush my character in physical combat; I would consider it a pleasure to interact with them, and would really actively try to interact with them in as many ways as I could before we got to the smashing part. I would probably still try to escape and hopefully get away to do it again sometime.

Granted, at the time of this encounter my character's armor was broken. However, as the last encounter showed, when outnumbered at that kind of level, that character was far, far from unkillable.

My desire to try and RP first probably put my character at a large disadvantage. At the time of the character's death I didn't have a combat skill that was above talented because I almost never sparred or anything like that. If I had sparred daily from the beginning the character likely could have been far far more fearsome, but playing a character that could kill anything was not at all my intention or desire.


I feel that anyone apping into these special roles should be able to enhance the game world with their roleplay alone, even without getting stat and equipment boosts far far above their RPP level. This would also remove the 'gamist' incentive, and keep it so that the people getting these roles were only there because they loved the character concept. This would also remove the feelings of unfairness going on amidst the playerbase. If you had entered with 0 stat boosts, some decent skill boosts equivalent to what a high rpp player could get so you didn't have to worry about the grind, and some custom described equipment that were equivalent to what was currently craftable, you'd still probably be able to accomplish all of the positive things you had managed, and nobody would be able to cry unfairness.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:31 am

Songweaver wrote:These were my suggestions, reposted for your easier perusal.

This is what I'd love to see happen:

- Special App Guidelines are written, with an emphasis on specificity. These guidelines are adhered to, whether you are a returning player, or a staff member rolling a PC.

Just so we're on the same page here... There are 3 levels of roles.
- Special Roles - Which are chosen by the player at chargen
- Requested Roles - Suggested by players and application made to staff. (May morph in to a Sponsored Role if deemed appropriate)
- Sponsored Roles (Invite only) - These are the high-level roles that we invite players to fill privately (or via public announcement) to fill a specific need within the gameworld.

I'm just fine with the rules for the first two roles, but Sponsored Roles need to have some way to apply a special exemption to them, and the only way I can see to do that is by Elder Staff discussing among themselves and approving those special exemptions.

Songweaver wrote:- No more equipment of quality levels that can't be crafted. How many times have we heard that this won't happen anymore? It keeps happening. If you want to give a special role some unique stuff, give them top craftable level gear with progs/minor benefits that don't directly effect the primary combat variables: AC and damage. Let elf swords light up when orcs are nearby. Let them have a slight bonus vs orcs and a slight penalty vs wildlife. Don't up the tiers. Players here feel that that is cheating, and a lot of that has to do with SOI's history. That history needs to be respected.

I do not believe that I ever said this would not happen, SW. If you can point that out to me, I'd appreciate it.

I am fine with this rule for Special and Requested Roles, but once again must balk at the Sponsored Role. First off, we don't have all of our crafts in-game, they'll be continuing to grow as time goes by and placing a rule such as this that limits us from using something from a planned craft is rather limiting.

Doling out some special gear, especially armor, as I've noted above is extremely important to the execution of what it is I want to do. I won't chew the cabbage twice, it'll just waste space and your time.

As for players feeling it's cheating: Unfortunately that is a direct result of other games, not this one, and the mindset seems to have trickled over here. I've said it before... This isn't Atonement.

As long as I have played this game, there have been players and npcs with some pretty powerful weapons and armor that made mine pale by comparison. I have no intention of putting an orc or human on a level playing field with an elf or dwarf. They are inherently better at every combat stat overall, that should be reflected in-game.

As for respecting history... that's a fairly lofty demand, but it seems that the only history you want me to respect is the history that you have written, one rife with cheating and mass abuse.

I respect that particularly tawdry bit of history by doing my best to avoid it, not by gutting the spirit of the game by cutting everyone down to a level playing field and throwing my hands in the air to say GO! That results in pack mentality, as we've seen many times and ends in a simple counting game. We got 8 they got 6... KILL!

Instead, I choose to romanticize and remember the good times of this game. The selfless acts by countless players, throwing their characters at the enemy to save their homeland or their family. The touching scenes with a wife cooking her soldier husband dinner and they sit down to discuss the day's events, or local gossip. The bard chasing after another man's girlfriend (No. I've not forgotten that, Brian! *fun stuff*). Men weeping in the tavern at a bard's tale or song that remembers their dead comrades. Bards being bigger than life and entertaining players only to sweep away and bet talked about for a month. Huge, larger than life characters, that just sweep you away with their amazing roleplay. Setheren anyone?

That is the history that I look to and respect.


Songweaver wrote:- Create higher RPP roles. It's really strange that there are only roles up to 2RPP. Why spend time creating unique elf gear for one player, and ignore the 20 players that are between 3-5RPP?

These are planned, yes. The bulk of the time spent on those items was Brian's, not ours.

Songweaver wrote:- Standardize specialized roles. Wargs had a lot of potential. Strong documentation, great initial players. But, unlike the elf (who was immediately the most powerful PC in the game), wargs were weaker than 0RPP human characters with pquality gear. Things like this make staff look like they favor one side over the other, so make sure that there are equal benefits and standardization for higher RPP characters.

Yes... wargs did kind of fall flat. It was my understanding that someone was balancing those out when I took my leave of absence around 3 months ago, but it ended up being one of those things that someone just talks about and then never does.

I would like to buff them up so they can stand their ground. I loved those wargs and think they deserve some strength, so long as they don't turn in to killing machines.

Some of the best damned rp I've seen so far in this game has come from wargs. (Don't get a big head, Songweaver, I only saw Ekkja once or twice). The rest of those that played wargs, and the few that continue to do so are simply awesome.

I want to protect those players, so they can actually roleplay with a group of humans, just like I want to protect the Sponsored Roles.

What I -really- wanted to do was turn wargs in to tanks with offensive power similar to a low-level human warrior so they could fight for a long time and then run away if needed. Unfortunately, I believe this would turn in to a WOW type system of wargs tanking for orcs and orcs setting aggressive to maximize PKs. I think there are a few that could handle the tank stats, but on the whole, without a Sponsored Role, I think it would end badly.

Songweaver wrote:- Find out who made the bad decisions of giving staff PCs larger-than-usual skillboosts, giving staff PCs uncraftable gear, and hold them accountable, particularly if it's someone who has proven to have this issue with giving unfair items to players multiple times. The part of this conversation that's most disconcerting to me is the fact that it doesn't seem like anyone's been held accountable for this stuff.


I dropped you a PM about this point, SW. I'm waiting on word back from you.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:35 am

Justanothacivy wrote:Yes, a group of six nameless orcs would run from an elf.

I'd like to think the orcs that have built a name for themselves are far more powerful. Not to mention the only elf they ran from was Legolas, an elven prince. Not exactly a fair comparison.


I don't mean this in a mean way, J, but I don't consider any 0 RPP orc to be much more than an average orc in Tolkien's writings. Sure... there are some who rise among themselves to be stronger than the others, but overall, just like humans, they are average in strength and skill.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:41 am

tehkory wrote:Bilbo, Thorin&co., and the Dragon as Invited Roles? Nty. I don't want to see players running these people on an invincible, set course that has zero standards or oversight. I don't want players to have them at all, but I'll draw my line on the bolded part.[/b]


This is my dream, tehkory, and like many dreams, it's probably a pipe dream. But I assure you, that if it did come to pass there would be all kinds of oversight to ensure they followed the rough script.

tehkory wrote:I want roles, items, and races to be standardized, and accountable, so *I* can check when Bob the Evil Admin starts changing things. That's why we have Compare, Evaluate, and examine, yeah? If the standards suck, I can leave because I don't like them upfront.

I understand what you're looking for here, Cory, I'm just not willing to give you every single thing you want.

tehkory wrote:Anyway. Haven's rebooting, and that's my greener pasture. Good luck with the vision of this game, but it's not one I can share. Thanks for being open with us, Nimrod.


Fair winds, Cory. It's been nice chatting with you. You're always welcome.
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Re: Trust

Postby cfelch » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:44 am

Nimrod wrote:
Justanothacivy wrote:Yes, a group of six nameless orcs would run from an elf.

I'd like to think the orcs that have built a name for themselves are far more powerful. Not to mention the only elf they ran from was Legolas, an elven prince. Not exactly a fair comparison.


I don't mean this in a mean way, J, but I don't consider any 0 RPP orc to be much more than an average orc in Tolkien's writings. Sure... there are some who rise among themselves to be stronger than the others, but overall, just like humans, they are average in strength and skill.


Aren't all orcs actually elves?
Corrupted elves...
But elves none the less.
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Re: Trust

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:48 am

As for players feeling it's cheating: Unfortunately that is a direct result of other games, not this one, and the mindset seems to have trickled over here. I've said it before... This isn't Atonement.


I think that's definitely part of it, the more that I look at it. A lot of people are definitely comparing what's going on now back to Atonement as if that was the standard for SOI, when that isn't true.

For me SoI will have races that are simply -better-. I'm ok with that. It conforms to the lore that I'm heavily invested in and creates the world I want to play in. I understand if it isn't for some people's tastes. I think the necessary part here is to outline what's going to happen, which it looks like you're doing, Nimrod. As long as people know the parameters, and it's clearly stated that there will be invitation roles and that they will be different and possibly better than what is available standard, then people have the information they need to decide whether they can live with that set up or not.
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Re: Trust

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:11 pm

cfelch wrote:Aren't all orcs actually elves?
Corrupted elves...
But elves none the less.


They are, but in their corruption they lost a great deal of the gifts that the elves had. The orcs were designed to be wholly subservient to a higher power, with little will beyond self preservation other than that. They were designed to be vessels for the direction of Melkor/Sauron but without being driven by a godly/angelic power they were strikingly pathetic. This is why at the end of Lord of the Rings when Sauron's attention is drawn from the battle before the Black Gate to Mount Doom, Sauron's army, which massively outnumbers the Army of the West, loses that evil will and is routed despite their huge numeric advantage.
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Re: Trust

Postby Melkor » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:11 pm

Brian wrote:
Songweaver wrote:
I really don't think that you'd feel good about that either, were the tables turned. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

Not saying that you did anything wrong, Brian. I don't think that these policies are good for the game, and I think that this thread goes a long way to suggest that even the players who are still around and haven't quit feel, very strongly, the same way.


Maybe that's it right there. I wouldn't feel badly if I got to roleplay with an amazing troll character that could crush my character in physical combat; I would consider it a pleasure to interact with them, and would really actively try to interact with them in as many ways as I could before we got to the smashing part. I would probably still try to escape and hopefully get away to do it again sometime.

Granted, at the time of this encounter my character's armor was broken. However, as the last encounter showed, when outnumbered at that kind of level, that character was far, far from unkillable.

My desire to try and RP first probably put my character at a large disadvantage. At the time of the character's death I didn't have a combat skill that was above talented because I almost never sparred or anything like that. If I had sparred daily from the beginning the character likely could have been far far more fearsome, but playing a character that could kill anything was not at all my intention or desire.


Wait a minute. My pc sparred with you quite a few times and he had adroit skills. You still mopped the floor with him, so I'm not buying that one.

Edit: Hmm, actually what songweaver said about the gear having large boosts could account for that. You were probably rolling at master levels.
Last edited by Melkor on Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Trust

Postby cfelch » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:16 pm

Brian wrote:
cfelch wrote:Aren't all orcs actually elves?
Corrupted elves...
But elves none the less.


They are, but in their corruption they lost a great deal of the gifts that the elves had. The orcs were designed to be wholly subservient to a higher power, with little will beyond self preservation other than that. They were designed to be vessels for the direction of Melkor/Sauron but without being driven by a godly/angelic power they were strikingly pathetic. This is why at the end of Lord of the Rings when Sauron's attention is drawn from the battle before the Black Gate to Mount Doom, Sauron's army, which massively outnumbers the Army of the West, loses that evil will and is routed despite their huge numeric advantage.


Sounds like the Borg if you ask me.
Driven by a hive mind.
Does Orc RP reflect this stance, or are they depicted as autonomous rabble rousers more akin to the Klingon?
Should the Orc sphere be more goal driven?
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Re: Trust

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:17 pm

Melkor wrote:Wait a minute. My pc sparred with you quite a few times and he had adroit skills. You still mopped the floor with him, so I'm not buying that one.


From four days before my character's death:

Code: Select all
Prowess: Amateur       Small-Blade: Talented       Long-Blade: Talented     
     Polearm: Familiar            Dodge: Familiar          Deflect: Familiar     
  Sole-Wield: Familiar       Dual-Wield: Familiar              Aim: Familiar     
       Sneak: Talented             Hide: Familiar          Hunting: Talented     
      Forage: Beginner        Education: Familiar         Shortbow: Talented     
      Dalish: Talented         Sindarin: Talented          Tengwar: Familiar     
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