It is currently Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:51 am
Change font size

General Discussion

Crafting/Skills/Races

Discuss game issues here.

Moderator: Elder Staff

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Octavius » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:47 pm

Matt wrote:Metalcraft has way to much useful stuff in one skill pick.


Icarus' decision was that this levels-out due to the limitation on metal availability. You can do a little over a wide range.
User avatar
Octavius
Journeyman Architect
 
Posts: 1094
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:33 pm
Location: East Coast, USA

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Hawkwind » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:56 pm

Octavius wrote:
Matt wrote:Metalcraft has way to much useful stuff in one skill pick.


Icarus' decision was that this levels-out due to the limitation on metal availability. You can do a little over a wide range.


Previous examples have shown that there is either not enough to make the material used viable or that we will rampantly abuse the hell out of any code and generate vast amounts of said material. I would suggest that availability is a poor way to level out, balance or otherwise impact the craftset.
JESUS CHRIST, THE HELIUM!
PS4 Handle - Roadhawkes
Tags Taken: Eru I, Mavinero I.
User avatar
Hawkwind
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 422
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:46 am
Location: Volga Matushka

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Matt » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:15 pm

Sorry but that's the wrong call. What you'll get is a bunch of people with the skill but one Guy in the clan getting all the materials. This happened in parallel even with extreme amounts of supplies. The best Guy will get all the metal because they're least likely to fail and you want him to skill up even more. Armor and weapons are the highest demanded goods in the game and giving PC's the ability to increase in skill at both at the same time is a bad idea. Not to mention it limits diversity in PC's in general. I'd make it armorcraft, weaponcraft, and metalcraft. Metalcraft covering everything else.
Matt
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 533
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:47 pm

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Brian » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:26 pm

Matt is wise in the ways of these things. Anything that he says about game balance and the potential to abuse it would be worth taking seriously.
User avatar
Brian
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:56 pm

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Throttle » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:07 am

Either there needs to be no metal armor at all or metal needs to be sufficiently accessible that the associated craftsets are viable and their products available to anyone who makes a decent effort to get them. Generally I think this iron scarcity plan is a pipe dream that will at best not happen and at worst break the game balance in various ways. Anything that's important and obtainable will be farmed, which isn't even a bad thing because it'll provide players with a constant incentive and activity that keeps people logging in and going out.

I still can't see a way to make iron so rare that most people can't get enough of it to meet their needs unless you gate the resource behind something contrived like 'only x iron can spawn per month.' If you do this, you just make it a twink's arms race and send the message that players need to powergame to the max or miss out on crucial resources, which is just plain bad. If you don't do it, people will get more iron than you planned for and you'll end up with an itemization that doesn't match the intended design of the game.

Extreme scarcity has never worked unless it's made completely unavailable outside of special circumstances, like metal is on Armageddon where the result is that it basically doesn't interfere with gameplay and thus doesn't matter. If you make it so that metal armor can be made and the metal can be obtained but only by the absurdly rich or the most diligent twinks, you just create a power hierarchy with the best powergamers on top and the responsible roleplayers at the bottom.

If there really must be a hardlined metal scarcity, start the game with no metal armor objects (save maybe helmets), and thus no metal-armorcrafting craftset. Make armorcrafting produce just shields, helmets and leather armors. Split metalcrafting into weaponcrafting and blacksmithing. If eventually you want to add metal armor down the line, it'll be much safer to be able to just add that craftset to the armorcrafting skill than it would be to suddenly give the ability to make the game's best armors to everyone who holds any one of three completely unrelated professions. No one skill should govern the manufacture of weapons, armor, and the majority of utility items and tools. It should be three separate skills.
You notice a gigantic orb spider with raw-umber patterning's attention shift toward you!
You notice a giant orb spider with night patterning's attention shift toward you!
You notice a rugged orb spider with sepia patterning's attention shift toward you!
User avatar
Throttle
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 358
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:59 am

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Emilio » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:02 am

With the town being in such isolation, we may not have all the crafters needed to build certain items, and, if you add metal scarcity, the crafters may not have the knowledge of creating metal armor. On the other hand, in a setting such as this, our crafters may learn to build arms and armor using alternate materials, i.e., copper, bronze, bones, flint, stones, etc.

All you need to do is looking at the history of arms and armor and see that a chain mail didn't just appear out of thin air.
User avatar
Emilio
Honored Dwarf
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:06 pm
Location: Galicia, Spain

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Icarus » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:37 pm

*Ponder*

I'm mulling doing the split between Metalcraft, Armorcraft, and Weaponcraft.

For the moment let me be a bit wishy washy and ask about staff. I'll probably split them up.
[Petition: Player] I am ready to begin my interdimensional adventure.

A mutilated little orc murmurs, nodding as he mutters,
"I fought good today. Yuh. Fought good, 'specially for bein' the kitchen-snaga. Yuh, I did."
User avatar
Icarus
Staffer Emeritus
 
Posts: 2837
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:45 pm

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Icarus » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:54 pm

My concern is that there won't be enough crafts to make the split worth it.

Let us work out exactly what crafts will be in the sets, and we will make a choice then.
[Petition: Player] I am ready to begin my interdimensional adventure.

A mutilated little orc murmurs, nodding as he mutters,
"I fought good today. Yuh. Fought good, 'specially for bein' the kitchen-snaga. Yuh, I did."
User avatar
Icarus
Staffer Emeritus
 
Posts: 2837
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:45 pm

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Brian » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:38 pm

Icarus wrote:My concern is that there won't be enough crafts to make the split worth it.

Let us work out exactly what crafts will be in the sets, and we will make a choice then.


If the scarcity is going to be in place as its intended to be, metalcrafting/armor smithing/weapon smithing should be a very specialized skill and probably a rare one, as much to save new players from feeling like they've wasted a skill pick as anything. Kind of like Matt said, if you're on a very limited intake of iron, you're probably going to want to have the best smith you have work that iron for whatever your needs are. It would probably be a good idea to have some kind of warning in character generation that if you pick any of these metal working skills you probably aren't going to have much of a chance to use them, so may want to consider choosing something else.

Throttle wrote:Extreme scarcity has never worked unless it's made completely unavailable outside of special circumstances, like metal is on Armageddon where the result is that it basically doesn't interfere with gameplay and thus doesn't matter. If you make it so that metal armor can be made and the metal can be obtained but only by the absurdly rich or the most diligent twinks, you just create a power hierarchy with the best powergamers on top and the responsible roleplayers at the bottom.


I think this is an incredibly important point and one that there has to be a plan to address. Throttle is right in that the powergamers WILL find a way to get it if there is a conceivable way to access it, so for this implementation to work there's got to be a mechanism that makes the injection of metal happen in the way that the rest of the system is designed to handle, so that it doesn't spiral in an unwanted way.
User avatar
Brian
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:56 pm

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Letters » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:40 pm

Even if there are only a few crafts, they'll still be in immensely high demand.
A skeletal, pig-tailed-haired male teen says,
"Prepare to meet your doom, loping man. It is I, loitering person, your nemesis."
Letters
Elf Recruit
 
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Icarus » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:22 pm

For creating scarcity: independent shop owners won't exist, certainly in Alpha. Obtaining iron of a decent quality for arms/armor will be down to using a payday stipend to purchase your materials. You can't twink a payday to get your hundred ingots, nor can you hoards everyone's funding, since you get to go to the shop and get it yourself. You can make a thousand knife blades from shit iron gotten from the swamps, but their durability will be at about a quarter of what you had on parallel.
[Petition: Player] I am ready to begin my interdimensional adventure.

A mutilated little orc murmurs, nodding as he mutters,
"I fought good today. Yuh. Fought good, 'specially for bein' the kitchen-snaga. Yuh, I did."
User avatar
Icarus
Staffer Emeritus
 
Posts: 2837
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:45 pm

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Octavius » Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:30 am

A problem with separating Weaponcraft and Armorcraft is that those are end-product-oriented skills where the rest are resource-oriented skills. This mixed logic has always caused confusion for new players -- "what do you mean my leathercrafter can't make leather armor? I got gipped on my picks and need a new PC!" We decided between the models and went with resource-based, but it does cause the problem Matt notes.

If we add Weaponcraft and Armorcraft as new skills, we can either have them function in place of the resource skills (you can make leather and metal armor with armorcraft without leathercraft or metalcraft) or we can make them work in conjunction with multiple skill checks per craft.

I am strongly in favor of the latter - weapons and armor are an important enough specialty to require an additional skill, but still require the basic levels for work, too. It also makes good weapons and armor that much more of a commodity.

Any metalcrafter can pound out a pot or a shovel, but someone working for weapons or armor needs a whole additional set of expertise in addition.

Weaponcrafter: woodcraft, metalcraft, weaponcraft, artistry
Light Armorer: textilecraft, leathercraft, armorcraft, artistry
Heavy Armorer: leathercraft, metalcraft, armorcraft, artistry.
User avatar
Octavius
Journeyman Architect
 
Posts: 1094
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:33 pm
Location: East Coast, USA

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Letters » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:14 am

Perhaps disable armourcraft as a skill pick until leathercraft is chosen, and disable weaponcraft until woodcraft is chosen?
A skeletal, pig-tailed-haired male teen says,
"Prepare to meet your doom, loping man. It is I, loitering person, your nemesis."
Letters
Elf Recruit
 
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Brian » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:17 am

Or make the skill metal armourcraft so that it's obvious what will be in that skill set?
User avatar
Brian
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:56 pm

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Emilio » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:30 am

In my opinion, we need more generic crafters instead of having specialists whose only purpose is to make arms and armor.

  • Blacksmith - a person who forges objects of iron. (this includes the metal parts of arms and armour)
  • Furrier - a person whose occupation is selling, making, dressing, or repairing fur garments. (Fur armour)
  • Carpenter - a person who works in wood, joiner, or cabinet-maker. (Shields, spear shafts and handles for axes, knives, spears, etc.)
  • Clothier - a person who makes, sells, or deals in clothes or cloth. (I would include leather here since the skills are the same as a leatherworker; cutting and sewing)
  • Tanner - a person whose occupation it is to tan hides.
  • Armourer - a person who makes or mends arms and armour. (Assembles the different components from other crafters to make arms and armour like studded leather, scale or ring mail)
User avatar
Emilio
Honored Dwarf
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:06 pm
Location: Galicia, Spain

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Matt » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:50 am

I really like what Octavius posted about needing a range of skills to really be an 'armorer' or 'weaponsmith'. Besides artistry. They're skill sets that should need a wide range of talents to produce. Is it really necessary to do it like that? Not really. But it's not a bad idea for making legit armor/weapons a real commodity.
Matt
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 533
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:47 pm

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Octavius » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:12 am

The proposal above is approved by Elder Staff - we will create the Armorcraft and Weaponcraft skills.

This is what we're going to try for, code-allowing:
  • If you pick Woodcraft OR Metalcraft (Or Stonecraft and are an Orc) it will open Weaponcraft as a choice.
  • If you pick Leathercraft OR Textilecraft OR Metalcraft, it will open Armorcraft as a choice.
  • Armor and Weapon crafts will branch in their own craftset (you have to work on ordinary-leather-armor to branch ordinary-leather-armor) but using the material-based skill level (you need sufficient Leathercraft skill to branch in the Ordinary-Leather-Armor craftset).
  • Successful making of the armor or weapon item will require successful skill check against the material-based skill AND the armorcraft/weaponcraft skill.
  • Improvised weapons and armor (particularly for orcs) will test only against the Armorcraft and Weaponcraft skills to produce trash-quality items, but will allow these skills to be opened at the lowest level. (A broken femur shaved to a point that works as a small-blade weapon, a wolf-skull pauldron, a heavy branch cut to be a bludgeon, etc.)

As a side note, and since we were talking about skill-picks nesting, the following is also going on the To Do list:
  • If you pick First-Aid, it will open Medicine as a choice.
  • If you pick Medicine OR Music OR Haggle, it will open Education as a choice.

There was discussion about making initial-pick of Education, Armorcraft, or Weaponcraft require RPP to limit their availability in game, but this was deferred since nobody will have RPP to start Alpha.
User avatar
Octavius
Journeyman Architect
 
Posts: 1094
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:33 pm
Location: East Coast, USA

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Brian » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:25 am

Icarus wrote:For creating scarcity: independent shop owners won't exist, certainly in Alpha. Obtaining iron of a decent quality for arms/armor will be down to using a payday stipend to purchase your materials. You can't twink a payday to get your hundred ingots, nor can you hoards everyone's funding, since you get to go to the shop and get it yourself. You can make a thousand knife blades from shit iron gotten from the swamps, but their durability will be at about a quarter of what you had on parallel.


A question about this Icarus; this seems to be a good way to control the amount of high quality iron that comes into the game. If it can only be obtained on this kind of timer that doesn't seem like something that you can powergame or twink your way to more of.

My question is if wear is going to be heavy enough that items will actually ever leave circulation. The tendency in most MUDs is to have an item creep, whether it is faster or slower; will wear be a big enough factor that, even with diligent repairs, an item will ever be completely destroyed and leave circulation? Will items have a repair lifespan, such that a well maintained piece will last X times longer than one that isn't maintained but will still eventually go? Will there be certain impacts that will permanently reduce the effectiveness of a piece or it's repair level ie: a mortal level wound impacting the covered area? And, if that piece is fully destroyed, will there be capability to melt it down back into base ingredients, and if so, how much relative to the amount required to remake the piece? If a chain hauberk takes 10 iron ingots, goes through its lifespan, and is melted down to 10 iron ingots at the end it won't have actually left circulation, for instance.
User avatar
Brian
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:56 pm

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Octavius » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:57 am

Current thought is:
Items that remain in circulation and are prevented from degrading will cost resources to keep.

If you have a chain hauberk that takes 10 ignots to make, it is a Superior craft, and has a 24 hour timer. If you made it out of bog-iron, it would have about 1/4 the resiliency of metal armor on ARPI or PRPI. If you made it out of imported iron, it would likely be two- or three-times that.

Armor takes damage during combat according to the wounds done to the person on that area. So, a grievous wound to the chest will leave a massive rent in the chest armor.

We will allow repair kits that can handle ONLY minor fixes. Repair kits will require some form of metal (perhaps repair links, rather than ignots) go into them, so have a cost to use.

When an item takes enough damage it gets Worn and then Ruined per the wear and tear code, and degrades in its functionality.

To fix large damages, or to bring a Worn or Ruined piece back into service requires a craft. That craft will take the same skill, the same timer, but half the resources of the original craft. So, "repair damaged-chainmail" craft would be a Superior craft with a 24-hour timer that consumes 5 ignots.

For weapons, they don't take named damages, only general wear. So, there won't be damages that are beyond a repair kit unless it is allowed to wear-out. A weapon could be continually upkept with repair kits or it could be used until worn, then returned to the forge for a craft.

As far as recycling - we haven't decided on the firebreathers, I am still considering them. If we have a recycling capability for metal (which would be realistic and accurate), I would consider controlling it with one of two game mechanics. One, that the process is inefficient and/or subject to taxes, so you only get half the metal back. That means you can spend 50% new metal to return an item to service, or recycle it and get 50% metal from it for your next need. The other option is to recover a greater amount back but that all iron degrades to "slag iron" which is like bog-iron and is better used for non-weapon/armor uses.

Player Thoughts?
User avatar
Octavius
Journeyman Architect
 
Posts: 1094
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:33 pm
Location: East Coast, USA

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Matt » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:36 am

A few.

I definitely like the fact that armor will degrade more then they would in ARPI. Once you got a set of metal-banded armor in that game you were pretty much set forever. Higher defense=less damage to the actual armor because of smaller wounds. So, that might be something to look at. The amount of upkeep required for higher level equipment should be higher because it'll take less damage in combat.

Also I think it makes more sense in this setting to make it so you have to have the related skill to repair any damaged gear. But on the other hand... do we want to make it so that when the clan armorer logs in he's just spamming repair X for the first hour of play? Maybe make it a quick and painless process? I figure orcs would just use their broken armor as a nest and throw together some more trash.
Matt
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 533
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:47 pm

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Throttle » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:28 pm

I'm just concerned about the fact that the best equipment in the game can seemingly only be obtained by way of wealth (imported). It completely flies in the face of the notion that money shouldn't be allowed to rule every aspect of the game. If you make it so that money is how you get top equipment, that's going to be the overwhelmingly dominant focus of the entire playerbase.
You notice a gigantic orb spider with raw-umber patterning's attention shift toward you!
You notice a giant orb spider with night patterning's attention shift toward you!
You notice a rugged orb spider with sepia patterning's attention shift toward you!
User avatar
Throttle
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 358
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:59 am

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Octavius » Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:09 pm

Matt wrote:But on the other hand... do we want to make it so that when the clan armorer logs in he's just spamming repair X for the first hour of play? Maybe make it a quick and painless process? I figure orcs would just use their broken armor as a nest and throw together some more trash.


Actually, the thought is to go the other direction. With progression crafts, a crafter won't run one craft and get a timer so they go to the pub. They run one craft to begin the work (and get said timer). They then work it iteratively to move the process further along, spending real-time stitching and working on the piece.

While this is a big change from old SOI, it is something you already saw in action on ARPI. We built this capability there so that you can have a master (who starts the piece) but then hands scut-work off to a fleet of apprentices (who technically could work together to finish the work without it breaking). That's why clothing items on ARPI have code that says the quality of the work and the quality of the stitching separately - if someone used apprentices, the stitching would show their skill level instead, thus revealing the practices of that craft shop by looking at their items.

If you are playing "THE clan armorer" then you should expect to spend the majority of the time armoring. Roleplay should occur in the workrooms and shops. If you don't want to spend the time on it, you can hire or conscript PCs to work for you on it, or work selectively and produce less. The former supports growing clan RP, the latter supports scarcity, and both are potentially a good thing.

If Orcs don't want to play crafters that craft, then they can indeed throw together low-quality items easily and dispose of them when done. That's totally valid for them, and IC for their setting if they go that way.

Throttle wrote:I'm just concerned about the fact that the best equipment in the game can seemingly only be obtained by way of wealth (imported). It completely flies in the face of the notion that money shouldn't be allowed to rule every aspect of the game. If you make it so that money is how you get top equipment, that's going to be the overwhelmingly dominant focus of the entire playerbase.


Understood.

On the Economic thread we talked about doing the bulk-exports and bulk-imports by clan-based bartering. Bulk-import of the quality materials will therefore require a trade commodity which is likely coming from a clan's work instead of a person's work. We are also considering having a system (as recommended by players) to allow these "trade agreements" to be distributed to clan-leads to spread them around.

Coin is personal-wealth. I expect that we will not have any transfer mechanism between coin and bulk-trade, so individual wealth cannot result in you getting imported good-stuff directly.

The intended impact is that bulk-goods come in to clans. Individual wealth needs to be brokered into quality goods through a clan. This at least forces some degree of RP and interaction to be part of the process... how much and what kind will always be in the hands of the playerbase, but with responsible clan leads, they can indeed play some fun politics.

The result, is not that "money gets you top equipment" but instead that "clan-based activity gets you top equipment."

I see a greater risk in having the highest-quality good be obtainable by craft/action. When that has been done, the gamist element who works the system hardest gets the greatest reward. By shifting the focus to clans, it moves the gamist motivations to support RP goals.
User avatar
Octavius
Journeyman Architect
 
Posts: 1094
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:33 pm
Location: East Coast, USA

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Matt » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:43 pm

My post was about repairing, not crafting.
Matt
Ent Sapling
 
Posts: 533
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:47 pm

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby benjaboonchar » Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:06 am

In terms of iron, can repair kits made from objects made using low quality iron be used to repair items made using imported high quality iron?

Given that wear and tear is linked to the combat code, would it be possible/worth it to predict the maximum maintable combat equipment given any set amount of imported metal?
benjaboonchar
Verified Member
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:08 pm

Re: Crafting/Skills/Races

Postby Octavius » Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:46 am

Matt wrote:My post was about repairing, not crafting.


The post above yours explained that heavy repairs will be a craft, not a repair kit.


benjaboonchar wrote:In terms of iron, can repair kits made from objects made using low quality iron be used to repair items made using imported high quality iron?


With a repair kit, yes. Which is another reason to limit repair kits.

With the repair craft for large damages, I can add a craft-prog that verifies you are using a matching metal-type or the craft stops.


benjaboonchar wrote:Given that wear and tear is linked to the combat code, would it be possible/worth it to predict the maximum maintable combat equipment given any set amount of imported metal?


I don't understand the question?
User avatar
Octavius
Journeyman Architect
 
Posts: 1094
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:33 pm
Location: East Coast, USA

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

cron

Connect

FacebookTwitter

Login

Who is online

Very smart users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Login