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Trust

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Re: Trust

Postby Songweaver » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:24 pm

@Brian

Again, it had more to do with your stats and equipment than your natural skill levels. Those things are much more meaningful on this version of the engine than they were in old SOI.

As to our on-going, respectful debate: I don't see a reason to continue it. Nimrod's made it clear what will happen, moving forward.


@Nimrod

Actually, I responded to your PM quite a while ago. I'm actually waiting on your reply. :p

You've made yourself super clear on where you stand with these issues. Your position's a mistake, IMO, but it is your mistake to make.

Ultimately, you're the one responsible for the direction and health of SOI.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:07 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:I feel that anyone apping into these special roles should be able to enhance the game world with their roleplay alone, even without getting stat and equipment boosts far far above their RPP level. This would also remove the 'gamist' incentive, and keep it so that the people getting these roles were only there because they loved the character concept. This would also remove the feelings of unfairness going on amidst the playerbase. If you had entered with 0 stat boosts, some decent skill boosts equivalent to what a high rpp player could get so you didn't have to worry about the grind, and some custom described equipment that were equivalent to what was currently craftable, you'd still probably be able to accomplish all of the positive things you had managed, and nobody would be able to cry unfairness.


This has already been proven false with the orc/elf conflict, RJ. The elf had some extra stuff at the time of this encounter, so he could survive the onslaught, but the orcs failed to engage in any roleplay at all.

If they refuse to engage in roleplay with a boosted elf, what makes you think they'll engage in roleplay with a less powerful elf?

When would they roleplay with an elf? When they realize that their chasing down the elf and hitting him at every opportunity will not result in a kill, when they realize that they MUST roleplay with the elf to engage in any prolonged melee.

It's either this...

... hit flee chase hit flee chase hit flee chase...

or this...

... roleplay followed by melle that lasts a while that could possibly end up with the capture or death of the elf.

The ONLY thing we're taking away from you as a player is the ability to set the guided missiles for the PK and force it. A good sponsored role elf will give you the melee in return for the roleplay if the situation warrants it. You'll also be rewarded with him fleeing and waiting for you to close to re-engage after some roleplay as well so you can roleplay the whole scene across several rooms of Mirkwood. (I've seen that exact thing between an elf and troll span a dozen rooms or more. It was a brilliant piece of team play.)

Boxing the enemy in within Mirkwood with the guard exit command is pretty crappy too, if the sponsored elf got away after working with you to roleplay and you pulled that, I would expect him to not try to engage you in RP again so soon.
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Re: Trust

Postby cfelch » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:16 pm

When the only goals left for them are pvp, and going strait to code is the established norm, you can't expect that norm to be broken overnight.
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Re: Trust

Postby radioactivejesus » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:25 pm

Nimrod wrote:This has already been proven false with the orc/elf conflict, RJ. The elf had some extra stuff at the time of this encounter, so he could survive the onslaught, but the orcs failed to engage in any roleplay at all.

If they refuse to engage in roleplay with a boosted elf, what makes you think they'll engage in roleplay with a less powerful elf?

When would they roleplay with an elf? When they realize that their chasing down the elf and hitting him at every opportunity will not result in a kill, when they realize that they MUST roleplay with the elf to engage in any prolonged melee.

It's either this...

... hit flee chase hit flee chase hit flee chase...

or this...

... roleplay followed by melle that lasts a while that could possibly end up with the capture or death of the elf.


I've told you this several times, but clearly you aren't listening. Firing arrows -is- initiating coded conflict and putting an end to the roleplay leading up to a conflict. Even Brian handled our discussions on the forums maturely about the state of archery and PVP, but you just plug your ears and screech about how terrible we are. You also, by your own admission, tried to tell the elf to retreat before we could get into the room, which would end roleplay by him simply escaping.

In the second PVP conflict I experienced with the elf, the one where you didn't almost PK one of our craft-goblins by shooting him with an invisible staff avatar, both sides stopped and emoted with eachother before one of the humans initiated combat a time where it felt natural to proceed to code to decide the results of our roleplay. It ended with one human being captured, and the others being wounded and fleeing out into the dark. Instead of executing our captive on the spot and giving us a very good chance at hunting down and killing the others (infravision+high tracking skills vs. blind fleeing PCs) we instead decided to take the hostage back to the clan hall so that we could give him the roleplayed death scene I felt he deserved. We're not all bloodthirsty twinks who only care about playerkilling like you seem to think. But I doubt you've even read this far
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Re: Trust

Postby radioactivejesus » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:38 pm

the low opinion you have of your playerbase feels pretty clear with that latest post, as well as the lengths you're willing to go to defend your own clique of favoured players.

[quote
Nimrod wrote:Boxing the enemy in within Mirkwood with the guard exit command is pretty crappy too, if the sponsored elf got away after working with you to roleplay and you pulled that, I would expect him to not try to engage you in RP again so soon.


The guarding of exits actually ended nearly the instant coded combat began. Seeing as how you're the head staffer, you should probably know how guard works. It takes 3 people guarding each exit for it to actually work, and anyone who's being engaged by an enemy can no longer guard. Boxing the enemy in is the only way of going 'hey. You're not able to spam-flee off like most players do. You need to stay and roleplay, and if you want to escape, you won't do so without a fight.'
But of course since it happened to a player you like, you will call it crappy roleplay, and say that we're all terrible twinks who should never be RPed with again. You should know that at least 70% of encounters in this game end in a player sprinting off before I can even get a single emote out. In my mind, that's no different from insta-attacking the second you see an enemy.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:41 pm

Songweaver wrote:@Nimrod

Actually, I responded to your PM quite a while ago. I'm actually waiting on your reply. :p


Just checked PM's, read yours.

I am responsible for the elf boosts. The boosts were quite modest.

I'm more curious about the fact that you believe you know the facts of the situation when you're not on staff. i.e. you state that someone was boosted beyond the 2 RPP limit for boosts. I would like to know where you get your information.

Songweaver wrote:You've made yourself super clear on where you stand with these issues. Your position's a mistake, IMO, but it is your mistake to make.

Ultimately, you're the one responsible for the direction and health of SOI.

I think you may be over-estimating the number of allies you have in this, SW, and I appreciate the fact that you may consider my actions a mistake. It is a vocal few who have doubts it seems. Only time will tell.

I am being forthright in the plan and am unapologetic for my decisions. They are mine alone.

We embarked upon this project around 2 years ago and have been open to players for what? A year? No matter how things feel to players, how 'open' the game may feel, we are still in Alpha. We are ironing out a lot of details, building lots of things and moving forward.

Players can make their own choice to play or not play. With the feedback that I've been getting via PM and the number of players in-game this very minute, I think we'll be just fine. As I've stated before, player numbers are not important to me. Building a beautiful gameworld and empowering players to bring the world to life is what my clear focus is. My plan is not a complex one, it is extremely simple and it will remain so until I step down.

When it comes to players, our main focus is on those that wish to play the deeper, longer-lived characters. The quiet crafts, politicians, bards, etc... Of course soldiers / orcs will always be a part of the game, and are a much loved role (my personal favorite). There are many avenues for these players to take right now, and eventually there will be even more.

The killer types are welcome as well, we just won't be catering to them as has been done in the past. They will be welcome with open arms, anyone who has questioned my intent or screamed and yelled claiming I am in the wrong is always welcome to come back and play.

I hold no grudges on this matter.
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Re: Trust

Postby Songweaver » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:53 pm

I'm not just talking about the elf stuff. There are more recent, currently living examples of what I'm talking about in terms of boosts/equipment/etc. I know that you know this, because I've come to you privately (and recently) about it.

I do not, however, feel inclined to play the info origins game. I just am not confident that doing so would result in anything good for anybody.

I love SOI. I even think that most of its staff seem like pretty swell people (as people). I always thought that you were a very strong RPA, Nimrod.

But, for me - after seeing your reactions to this thread - I'm done. I held on longer than what was probably right, because none of the other similar games out there really appeal to me (they all have their own equally bad or worse issues) --- and I really dug having a place to just be a player for a change.

That place just can't be SOI for me, anymore. I really don't like the direction that it's headed.

That said, you still have my best wishes for its success.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:57 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:the low opinion you have of your playerbase feels pretty clear with that latest post, as well as the lengths you're willing to go to defend your own clique of favoured players.


My mentioning the use of the guard command is not directed at any specific player, RJ. It seems I'm being held to a different standard than everyone else with this and I'm not sure how to react to it. I have been attacked from every angle in this thread by many different voices, but I don't lose faith. Why should my pointing that one thing out in a post cause such pain?

Orcs exist because I demanded them when we first started this venture. I would not take part unless the sphere was allowed. I have a huge soft spot for orcs, because I know there are a LOT of them that can give some awesome pvp play and have defended their actions many times in the past.

And let's get another thing straight, there is no clique of favored players. You have been supported a lot, by me, and others in your in-game role. Would that make you part of that non-existent clique?

Just where do you draw the line? When does the assistance I give a player cross over in to cheating? Is it two steps beyond what assistance you have gotten?

This is why I insist on some control, because some would say that you have gained many things through my cheating to give you things that they have not received. But I would vehemently object and point out that RJ has worked his arse off to get these things and the things he has gotten are to help other people roleplay and provide color throughout the orcish gameworld.

So please, don't get all bent out of shape and assume that I think little of you or any orc players. Orcs, when they are played with gusto, common sense and a focus on proper roleplay, are the absolute most fun characters to play and admin for. It's when players give up the focus on GOOD roleplay that bad things happen, when players get frustrated because they can't PK someone, so take matters in to their own hands and gang up on a char and kill them with little rp.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:04 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:The guarding of exits actually ended nearly the instant coded combat began. Seeing as how you're the head staffer, you should probably know how guard works. It takes 3 people guarding each exit for it to actually work, and anyone who's being engaged by an enemy can no longer guard. Boxing the enemy in is the only way of going 'hey. You're not able to spam-flee off like most players do. You need to stay and roleplay, and if you want to escape, you won't do so without a fight.'
But of course since it happened to a player you like, you will call it crappy roleplay, and say that we're all terrible twinks who should never be RPed with again. You should know that at least 70% of encounters in this game end in a player sprinting off before I can even get a single emote out. In my mind, that's no different from insta-attacking the second you see an enemy.


This is why I should read the whole post before replying. When I mentioned the guard command, I was not referring to the incident that you now are, which, I'm really not sure who we're talking about to be blunt. I was going way back to the old days of the Eastern Garrison in my mind to remember that kind of stuff going on, though I know there have been complaints since then somewhere along the way.

I wasn't calling it crappy roleplay because it happened to a player that you say I liked. (It never fails to amaze me that each person I try to defend ends up being a person that I like, that's just not true. I defend anyone whom I believe is being given a raw deal.)

I'm actually rather impressed to hear that 30% of your encounters actually involve some roleplay rather than someone just sprinting off. But sad to hear that you consider that just as bad as hitting them as soon as you come in the room without an emote. I hope you will work on that and strive to roleplay with people and be -the- one that breaks the mold rather than the one that propagates the problem.
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Re: Trust

Postby crayon » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:12 pm

Disclaimer: I do not actively play Shadows of Isildur. I wish the best for the game, its staff, and its players, but I've played just long enough to ascertain that it's not for me. I am, however, invested in the success of the OpenRPI engine, and want to see the community thrive, so I tend to drop by on occasion to read posts and check the temperature around here, so to speak. Sometimes Kory will mention discussion going on or ask me about game mechanics and I'll pop by to take a look.

Nimrod wrote:- There is an unnatural fixation on stats along with making sure that each and every character falls within a standard that you believe is fair. More often than not, fair seems to be not having anyone in game that has better stats than you.


Nimrod wrote:The problem is with the upper tier, the Invited Roles. Being able to boost these players to levels that allow them to actively perform their duties immediately is what I'm balking at when it comes to all of your (collective) suggestions for rules and standards.


I think this obsession and fixation with stats and mechanics goes both ways here, and that's something that's been overlooked in this discussion. If players require a certain degree of statistical inflation in order to tell a story on your game, then you've got bigger things to be worried about than standardization. Moreover, points regarding standardization only grow in merit because if your ability to tell a meaningful story is bound to your capability to do the things you need to with code, then granting access to statistics outside the expected range of what your usual character is likely to achieve is tantamount to telling the playerbase that you can only tell a grassroots story if staff taps you on the shoulder to do it. You're shooting yourself in the foot, and that's concerning! Either statistics aren't important, and people shouldn't care how standardized or subjective boosts are for invited roles, but those roles shouldn't need them, really, anyhow, or they are important, and you can't really feign surprise when players are concerned about subjective boosts.

Nimrod wrote:I don't mean this in a mean way, J, but I don't consider any 0 RPP orc to be much more than an average orc in Tolkien's writings. Sure... there are some who rise among themselves to be stronger than the others, but overall, just like humans, they are average in strength and skill.


I think that's a mistake! Directly limiting and tying a character's ability to effect their world, and essentially, their player's agency, based on the character's race or RPP-on-creation is a bad idea. In some ways it reflects the sort of 'lumping together of things' that you eloquently argued against so many posts back, but even setting that point aside, it's just bad for player agency. You want players to feel empowered to tell stories, and that's hard to do if the only way you can tell a story is if staff taps you on the shoulder, loads up gear that sets you far outside of the normal statistical bounds, and sends you out to play. Was Boromir an 'average human'? Was Gimli an exceptional warrior because he was a dwarf, or because he was an exceptional warrior? Think about it a fair bit. While most of the elves directly portrayed in Tolkien's works are outstanding combatants, do you think that's because they're elves, or because most of the characters that warrant extensive portrayal in Tolkien's works are, in some way, exceptional (except for the hobbits which tend to be exceptionally normal).

bjg2k1us wrote:Making standards that are visible and enforceable - not just for roles, but for staff PCs, items, behavior, and all the rest of it - is not some impossible task; it's merely inconvenient to do, and then even more inconvenient to adhere to when you suddenly decide you want to do something different. But if you're going to pretend to have rules at all, it is important. Trust doesn't really enter into it, except insofar as you'll have none amongst the players if you decide that such things aren't really important or worth your time.


This is actually pretty on point, and while I certainly am not going to take the time to write up an example, there's absolutely nothing keeping staff here from laying out a set of rules for each case and following them to the letter. You could lay out rules for RPP, stats, races, and skill boosts up to eight or even ten or twelve RPP. You could announce invited roles (as I saw Rishte did, in another post!), so that everybody has an opportunity to apply, take the application staff feels is best. You could give RPP boosts to invitation characters even if the player doesn't have RPP. There are plenty of standardized approaches that will allow you to do exactly what you need to do without alienating players, without loading obscenely overpowered gear, and without making players feel like they lack agency and an ability to tell their own stories, and I think the abundance of different solutions to this is part of why people are getting soured by the suggestion that subjective decision-making absent standards is the only answer.

Nimrod wrote:The Invited Role character is expected to be above reproach in every situation, patiently deal with pvp conflict, set the example at all times, avoid pk whenever possible (within reason), and avoid the dreaded 'payback kills' for not engaging in roleplay, but instead instant attacks.

If the elf has the ability to interact with, and survive an attack by a handful of orcs, then he is able to help set the tone through roleplay, and if the orcs don't take part and insist on going to combat, he can get away to offer a chance at roleplay in the next room, just as was done with the infamous arrow scene we've been discussing elsewhere.


This problem has nothing to do with races, roles, RPP, elves, Brian, orcs, or really much of anything but combat code and conflict on the RPI engine and the game systems as a whole lacking proper incentivization or requirement of roleplay to go hand-in-hand with code. You have a point regarding giving players a model for roleplay-intensive conflict, but I think the approach is far off of the mark. Moreover, why should an invited role telling a story receive some sort of protection and extra consideration vis a vis PK twinks that a grassroots player with zero RPP and no contact with staff doesn't? Besides, don't you want everybody to handle PvP with grace and a focus on storytelling?

Nimrod wrote:If they refuse to engage in roleplay with a boosted elf, what makes you think they'll engage in roleplay with a less powerful elf?


From what I've heard of the situation, didn't the orcs RP-lessly respond to an RP-less engagement via archery? It's kind of silly to expect somebody to get shot and then walk in and immediately pull back from code to get to roleplay on this codebase, unfortunately. Moreover, I think this is a universal problem that has nothing to do with boosted elves versus less-powerful elves. Frankly, if people refuse to engage in roleplay alongside conflict with anybody you have problems. Only addressing this issue in the specific case of invited roles and elves is just really bad design/administration. No offense in that, I imagine you're trying to get people to do the best thing for story, and it's like herding cats, but there are good ideas and there are bad ideas.

Addressing some other, more tangential points of contention...

Onasaki wrote:What you're trying to do is make a family friendly environment, on a game that's not family friendly, has never been family friendly, and will never be family friendly.

We're all adults here. We're not 8, 9, 10 years old. We're not 13. And to be fair, to be HONEST and REALISTIC? Anyone who is? Sees ten times worse. On TV. In Movies. In life.


Actually, the casual mistreatment of Tolkien that I assume comes from a large number of players is a big part of the reason I could never get into Shadows of Isildur. I hate to break it to you, but Middle Earth is not Dark Fantasy, and foul words with real life corollaries like the one I understand was banned are pretty inappropriate to the setting or theme. I grew up reading Tolkien. A lot of his unfinished works. The Silmarillion. His epic poems. Tolkien is holy ground to me. Sacred. Except for that one time I took sleeping pills and spent several hours trying to convince Kory that the dwarves are a horrible anti-semitic allegory. Nonetheless, suffice it to say that it's something I can't watch people urinate on without getting queasy. Even the prospect of people casually mudsexing in the barracks on a Tolkien game makes me a little sick to my stomach, and I don't have much of anything against mudsex, really.

Onasaki wrote:J. R. R. Tolkien has probably rolled in his [EDITED BY NIMROD FOR OFFENSIVE LANGAGE] grave, forty times over.


I'm sure he has, but probably not for the reasons you think.

Brian wrote:but playing a character that could kill anything was not at all my intention or desire.


It sounds like you've not had an especially good time of it, between what happened and the way it's continuously been brought up in OOC channels, and that really sucks. I hope you're not taking anybody's complaints personally, because while I've never (to my knowledge) played with you, it sounds like you're a pretty exceptional dude. I saw you linked your skills to try to help people with some context, and I figured I'd try and offer some insight into the mechanics.

Gear is significantly more important than skills on the engine. Probably/possibly moreso, even, on Shadows of Isildur than it was on Parallel or Atonement, and thus quite subtantively beyond the relevance gear might have played on SoI-of-Old. Stats are also fairly important, and moderately more important than skills. Skill boosts that come from gear will not show up in your skills, but will effect the outcome of your rolls. The two biggest factors in combat are AC and damage, and offering significant advantages in either one on gear that is completely inaccessible via conventional means in-game can range from making a character capable of taking on 2-4 veteran PCs without much trouble to making a character capable of taking on 5 veteran PCs with their weapon sheathed set at 50% effort, sometimes, in the specific case of boosted armor.

The point's been made that balance isn't something we really expect out of Shadows of Isildur, or Tolkien, and that's a pretty valid point to make, but we're not talking about elves being better, or trolls being better, etc. That can all be reflected with stats or RPP-style skill boosts. What people have been griping about is characters coming into the game with gear boosted to exceptional levels, and on this codebase that's a HUGE deal. It can be downright gamebreaking. Effectively, there's a difference between an elven warrior that even 3-5 orcs would think twice about attacking because he may kill one or two before escaping, and an elven warrior that can wipe the floor with the entire orc sphere.

In this particular case, it sounds like staff realized mistakes were made in terms of the statistics on the first iteration of gear given to Brian's character, and have since gained a better insight into mechanics and balance, but they haven't really considered the possibility that like skill boosts and stat boosts from RPP roles or races, gear could easily enough be standardized. There's really no viable argument against standardization across the board. I mean, it's as simple as attributing skills, stats, and tiers of gear to different RPP values, and then defining the RPP value of an invited role when you post about it. Hell, you could post a request for applications to play an elf intending to take Brian from the get-go, and I don't think the majority of people would mind so much, so long as all applications were read, considered, and responded to regardless.
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Re: Trust

Postby MrT2G » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:19 pm

Personally, I expect very little from the Staff currently. I may not always come across this way because I try to strive to create action IC and sometimes this means asking for things only Staffers can do, but I never feel like I am entitled to actually getting said things. If I am told the Staff's time is better spent elsewhere, so be it.

This is Alpha. I fully believe creating content in game should be the players' responsibility. Testing and challenging policies and code should also be part of the Player's responsibility. The Staff responsibilities should include considering the Players' input, developing crafts, the game world, code and other back end things, and acting as a neutral mediator as necessary. By and large, this is what I've seen of the Staff here. Still, more transparency is always better, especially when it comes to RPP roles, races, and boosts.

The Staff, as a whole, must strive to be fair and treat everyone as equally and fairly as possible. I know I've lost PCs to actions which I still feel negatively about, believe were unfair, targeted, and never fully rectified. Regardless, I still play and intend to continue playing. Favoring the few over the many is what killed the original SOI in my opinion. This is a lesson that should never be forgotten.

Mistakes have been made. Mistakes will likely be made again. What I hope is that the Staff and Players are able to learn from said mistakes, develop stronger policies together, and prevent them from being made again. So far, from my limited perspective, this is what has happened.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:19 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:I've told you this several times, but clearly you aren't listening. Firing arrows -is- initiating coded conflict and putting an end to the roleplay leading up to a conflict. Even Brian handled our discussions on the forums maturely about the state of archery and PVP, but you just plug your ears and screech about how terrible we are. You also, by your own admission, tried to tell the elf to retreat before we could get into the room, which would end roleplay by him simply escaping.


Lots of stuff in that paragraph. Firing arrows, as far as I'm concerned is not a green light for you to go on a purely code search and destroy mission.

I've not plugged my ears, RJ. I believe I stated in the public forum that I was going to have our weapon and armor team take a look at that very thing. I spoke directly with Grommit last night and asked him to float a proposal on how best to balance this.

I listened to and have taken Matt's advice about staff firing arrows to heart and said that I will avoid that in the future.

I believe I'm being fairly mature about my responses.

And now you're using conjecture to justify your position. The echo I tried to send to him before the group of orcs arrived on scene was fully justified and I would have to guess, but I feel it's a pretty solid bet, that even if you would have waited to charge in to the room, that the elf would not have simply run off. He may have hidden, or sneaked away a single room, but he would not have broken contact to end the scene. (I myself am using an assumption there, but it is based on past experiences - perhaps Brian can provide more detail).

radioactivejesus wrote:In the second PVP conflict I experienced with the elf, the one where you didn't almost PK one of our craft-goblins by shooting him with an invisible staff avatar, both sides stopped and emoted with eachother before one of the humans initiated combat a time where it felt natural to proceed to code to decide the results of our roleplay. It ended with one human being captured, and the others being wounded and fleeing out into the dark. Instead of executing our captive on the spot and giving us a very good chance at hunting down and killing the others (infravision+high tracking skills vs. blind fleeing PCs) we instead decided to take the hostage back to the clan hall so that we could give him the roleplayed death scene I felt he deserved. We're not all bloodthirsty twinks who only care about playerkilling like you seem to think. But I doubt you've even read this far
[/quote][/quote]

I congratulate you for a lovely scene. Don't you want more of those?

No, your snark is not flying by, RJ. I read the whole thing and understand that the scene was not the one where I almost killed your crafter.

I appreciate you pointing that out. Again.

Yep... that was a little bit of sarcasm right back at you.

The hostility that you're presenting is quite unusual, RJ. We've spoken a lot in game before I took my leave of absence and I don't recall any of this kind of angst.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:26 pm

Songweaver wrote:I do not, however, feel inclined to play the info origins game. I just am not confident that doing so would result in anything good for anybody.


The game being played here is by you, Songweaver. Your lecturing the rest of us about rules and regulations and fairness pale in the dim light of the issue above.

Either you are friends with a current, or former administrator who is feeding you information, or you are lying.

Either way we have a major problem and you've lost all credibility with me on this subject.
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Re: Trust

Postby twitchyweasel » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:27 pm

You've completely disregarded all of our concerns. You told us not to worry about stats, skills, and eq and yet tell is you'll continue to grant just those things to who you see fit. That causes angst. You took a huge break and then stepped in and took charge, oblivious to the concerns of your playerbase.

I like Brian, and his elf was roleplayed well, save for following a warg. But that elf was basically his only character. He hasn't been IG since he died, yeah? You're ostracizing players who put in hours a day, and giving bitching equipment and skills to someone who won't even roll another PC after his special snowflake died.
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Re: Trust

Postby twitchyweasel » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:36 pm

Also you haven't got back to me about that uncraftable staff gear that is still IG, Nim.
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Re: Trust

Postby Songweaver » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:41 pm

Nimrod wrote:
Songweaver wrote:I do not, however, feel inclined to play the info origins game. I just am not confident that doing so would result in anything good for anybody.


The game being played here is by you, Songweaver. Your lecturing the rest of us about rules and regulations and fairness pale in the dim light of the issue above.

Either you are friends with a current, or former administrator who is feeding you information, or you are lying.

Either way we have a major problem and you've lost all credibility with me on this subject.


My unwillingness to throw <insert person or persons> under the bus doesn't negate the truth or the natural credibility of the truth. I'm not outing any staff PCs here, and I'm not pointing fingers directly at any specific living characters on the forum. I've come to you in private to support the issues that a lot of good players are stating that they have in this thread.

I want SOI to not have these issues, because I can't have fun playing a game with these issues. I'm just not wired to. I take ethics very seriously -- and, maybe, too seriously. That's on me.

I want SOI to fix its problems (instead of perpetuating them) before the launch of Laketown, because I want to see Laketown succeed and don't believe that it will on its current course. Maybe I'm wrong? I'm not always right.

I want you to succeed, personally, Nimrod. I always have. I've contributed an awful lot to SOI3, and you know that.

I'm not playing any games. You can choose to believe that I am if that makes it easier to disregard everything that I've said.
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Re: Trust

Postby Hawkwind » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:11 pm

^*is waiting for you and your 'clan' to begin shamelessly adverting your new, dynamic, amazing, horizontal-sideways, badge-awarding new game that will progress and lift the bar blah blah blah me me me sw sw sw sw.
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Re: Trust

Postby Bones » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:16 pm

Honestly, I'm waiting for him to leave.. He said he was done...

If he doesn't leave, doesn't that make him a liar?
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Re: Trust

Postby Hawkwind » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:20 pm

Songweaver wrote:take ethics very seriously -- and, maybe, too seriously. That's on me


You are a borderline self-endluging narccist, you have no ethics. From the time you aired all of the dirty laundry on a little blog, used your 'connections' to get a barge fort, use every god damn available chance to remind people who you have played, what games you staffed on, what documentation you wrote, and more besides.
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Re: Trust

Postby Songweaver » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:24 pm

Last edited by Songweaver on Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trust

Postby Bones » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:24 pm

Quiet SW. You said you were done. That means no clapping.
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Re: Trust

Postby cfelch » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:33 pm

Songweaver wrote:I'm not playing any games. You can choose to believe that I am if that makes it easier to disregard everything that I've said.


SoI is still a game right?
Every point ever made was an argument.
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Re: Trust

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:45 pm

Thanks for that post crayon; I feel like it encapsulated a lot of the points that people have been trying to make in a way that is a little bit de-escalated from where things have gone to here.

crayon wrote:It sounds like you've not had an especially good time of it, between what happened and the way it's continuously been brought up in OOC channels, and that really sucks. I hope you're not taking anybody's complaints personally


Thanks for that too; thankfully I am completely isolated from OOC channels (save what happens on the forums, which has been reasonable enough) so I wouldn't know what's being said; nice things I hope...

:lol:

Good to know about the effect of equipment and stats as well. I know extremely little about the code, and am constantly surprised at how so many players know the inner workings of it. Perhaps everyone who is now a player has been an admin at some point on old SoI/Atonement/Parallel by now except for me?
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Re: Trust

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:46 pm

To try and keep this going in a forward direction I'm going to summarize what I can glean as the major repeated questions that I've seen, including what I think has been said definitively about them and perhaps you can answer the remaining questions directly?

1) Special Roles: Chosen by players at chargen, open to everyone with the requisite RPP
- Standardized skill boosts for each level of RPP from 1 to whatever upper tier level exists
- what will these skill boosts actually be?
- will these characters receive only equipment that is currently craftable, or will upper tier characters receive items that are not yet craftable but are part of planned future crafts?

2) Requested Roles - Suggested by players and application made to staff. (May morph in to a Sponsored Role if deemed appropriate)
- will requested roles follow the same level of boosting as special roles, unless they're upgraded to sponsored roles?
- will equipment guidelines be the same?

3) Sponsored Roles (Invite only) - These are the high-level roles that we invite players to fill privately (or via public announcement) to fill a specific need within the gameworld.
- will skill boost decisions here be made at discretion of staff and on a per case basis?
- will equipment decisions be the same?

4) Races: Exist currently but have only been given as sponsored roles by invitation.
- will racial stat boosts be standardized and if so, will they be made public?
- what are the required RPP for the special races, will they cost RPP or only have an RPP required amount?
- are these races now open for anyone to apply to through a requested application?

5) Uncraftable Equipment: There would appear to be some floating around IG right now that people are concerned about. It also seems like Nimrod has specifically spoken with Grommit already to ask him to look at things like elven items, things that a seperate special role character got, etc. to see if these line up with the design standards.
- will future characters taking RPP roles be supplied with items that are not currently craftable?
- will special or invite only characters be released equipment that will eventually be released but has not been released yet?

To my eyes those seem to be the major things that are coming up again and again. It sounds like people would be glad to see what the standards are in these areas, have it clearly laid out, and then decide if they're able to tolerate those standards.
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Re: Trust

Postby Grommit » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:12 pm

twitchyweasel wrote:Also you haven't got back to me about that uncraftable staff gear that is still IG, Nim.


I think Nimrod addressed this when he said that sometimes items are built (easy) in advance of making full crafts for them (harder). I think the real concern is what I'm going to say below about the items that you can't get IG being BETTER so that no one else can get them without staff support. And being on the whole quite valuable when loaded as part of a generous starting kit.

crayon wrote:In this particular case, it sounds like staff realized mistakes were made in terms of the statistics on the first iteration of gear given to Brian's character, and have since gained a better insight into mechanics and balance, but they haven't really considered the possibility that like skill boosts and stat boosts from RPP roles or races, gear could easily enough be standardized. There's really no viable argument against standardization across the board. I mean, it's as simple as attributing skills, stats, and tiers of gear to different RPP values, and then defining the RPP value of an invited role when you post about it. Hell, you could post a request for applications to play an elf intending to take Brian from the get-go, and I don't think the majority of people would mind so much, so long as all applications were read, considered, and responded to regardless.


Gear HAS been standardized, by Icarus et. al and it's in good shape now. There's no accidentally twink gear anymore as far as I'm aware of. We have trash, poor quality (pqual), ordinary quality (oqual), good quality (gqual), and superb quality (squal), and the variety of armors and such are appropriately categorized. I was on the port after Brian's elf was a lawnmower to Lufus, and investigated the armor. It had been intended to be really good leather gear, but it was built wrong. We now have proper quality tier guidelines to set AC properly. It was better than our current best armor, riveted mail. It was quickly booted down to oqual, and identical quality armor is showing up in game via master crafting, lacking only the purely cosmetic decorations of the original.

Instead, I think the issue that I am hearing is rather what crayon says here, about what quality level of gear can be loaded for which roles and whether it should be tied to RPP, e.g.

Experienced Warrior 2 RPP
- +15, +10, +5 to three separate combat skills
- oqual weapon, pqual armor

Hardened Veteran Warrior 4 RPP
- +20, +15, +10 to three separate combat skills
- gqual weapon, oqual armor

Or something.

You guys want this to be strictly defined and kept to, and then you would be happy?

Nimrod's vinter could trade the armor slots for a certain publicly defined amount of coin worth of supplies and tools, etc?

Or would you also accept if a special role said:

Seeking Silvan Elf, all applications considered, will start with oqual leathers, gqual sword and gqual bow, +10 to forage, +10 sneak, +10 hide?

I think the 'non-craftable' is a bit of a red herring, in that the elf-flavored version of the oqual leathers will probably remain uncraftable unless we get elven crafters in our game world for some reason instead of back home with the King because it doesn't make sense for humans to make it, but that's no longer a problem now that it's speced to a standard level and we can make something equivalent in stats. What really matters, I think, is when something is non-craftable and BETTER than what you can get, so there's absolutely no way to get gear that good except have it loaded for you to start with. Exaggerated rumors aside, there are no longer characters walking around with gear so good no one can make its equal, with the exception of there not being crafts yet for gqual bows (we have them for oqual, one step down) or for archery gloves (relevant crafter people: submit MCs and help us get these crafts in-game).
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