It is currently Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:36 am
Change font size

General Discussion

Trust

Discuss game issues here.

Moderator: Elder Staff

Re: Trust

Postby Brian » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:23 pm

I hope you aren't skewered seirza, because I think your perspective as someone who is interested in the game, playing it, buut isn't heavily invested in the history that goes back before this incarnation of the game even existed is extremely valuable. Thank you for making a thoughtful contribution to the topic.
User avatar
Brian
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:56 pm

Re: Trust

Postby tehkory » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:23 pm

seirza wrote:A newbie enters the fray!
...

Welcome, and all!

It's great to have a new perspective.

RE: Getting attacked, honestly this has been a pretty civil thread, except for some obvious trolls we stopped feeding. I've come out of it with a pretty newfound respect, if not agreement, for a lot of people in the community! I doubt you'll get shut down, or any of the other ten dozen bad things you suggested would happen.

RE: Transparency, I never wanted to know everything the Admins were doing. I just wanted to know a general, basic plan, and for me those basics were outlined, or I at least discovered they weren't going to be outlined. Transparency isn't an all-or-nothing, though opaqueness certainly can be.

RE: 'Not currently playing,' that's something of a silly argument. I've had a PC on one game I put 150 days of playtime into over less than a year(how my marriage survived, you'd have to ask my wife), and others have put literal YEARS of playtime into their PCs on another iteration of this same game. Not currently playing--or not currently playing much--has less weight than you'd think, at least in my eyes.

RE: Forgiveness, there's nobody on Staff I really need to forgive, though there are some some people do. But I think the bigger concern is that many of the current Staff might not be here next month--even Nimrod took a good month-or-two break. That happens. When it comes to standards, rules, etc., I'm concerned more with tomorrow than today.

Anyway, welcome to the forums at a particularly chaotic time. Hope you're enjoying the game and all.

ETA:
"I'll probably get downvoted/attacked/etc., but..." is a pretty common start to a lot of arguments, and generally the wrong start. It puts any disagreements on the wrong foot to begin with. That's the only thing I'll skewer you on.
tehkory
Master Ent
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:21 pm

Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:48 pm

seirza wrote:A newbie enters the fray!


Thank you for having the courage to enter the fray, Seirza. Your post was extremely well-written and hits the nail on the head regarding many of the things I'm trying to convey.

I hope you continue to enjoy the game.
The greatest enemy to propaganda or even counter-propaganda is open, unadulterated channels of free opinion.
User avatar
Nimrod
Game Lead
 
Posts: 5425
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:51 pm

Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:37 pm

tehkory wrote:RE: Forgiveness, there's nobody on Staff I really need to forgive, though there are some some people do. But I think the bigger concern is that many of the current Staff might not be here next month--even Nimrod took a good month-or-two break. That happens. When it comes to standards, rules, etc., I'm concerned more with tomorrow than today.


A lovely post, Cory, I'm snipping the above because I think it's super-important.

You're right that there are no guarantees. Many times a game has delved in to huge expansion or changes, only to have the next administration scrap everything because they think they can do better and try to fix it. Staff members become burned out and leave, rage quit, or worse just fade in to the woodwork never to be seen again. We've had all of those things happen already in this iteration of SoI and we've only been working on it for about two years.

One of the things that I'm trying to do is to get staff members to document, document, document, as well as seek a shared vision so we can continue moving forward should I, or any other staff member leave, or take a bit of time off. I try very hard to make sure that the things I'm working on can be picked up by someone else if I get hit by a bus.

It's a morbid thought, but we would be remiss if we did not attempt to address the issue and make plans.

I actively encourage staff members to 'take some time off', just as I did for a bit less than 3 months. We should be able to cover for these folks, and me, with no problem. I chose a poor time to take some time off because the game is still in its infancy, but I don't regret the decision. I've come back stronger and more determined than ever and I'm feeling great about the direction we're moving.

The idea of 'squeeze as much out of an admin as you can because they're going to burn out no matter what you do' is faulty. Not because we're not all going to burn out, (we will all, players and admins alike will reach overload at some point), but knowing that we can just take a step back and recover, rather than feeling like we must carry on no matter what is the better alternative. Pushing people who are amazingly active and letting themselves stretch themselves ever thinner is a disservice to the game and to the individual.

Instead, I want players and admins alike to play, build and admin at their own pace and know that when you are feeling overwhelmed and need some time off that you can without having to feel guilty about it. Putting pressure on people to show up and do things only creates problems, and the better admins will hold on with both hands as long as they can, talking themselves in to doing some things when they really don't feel like it. They reach burn out and then push themselves far beyond the point of return, and instead of talking to someone about it, they just fade away.

I seriously recommend taking some time off for both players and admins. Stop, smell the flowers, spend time with your family, put things in perspective and then, if you wish, come back to the game, knowing that you are welcome and wanted.

We hate to see people leave, and often joke about the fact that 'you'll be back', but it's true. We become overwhelmed with things and just need to get away. I'm down with that.

Currently we have three Elder Staff members. Frigga, Meneldor, and myself. If any one of us falls by the wayside, the other two can easily pick up the ball and run with it. This was not by accident. We originally started with four Elder Staffers, unfortunately Icarus felt it was his time to depart and we wish him well with no hard feelings. The overall vision for the game remains the same as it was 6 months ago. We carry on towards that goal.

What has changed is how we pursue that vision on a daily basis. I prefer the slow, methodical method, following the overall plan with a purpose and deep documentation so we can remain consistent. I prefer to concentrate on building the world itself while we're in Alpha rather than spending all of our time on rpts. I prefer to build a world that players can truly contribute to and create their own stories and play in the settings they wish, rather than writing a huge story plot that everyone in game must fall in line with. Players should not be depending on me, or any other members of staff, to tell them what they should be doing, or what plots they should be chasing.

We will have staff plots, staff-run rpts, but our main job, right this minute, is to complete the game world. We don't shirk from the animations and the smaller rpts and plots, those are fun to do and a welcome distraction from the everyday demands of building.

In the end, I don't want this game to be what I want it to be. I want it to be what everyone wants it to be, and we're working hard to give you that power by creating your own islands of play (pc-clans) and a well-defined map and background documentation for the many races that reside in the gameworld. I want players of all levels of lore knowledge to be able to play and contribute in a meaningful manner and we're working towards that end. Some may not appreciate the intricate detail of one of Frigga's posts about lore, or the fact that the name of a building was agonized over and has a meaning deeper than you would imagine, but many will see those things, and appreciate the game all the more knowing that we care.

I got a bit off track there, again. Sorry. But in the end, sure, this game could go away. I could go away, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

Unless I get hit by a bus.
The greatest enemy to propaganda or even counter-propaganda is open, unadulterated channels of free opinion.
User avatar
Nimrod
Game Lead
 
Posts: 5425
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:51 pm

Re: Trust

Postby bjg2k1us » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:04 pm

seirza wrote:A newbie enters the fray!
...



Forgiveness is fine, it's a wonderful thing. I think you'll find most people who play or have played this game are willing to give it - but they're also not wrong to ask questions like: what are you doing to make sure that some of these oft-repeated mistakes don't keep happening? I would say that the statements by staff about implementing standards are a positive result of this thread (though they may have actually been doing just that before the issue was even raised), and I appreciate that Nimrod especially has kept answering questions, even from some of the most acerbic critics.

However, to claim that this entire thread is nothing but complaints over a single incident is inaccurate. There have been numerous inconsistencies in how staff has documented and implemented this latest iteration of SOI, and much of the frustration stems from the fact that 'the elf' is but one in a long line of 'innocent misunderstandings' that could have been avoided with better standardization. Again, I appreciate that the discussion is happening, and look forward to seeing improvement.

What about the input from people not currently playing? Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but everything I've said is coming from someone who hasn't played in months. If that makes all my opinions on the direction of the game invalid, so be it. Staff can always ban my account if they feel that my opinions are unwarranted and unwanted; and if you choose to ignore anything or everything I'm saying because of that, that's entirely your decision. I would only say that having people who are still invested and interested in your game, even if they have reservations about playing it at the moment, is not actually a bad thing - provided they can still share their opinions without becoming toxic.



----



As to the side point about recurve bows and elves... while it's certainly possible that elves are more likely to use that style, and men another, I'd be disappointed to think that a) men simply couldn't make a recurve bow because the process is somehow a technical mystery only possessed by the most ancient of races, and b) that the 'elvish' quality of the craftsmanship of the Firstborn can be distilled down to things like 'they know how to recurve bows' or 'they use leaf-bladed swords', or any other mechanical attribute. Combining thought, purpose, and art in the creation of a thing... that is the 'elvish' trait that men call 'magic'.
User avatar
bjg2k1us
Dwarf Recruit
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:36 pm

Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:08 pm

Nice to see you posting, bjg2k1us. I'll comment on a few things from your text.

bjg2k1us wrote:Forgiveness is fine, it's a wonderful thing. I think you'll find most people who play or have played this game are willing to give it - but they're also not wrong to ask questions like: what are you doing to make sure that some of these oft-repeated mistakes don't keep happening? I would say that the statements by staff about implementing standards are a positive result of this thread (though they may have actually been doing just that before the issue was even raised), and I appreciate that Nimrod especially has kept answering questions, even from some of the most acerbic critics.


Yep... it was always our intent to publish a more comprehensive set of standards and rules. We've been discussing a lot of them behind the scenes, and I believe I mentioned earlier that one of the reasons that they've not been published yet is that it's just been lost in the shuffle. Not a very good excuse, but that's basically what's happened. We'll publish them when they're ready.

bjg2k1us wrote:However, to claim that this entire thread is nothing but complaints over a single incident is inaccurate. There have been numerous inconsistencies in how staff has documented and implemented this latest iteration of SOI, and much of the frustration stems from the fact that 'the elf' is but one in a long line of 'innocent misunderstandings' that could have been avoided with better standardization. Again, I appreciate that the discussion is happening, and look forward to seeing improvement.


I agree that there are many other inconsistencies. An inconsistency does not always mean that staff are cheating, or trying to pull a fast one. We're always looking to make the game a better place, and will continue to do so with sponsored roles.

One of my main pushes is for more consistency, specifically with staff interaction with players. There's nothing worse than a player being told X by one staff member only to be told Y by another. That particular bit of inconsistency comes from running too fast, and too loose. A problem that I have addressed and will continue to monitor.

Another inconsistency is simple documentation behind the scenes. We are working on that as well.

Being unable to simply say 'no' to players was another huge problem that we were struggling with. Trying to say yes to everything only leads to spreading yourself too thin and getting nothing done in the future. It pains us quite often, but sometimes you have to say no to great ideas. There are far too many great ideas out there for us to adopt them all.

I've also learned that simply stating what you're thinking about doing, or discussing ideas with players soon becomes a promise to them, even though you've not promised anything. We're learning to curb our enthusiasm and deal with the real.

bjg2k1us wrote:What about the input from people not currently playing? Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but everything I've said is coming from someone who hasn't played in months. If that makes all my opinions on the direction of the game invalid, so be it. Staff can always ban my account if they feel that my opinions are unwarranted and unwanted; and if you choose to ignore anything or everything I'm saying because of that, that's entirely your decision. I would only say that having people who are still invested and interested in your game, even if they have reservations about playing it at the moment, is not actually a bad thing - provided they can still share their opinions without becoming toxic.


I do not discount anyone's opinion just because they're not playing. If you're here, reading the forums and staying abreast of the situation, you have a right to comment. I may not always hear, because I tend to not keep up on the public forums, but over the last week I've been keeping up on a couple threads and doing my best to explain the situation.

No, I don't think it's a bad thing that people are interested and not playing. There's one reason or another that keeps them from playing, and we'd like to know those reasons. I'm not saying that we're going to try to get everyone back to playing by listening to and changing because of their complaints, but I do promise that we're working to make the game better and to be more consistent.


bjg2k1us wrote:----

As to the side point about recurve bows and elves... while it's certainly possible that elves are more likely to use that style, and men another, I'd be disappointed to think that a) men simply couldn't make a recurve bow because the process is somehow a technical mystery only possessed by the most ancient of races, and b) that the 'elvish' quality of the craftsmanship of the Firstborn can be distilled down to things like 'they know how to recurve bows' or 'they use leaf-bladed swords', or any other mechanical attribute. Combining thought, purpose, and art in the creation of a thing... that is the 'elvish' trait that men call 'magic'.


This is a point about lore, which I am not an expert in, though I know for a fact there are many players and staff members that would be happy to speak with you about this. Feel free to open a thread about it in the appropriate forum and state your opinion and ask for feedback.

Unfortunately, I am not the one to give the best feedback on this point.

Thanks again for posting. It's good to see you still lurking about.
The greatest enemy to propaganda or even counter-propaganda is open, unadulterated channels of free opinion.
User avatar
Nimrod
Game Lead
 
Posts: 5425
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:51 pm

Re: Trust

Postby bjg2k1us » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:53 pm

An inconsistency does not always mean that staff are cheating, or trying to pull a fast one.


I agree with this completely, and I think the call for standardization (from some of us, at least) is not borne out of a desire to stop 'those sneaky staffers' from cheating us all, as much as it is a desire to see things run more smoothly by knowing everyone is consistently working off of the same page.

I'm still looking forward to Laketown! :D
User avatar
bjg2k1us
Dwarf Recruit
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:36 pm

Re: Trust

Postby seirza » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:08 pm

tehkory wrote:ETA:
"I'll probably get downvoted/attacked/etc., but..." is a pretty common start to a lot of arguments, and generally the wrong start. It puts any disagreements on the wrong foot to begin with. That's the only thing I'll skewer you on.

Duly noted and taken to heart in a positive way. I'll be sure to just jump in from now on.


bjg2k1us wrote:However, to claim that this entire thread is nothing but complaints over a single incident is inaccurate.


But I didn't claim that. What I said was that 70% of the thread was repeatedly referencing a single incident, and that as an outsider, it lead me to believe the incident was more the problem than other things brought up. And I stand by that, because the one incident was very heavily discussed throughout this thread.

I'll be completely honest, half of my earlier reading in this topic made me feel like I was reading a journal titled "My Life as a Preschooler". And not because I think everyone was being childish, though some people certainly were. I'll explain...

I kept getting a vivid image in my mind of those sticker boards you see when you first start school in the lower grades. Lots of teachers used these boards along with metallic stars of varying colors to establish a baseline for motivating students to be polite, sharing, and a whole slew of other things. If you did exemplary, you got a gold star; if you were terrible you got a black one or something. Anyway, some students always got upset if they didn't get the gold star, and this reminded me of that a bit.

It kind of felt like some participated in opposition of the staff because they wanted the gold star and didn't get it, and had a tantrum over it. It's far better to earn it than yell or cry for it, though. Everyone's capable of achieving it, the question is who is willing to put in the effort required. Whoever wants to say "I am", I would challenge you shift your energy to proving it. You might be surprised where it gets you.


bjg2k1us wrote:What about the input from people not currently playing? Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but everything I've said is coming from someone who hasn't played in months. If that makes all my opinions on the direction of the game invalid, so be it. Staff can always ban my account if they feel that my opinions are unwarranted and unwanted; and if you choose to ignore anything or everything I'm saying because of that, that's entirely your decision. I would only say that having people who are still invested and interested in your game, even if they have reservations about playing it at the moment, is not actually a bad thing - provided they can still share their opinions without becoming toxic.


I also never suggested any form of invalidation resulting from you not being a player. I said that some peoples' behavior on the forums surprised me, and that I wouldn't have imagined them to be the same people I interact with on a regular basis ICly. Some likely are, in which case they are extremely good at separating IC from OOC. The people who've left but still support the game are good catalysts for learning from mistakes. I'd never disregard your opinion just because you aren't playing at the moment. If I was the disregarding type I wouldn't have read 11 pages before posting.


The point of my post was that the picture greeting newcomers is near mostly (not completely) painted by bitter painters who are holding onto things that should just be let go for the betterment and continuity of the game. I'm not saying everyone is like that, because this thread is one where the constructive comes in and shines, which is exactly why I came here to speak.

I didn't want to get spirited away in the negativity when I could show folks what all this looks like to someone with objective eyes that hasn't been through what you all have been through. If someone wants to say my eyes are the problem and not the painting, I would disagree.
And I'm not saying it still looks the same to me. The tone of the discussion changed before the end. If I'd thrown myself in instead of reading and quadruple checking what I was saying, my points would've been at more accurate times, but not as well thought out.


**** I'd also like to give props to the fact that this thread exists, honestly. I'm used to playing RPIs where if you ask "How does this work? Why did this happen?" you're told it doesn't matter, and to just play your character. And when people complain they're simply banned. This game has far more 'transparency' than any others I've played, and the staff are doing an amazing job of weathering the fact that someone is always going to be unhappy with everything they say, do, feel, or think. I'm excited for the future of the game and hope this all blows over quickly and that the bitterness doesn't make it to Laketown.
That is not dead, which can eternal lie.
And with strange aeons even death may die.
- H.P Lovecraft

Skype @ Seirza
seirza
Verified Member
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:07 am

Re: Trust

Postby EltanimRas » Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:33 am

Nimrod wrote:Surprise is relative, IMHO. An equally horrible analogy to match your own would be your work life. You're hired to make 50k a year, you agreed to that amount in exchange for 1/3 of your life each year. You work in your position for a year, and make a good friend, Bob, who does your same job. You and Bob are really good buddies. After a year you discover that Bob makes 75k in a less-than-honest manner. The terms with your employer were agreed upon by you and your employer prior to you accepting and you were extremely happy in your position until you found out Bob made 75k. Does this give you the right to demand 75k of your employer? The quid pro quo was acceptable before, but now it is not because your perspective has been changed.

This gives me the right to sue the &*%# out of my employer for sex discrimination, probably. At the very least, it removes said employer's right (figuratively speaking, of course) to act the wounded party when I depart for greener pastures.

cf.:
'Pay Secrecy' Policies At Work: Often Illegal, And Misunderstood
When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'
User avatar
EltanimRas
Master Ent
 
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:52 am

Re: Trust

Postby Rivean » Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:51 am

Nimrod wrote:
Rivean wrote:It's a code problem, and it needs a code solution. We're all better off if we direct energies toward coming up with a coded system that requires (or at the least facilitates) RP. Everything else is a bandaid that doesn't work very well and has negative side affects - one of which is often going to be a furious playerbase.


Hi Riv. :) I'm going to snip out this one bit and comment, because I can. :P

I agree. Completely. I attempted to introduce the mercy command some time ago, got Elder Staff approval to float the idea to the players and no major objections from Elder Staff.

I floated the idea to the players and a revolt erupted around it. No! They screamed loudly. Within ten minutes of the post being made one of our Elder Staffers quickly changed the position they had just an hour before and became a bitter foe to the idea. I let the complaints rage for some time and in the end, gave up on the idea and tossed it in the garbage.


I remember the mercy command shitstorm, and I was against it as well, though not nearly so vehemently as others (or maybe I just feel calmer about it now in retrospect :P ).

I think you approached the problem in the wrong way:

The mercy command, as well as all the other suggestions you've listed in your reply to my post are aimed at POST COMBAT RP. While I think there's some room for speculation there, any solution to our problem must deal with PRE COMBAT RP.

That's where the problems lie, that's where our ROE has historically focused on.

Honestly, if it weren't for the problems of ambush and archery, some sort of engage command that would set off a timer in which RP could take place before coded combat begins, coupled with a dramatic slowing down of the pace of coded combat so people are not buttonmashing FLEE to save their lives would alleviate 70 - 80 percent of our combat woes.

Of course, archery and ambush are a huge part of the game, so we can't do that, but I still believe that the solution lies in that direction, and that's where we'll eventually end up if we keep thinking about it.

Slowing down combat though, is a definite win win. The only balancing act one has to perform is one where combat is slow enough that one can RP through it, but not so slow that one doesn't feel the edge-of-your-seat thing.

And even in that case, I'd happily sacrifice some visceral excitement to improve the quality of combat RP.
User avatar
Rivean
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:53 am

Re: Trust

Postby Rivean » Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:55 am

^ Addendum to this, re: post vs pre combat:

Our problems tend not to be 'I didn't get a chance to RP my death in that fight.'

Our problems tend to be 'Rivean is a twink and he's going to spam run the hell away, so I'm going to spam murder him before he does so.'
User avatar
Rivean
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:53 am

Re: Trust

Postby EltanimRas » Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:52 am

A large and angry troll wrote:Sorry... I don't agree with publicly advertising all roles. Some are plot related. Some are for very specific spots in the hierarchy. If you aren't invited. Then you don't fit the 'vision' for that spot. Deal with it.

Links:
Secret role call: Allanak
Secret Role Call!

Sample quotation (credit Talia):
"There is no need to tell us who your character will be or what s/he will be doing, since you don't know what the role is! Just tell us how hard you can throw yourself in over the next month or so, and what your usual playtimes are. If you want, you can also tell us how good you are at involving other players and/or doing leader-y stuff or plot stuff."
User avatar
EltanimRas
Master Ent
 
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:52 am

Re: Trust

Postby Bones » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:13 am

I'm not angry at all. Good try though. At the moment you're simply trying to pick a fight, and I'll happily oblige you if you -really- want to get into one.


A number of the players on this forum posting about 'it's not fair sekrit sekrit' might not have had access to that 'secret invite role' from staff, or to 'that concept', or 'this resource', but they had a number of opportunities given to them by staff.

We can go into airing out dirty laundry if you want. Until then, try not to act cool by being an dick to me. If you're an dick to me, I'll have to be a dick to you. And I'm -much- better at it.
Nimrod banned me for 7 days.
Bones
Elf Recruit
 
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:30 pm

Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:22 am

EltanimRas wrote:
Nimrod wrote:Surprise is relative, IMHO. An equally horrible analogy to match your own would be your work life. You're hired to make 50k a year, you agreed to that amount in exchange for 1/3 of your life each year. You work in your position for a year, and make a good friend, Bob, who does your same job. You and Bob are really good buddies. After a year you discover that Bob makes 75k in a less-than-honest manner. The terms with your employer were agreed upon by you and your employer prior to you accepting and you were extremely happy in your position until you found out Bob made 75k. Does this give you the right to demand 75k of your employer? The quid pro quo was acceptable before, but now it is not because your perspective has been changed.

This gives me the right to sue the &*%# out of my employer for sex discrimination, probably. At the very least, it removes said employer's right (figuratively speaking, of course) to act the wounded party when I depart for greener pastures.

cf.:
'Pay Secrecy' Policies At Work: Often Illegal, And Misunderstood
When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'


I can't tell, but I hope you're joking here, Eltanimras. The horrible analogy that I was countering another horrible analogy with was not intended to have anything to do with gender discrimination. I'm not sure how that issue could be read in to anything I've posted so far.

The issue of racial discrimination, gender discrimination, equal rights, LGBT rights, gay marriage, and others are very close to my heart. I would literally be aghast with horror if I gave any indication to anyone that I am not a supporter of equalness. I've gone to great lengths to make this game and the community an accepting and equal one.

If I've offended in some way, please, point me to the specific text and I will consider them and possibly offer further insight to my thoughts.
The greatest enemy to propaganda or even counter-propaganda is open, unadulterated channels of free opinion.
User avatar
Nimrod
Game Lead
 
Posts: 5425
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:51 pm

Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:33 am

seirza wrote: I'd also like to give props to the fact that this thread exists,


Thanks, Seirza. I've literally spent the last week obsessing over this thread and have gotten very little else done. As I've said in previous posts, I think keeping this thread open is important.

I'm hoping that it will soon die down, as I do spend a considerable amount of time on it. Time that I'd rather spend on other things. But right now, at this moment in our game, I fully believe that my time is best spent right here. I won't purposely let the thread die because of lack of reply on my part. If players continue to ask for feedback, I will continue to give it.

Fortunately we have some really awesome folks on staff that are continuing to work on the game in the background. I trust them all and am extremely happy with their work.
The greatest enemy to propaganda or even counter-propaganda is open, unadulterated channels of free opinion.
User avatar
Nimrod
Game Lead
 
Posts: 5425
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:51 pm

Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:45 am

Rivean wrote:
Nimrod wrote:
Rivean wrote:It's a code problem, and it needs a code solution. We're all better off if we direct energies toward coming up with a coded system that requires (or at the least facilitates) RP. Everything else is a bandaid that doesn't work very well and has negative side affects - one of which is often going to be a furious playerbase.


Hi Riv. :) I'm going to snip out this one bit and comment, because I can. :P

I agree. Completely. I attempted to introduce the mercy command some time ago, got Elder Staff approval to float the idea to the players and no major objections from Elder Staff.

I floated the idea to the players and a revolt erupted around it. No! They screamed loudly. Within ten minutes of the post being made one of our Elder Staffers quickly changed the position they had just an hour before and became a bitter foe to the idea. I let the complaints rage for some time and in the end, gave up on the idea and tossed it in the garbage.


I remember the mercy command shitstorm, and I was against it as well, though not nearly so vehemently as others (or maybe I just feel calmer about it now in retrospect :P ).

I think you approached the problem in the wrong way:

The mercy command, as well as all the other suggestions you've listed in your reply to my post are aimed at POST COMBAT RP. While I think there's some room for speculation there, any solution to our problem must deal with PRE COMBAT RP.

That's where the problems lie, that's where our ROE has historically focused on.

Honestly, if it weren't for the problems of ambush and archery, some sort of engage command that would set off a timer in which RP could take place before coded combat begins, coupled with a dramatic slowing down of the pace of coded combat so people are not buttonmashing FLEE to save their lives would alleviate 70 - 80 percent of our combat woes.

Of course, archery and ambush are a huge part of the game, so we can't do that, but I still believe that the solution lies in that direction, and that's where we'll eventually end up if we keep thinking about it.

Slowing down combat though, is a definite win win. The only balancing act one has to perform is one where combat is slow enough that one can RP through it, but not so slow that one doesn't feel the edge-of-your-seat thing.

And even in that case, I'd happily sacrifice some visceral excitement to improve the quality of combat RP.


A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... (8 years I think), there was a raging debate on SoI's forums about ROE. I floated the idea of a timer that would force people to wait for x seconds before they could engage in combat. I was pretty green on the forums, and the idea was immediately shot down by most everyone at the time. Rather than fighting, I just slunk back under my rock and let the whole affair play out.

The pre-combat issue that you point out has much merit, Rivean, and perhaps we'll visit it in the future. Right now though, we are taking a different course to try that.

The PvP issue has raged long and has caused much angst. Maybe the problem is unsolvable, but we'll do our best to make it better, but it is not going to be our main focus. It has been the main focus of some administrations in the past and has chewed up a lot of time. Many times this focus has taken away focus from other areas of the game, and those areas suffered. We're doing our best to avoid that.
The greatest enemy to propaganda or even counter-propaganda is open, unadulterated channels of free opinion.
User avatar
Nimrod
Game Lead
 
Posts: 5425
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:51 pm

Re: Trust

Postby Brian » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:54 am

At some point, I don't remember when, and I don't remember who or why, but a major overhaul of the way that combat functioned was floated. It was going to be called the approach command or something. To initiate combat you would approach your target and then it would shift into a phase based sort of thing where there would be a phase for ranged combat, a phase for advancing, and a phase for melee. I don't know what happened to it but I thought it was a great idea at the time.
User avatar
Brian
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:56 pm

Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:54 am

EltanimRas wrote:
A large and angry troll wrote:Sorry... I don't agree with publicly advertising all roles. Some are plot related. Some are for very specific spots in the hierarchy. If you aren't invited. Then you don't fit the 'vision' for that spot. Deal with it.

Links:
Secret role call: Allanak
Secret Role Call!

Sample quotation (credit Talia):
"There is no need to tell us who your character will be or what s/he will be doing, since you don't know what the role is! Just tell us how hard you can throw yourself in over the next month or so, and what your usual playtimes are. If you want, you can also tell us how good you are at involving other players and/or doing leader-y stuff or plot stuff."


Interesting links, and we may do that type of advertising in the future. We did say that some sponsored roles may or may not be advertised.

As for the quote, I have to assume it's from Bones as he was the one to reply right after this post from you, let's all try to take the high road and use names instead of monikers, however humorous they may be. Good grief, it pains me to have to defend Bones. Ugh. *wink*
The greatest enemy to propaganda or even counter-propaganda is open, unadulterated channels of free opinion.
User avatar
Nimrod
Game Lead
 
Posts: 5425
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:51 pm

Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:56 am

Bones wrote:I'm not angry at all. Good try though. At the moment you're simply trying to pick a fight, and I'll happily oblige you if you -really- want to get into one.


A number of the players on this forum posting about 'it's not fair sekrit sekrit' might not have had access to that 'secret invite role' from staff, or to 'that concept', or 'this resource', but they had a number of opportunities given to them by staff.

We can go into airing out dirty laundry if you want. Until then, try not to act cool by being an dick to me. If you're an dick to me, I'll have to be a dick to you. And I'm -much- better at it.


Stop being such a large and angry troll, Bones. Of course I'm being light-hearted here, but seriously, let's keep it civil.
The greatest enemy to propaganda or even counter-propaganda is open, unadulterated channels of free opinion.
User avatar
Nimrod
Game Lead
 
Posts: 5425
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:51 pm

Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:05 pm

Rivean wrote:Our problems tend to be 'Rivean is a twink and he's going to spam run the hell away, so I'm going to spam murder him before he does so.'


Seems legit. :roll:

Krelm always had an interesting philosophy, though it didn't always spill over to the rest of his posse. He always said: "I'll roleplay with anyone, but if they twink right to code melee or just leave without roleplay all bets are off."

The other party usually got the short end of the stick when they did skip roleplay and go straight to melee. Krelm and Co. were always extremely good at using the combat code and were never afraid to die. That makes for a very powerful adversary when you have no roleplay.

I'm not saying that's the answer, but it was interesting. It also highlighted the problem of: "We're all equal, but some are more equal than others."

:D
The greatest enemy to propaganda or even counter-propaganda is open, unadulterated channels of free opinion.
User avatar
Nimrod
Game Lead
 
Posts: 5425
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:51 pm

Re: Trust

Postby Rivean » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:23 pm

Bones wrote:I'm not angry at all. Good try though. At the moment you're simply trying to pick a fight, and I'll happily oblige you if you -really- want to get into one.


Actually, it was a joke referencing your other thread that Nim locked, but I apologize on both our behalfs if you were offended (I might have been egging her on :P ). On the other hand:

"I don't know, I'm kind of curious, I don't think Bones has got any of my dirty laundry," says someone I might know.

Nimrod wrote:Maybe the problem is unsolvable, but we'll do our best to make it better, but it is not going to be our main focus.


Fair enough. I really do think that this is one of the Big Things that SOI needs to overcome, and as you say, it's been tried in the past, but we've never managed to do it. Still needs to be done though.

But if it's not your primary focus (and I don't really think it ought to be), that's your call.

Nimrod wrote:I can't tell, but I hope you're joking here, Eltanimras. The horrible analogy that I was countering another horrible analogy with was not intended to have anything to do with gender discrimination. I'm not sure how that issue could be read in to anything I've posted so far.


The original source is not available to post, but she instructs me to let you know that she was commenting on the real life analogy and not making accusations of IG or staffside sexism :P
User avatar
Rivean
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:53 am

Re: Trust

Postby Holmes » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:39 pm

Bones wrote:I'm not angry at all. Good try though. At the moment you're simply trying to pick a fight, and I'll happily oblige you if you -really- want to get into one.


A number of the players on this forum posting about 'it's not fair sekrit sekrit' might not have had access to that 'secret invite role' from staff, or to 'that concept', or 'this resource', but they had a number of opportunities given to them by staff.

We can go into airing out dirty laundry if you want. Until then, try not to act cool by being an dick to me. If you're an dick to me, I'll have to be a dick to you. And I'm -much- better at it.


Hi Bones.

What dirty laundry would this be? Because, speaking of people with LOTS of dirty laundry...

Would this be dirty laundry like the psionic NPC you played for the Grey Ring walked through Amdir, harassing people just because you didn't like them?

Would this be stuff like the psychic Arnorian Dunadan you played, where you cheated on the BP to see where players were located in order to seem more badass? The one where you harassed certain PCs because they wouldn't fall in love with your character?

Would this be stuff like creating a super special forces unit, for no real IC reason, giving them badass armor that probably shouldn't even have been loaded on the grid (seriously it made my novice sneak/hide basically adroit, not that I was complaining at the time)?

Maybe the time you played another Craftsmen, and convinced Staff to let you role in with an entire military detachment? After which you spent a walk to Caolafon threatening a Gondorian Lieutenant in what was a hilarious catfight?

Maybe the SEVERAL times you harassed me with wiztells, or that time where you threw a fit in the guest lounge because people used the slap emote on you? Do you remember how I bowed? I hope you mentioned that on my player note.

How about that time where your frequent inactivity and general uselessness basically killed an entire sphere, which only persisted through the efforts of several exceptional players (no, I don't consider myself one of them)?

I could probably go on for quite a bit longer if I REALLY felt like it, and wanted to dig through my memories, but really this is just surface evidence of you being an incompetent, corrupt, and just a generally unpleasant person.

Please don't threaten people, I was quite happy to tell you to shut up with your idiotic threats when you /were/ an admin, now that you're just a player, I'm doubly willing to do so!
User avatar
Holmes
Elf Recruit
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:22 pm

Re: Trust

Postby tehkory » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:42 pm

Bones, open a new thread where we can ask you to air out our dirty laundry! I wanna see mine. And ER's.
tehkory
Master Ent
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:21 pm

Re: Trust

Postby Rishte » Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:33 pm

Stay on topic. Cease these player to player attacks.
User avatar
Rishte
The Shadow
 
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:00 pm
Location: In your shadow.

Re: Trust

Postby EltanimRas » Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:38 pm

tehkory wrote:Bones, open a new thread where we can ask you to air out our dirty laundry! I wanna see mine. And ER's.

I was just saying we should have a SoI version of Arm's "Shame" thread for miscellaneous confessions of twinkery and newbishness.

Otherwise, yes, what Riv said.

If I have serious insults, I'll pm them. Anything offered in public is meant light-heartedly, and I apologize for my part in triggering the swiftly escalating derail that ensued.
User avatar
EltanimRas
Master Ent
 
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:52 am

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

cron

Connect

FacebookTwitter

Login

Who is online

Very smart users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Login