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Orc Play!

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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Mystic » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:22 am

Bring back half-orcs :shock:
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Matt » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:36 am

Nooooooo
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Manarath » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:31 pm

Huh, come to think of it, I have not heard anything on what, if any, kinds of subspecies are going to be available. Is that still up in the air, or has anything in that area been confirmed yet?
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Octavius » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:18 am

Manarath wrote:Huh, come to think of it, I have not heard anything on what, if any, kinds of subspecies are going to be available. Is that still up in the air, or has anything in that area been confirmed yet?


For Alpha, humans are humans and orcs are orcs. (More specifically, orcs are goblins.) Additional orcs are a future proposal. Playable wargs are a future proposal. Dwarves are a future proposal. Silvan elves are a future proposal. Differentiation among humans will be done with roles and skills, not with races and attributes.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Matt » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:46 pm

Here's an idea that I got from the posts about shipping and receiving bulk goods as good guys. Make it so that the shipments can be intercepted by orc players on the roads. Good guys want their goods to arrive safely? You have to go escort them from a certain point on the roads. These should arrive and head out on random times, to make them available to raid during the day and during the night.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Lungorthin » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:27 am

Absolutely. Orcs are known to do that from time to time ;)
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Octavius » Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:39 am

Matt wrote:Here's an idea that I got from the posts about shipping and receiving bulk goods as good guys. Make it so that the shipments can be intercepted by orc players on the roads. Good guys want their goods to arrive safely? You have to go escort them from a certain point on the roads. These should arrive and head out on random times, to make them available to raid during the day and during the night.


Not sure if we'll have it in the beginning of Alpha, but this is a key feature in what Icarus has already announced for play.

I'd be glad to see any ideas you have for how you'd like the experience to work to be most enjoyable.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby benjaboonchar » Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:49 pm

There's a balance to be struck with speed, a fine line between a shipment moving so fast that there is no opportunity and it moving so slow that the issue cannot be dealt with in a single RPT.

My suspicion is that if the playerbase is small enough these conditions might overlap.

My knee jerk response is a compromise. The caravan consists of a mob or moving object, which can be comanded to move forward at a semi regular pace. The caravan would not be able to move from spawn to where the humans can make use of it in one go. Once it reached certain desginated points it would become a stationary object, which takes six RL hours to transform back into a moving object. There would be about four of these points between the spawn and the part where it could be made useful, each of these lightly defended by NPCs- making it difficult for a single orc, but not much danger for a group of them.

Now I would have some sort of perminant way of informing the orcs that there was a caravan in play, and an immediate announcement once a caravan started moving. So the orcs are forced to scout out each of the rest points to determine how far the caravan has gone. Once they have assertained where the caravan is they have two choices, overcoming the NPC guards at a rest point and running off with knowing that the human PCs have been warned and are getting their act together, I imagine a craft to turn the stationary object into another object which transforms into a small amount of the goods the caravan was carrying after thirty minutes.

More dangerously they could attempt to ambush the caravan whilst it is between rest points- and therefore under some form of PC guard, with the benifit being that the other humans aren't warned unless one of the PC guards gets to safety, or a rest point and raises the alarm, as well as the possiblity of being able to run off with the entire caravan rather than a small part of it. Of course the downside is the small window of time avaliable to pull such a hiest and that they'll probably be facing a larger force of PC humans than there are PC orcs.

Reading back this requires a mess of crafts, progs and objects transforming into other objects- so maybe not the best idea but the point is, there has to be fair opportunity for the orcs to hit the caravan as well as fair opportunity for the humans to defend it.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby whitt37 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:58 am

I'm still struggling with making sure that Orcs are just a erplacement for "brigands" and "raiders". They don't just hit the caravans because they're the bad guys. Tolkiens orcs are scary because, yes they are savages, but the strike with a purpose.

All for the raiding, but still waiting to hear about the driving force behind the Orcs the PCs will be playing.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Octavius » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:43 am

Question: What is it that Orc Farmers farm?

Tell me "a day in the life" of an orc who is not currently engaged in combat. What activities are immersive in how you envision this culture (that I then should make possible for you with code)?
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Zargen » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:44 pm

That brings up an interesting question. We know orcs largely to be carnivores with a preference for manflesh. But that's not the only thing they eat. All we have to go by is 'stale bread'. Now if the orcs made this or not is up to debate. So at the very least we can assume orcs either can cook using stolen supplies or there's some lonely shit-kicking snaga out there somewhere with a scraggly field of barley growing. I would think orcs lack the patients and benevolence for that kind of activity. Easier to just steal it from the forces of man. More fun too.

The idea of an orc farmer always amuses the hell out of me. All the old orc related farming just screamed warhammer with boars and mushrooms.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby MrDvAnt » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:49 pm

I'm not sure orcs farm. I could be wrong since I never really scanned the books looking for references to farming. I imagine they'd mostly just kill things and eat them. They have pointy teeth, I figured they'd be carnivores. Maybe they might scavenge fungi or lichens found underground, I'm not sure.

Actually..in the middle of writing this I read...

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/question ... n-settings

Looks like maybe they didn't do their own farming, but rather raided for it and had slaves working fields.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Octavius » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:50 pm

Zargen wrote:The idea of an orc farmer always amuses the hell out of me. All the old orc related farming just screamed warhammer with boars and mushrooms.


Exactly. So, before I recreate mushroom fields and boar-pens, is that what we should have? :)
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby MrDvAnt » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:15 pm

Did you see mine just above yours? I think we posted at the same time. Personally, I don't think they should farm. I think their crafts should focus on things directly related to making war. Weaponcrafts, armorcrafts, siege engine if they're to be included, things like that.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Zargen » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:32 pm

Ehhhhhh I think orcs should have "farming-like" crafts. Instead of "orc farming". Really it begs the question of how self sufficient is the average orc at keeping itself alive? My personal take is that any kind of orc farming crafts would be largely parasitic in nature and would promote proactive conflict. orcs dont get raise orc-piggy. They get abscond with-human's-piggy or filch errant-chicken. I could definitely see cattle rustling and low-threat "raiding to survive" the bread and butter for the bottom of the orc pyramid.

Mushrooms. Honestly I still love the idea of an orc mushroom farmer. If not to feed the snaga masses than for all the other benefits that come with growing fungus. Orc Chirugeons need shrooms for black paste to put on wounds. Orc brewers need shrooms to brew their tastey spirits. The Shaman needs to regularly trip ass for all the other orcs to take him seriously.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Icarus » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:21 pm

Orcs are wonderful because they are so flexible, truth be told.

Stick a band of 5 orcs in the middle of the forest on their own, and you'll essentially have Lord of the Flies going on in a few days. They'll be rangy, poorly fed, wearing rags, and probably eating raw meat without cooking.

Now, stick a band of 500 orcs beneath a defined leadership structure, and you get industry. Pulleys and mining and logistics, planning and furnaces and mass production. Rape and pillage of the earth and great billowing clouds rolling across the landscape.

So, where will our orcs be? They aren't a random band of leaderless hobnobs, but they also aren't under the direct power of a great and powerful organizer. They are under a hundred, with relatively defined goals, and as such probably take a bit from both.

So: Organized and industrious, with a side of frontier-rabble.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Matt » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:17 pm

I really don't think orcs would farm anything. I view them as more as hunters/gatherers. Preferably hunting humans and gathering the things they farmed. I don't think they'd have the patience to care for and grow anything. Also I seriously doubt they'd raise animals for food... orcs don't get full and those animals would be long gone before they could reproduce.

Making farms that are pillagable is a good way to get some interesting conflict going. It keeps human scouts busy making the rounds around the farm lands, forces human PCs out at night for patrols on the borders of what is 'safe', and gives orcs a real reason to harass humans besides 'just because'. It should be high risk and high reward though, with signals going out to Laketown when orcs attack a place. 'Billowing smoke can be seen off to the southeast in the faint light off the moon'.

Make those farms produce things for the military of Laketown. You get 2 bags of grain for farm A, 2 bags of potatoes from farm B, etc etc. As long as they aren't burned to the ground and when they are it takes X amount of time for it to come back. Why it should be high risk for orcs, because you don't want the orc sphere to run through them all all the time. It should be a ballsy move on their part.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Matt » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:24 pm

My main concern about the orc sphere right now is how the old Shadows of Isildur was set up. Which was pretty much screw the bad sphere, good guys rooooooock. You couldn't craft anything as an orc, get anything good without taking it from humans, they races were incredibly lopsided unless you had a troll around, there just wasn't a whole lot going on for orcs. Now orc players don't mind making their own fun it's actually incredibly easy. But there needs to be a balance between the spheres when it comes to code. I'm concerned about all the talk of Elven/Dwarven crafting on the other threads and how those races should be relatively common in the setting(compared to old SOI). I'm not saying orcs should be on par with them when it comes to crafting, but if you get all this awesomeness from those races on the good side there should be a balance to it for the baddies.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Throttle » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:11 am

I haven't seriously played an orc since the Gothakra/Tur-Edendor days, but back then, orcs had pretty much all the same crafting options and made plenty of stuff. I'm assuming it'll be the same here, with almost all crafts being universally available to whomever picks the associated skills. This will be particularly easy with the variable system, allowing each race to make its own kinds of armor and weapons by simply giving them a few unique crafts to make racially distinct components which can combine into the standardized armors with the universal assembly crafts.

The only reason there was any racial imbalance was because SOI went full retard with their races and made a bunch of different denominations of each one. There'll hopefully be none of those Arnorian Dunedain, Plainsdweller Haradrim and Eotheod here. The basic races were completely balanced, and I distinctly remember the orc (not goblin but actual orc) races being the best for their RPP cost throughout much of the game's history, the PCs just rarely lived long enough to become scary.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Octavius » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:42 am

Matt wrote: You couldn't craft anything as an orc, get anything good without taking it from humans, they races were incredibly lopsided unless you had a troll around, there just wasn't a whole lot going on for orcs.


That's the reason for this thread, and for the questions I'm asking. If you want to be able to do things besides fight and raid humans, then I need you all to brainstorm what your fan fiction looks like so I can develop those opportunities.

If the answer is "orcs really DO only exist to raid humans" then that's the only option you'll have. Now, if the human side will be playing combatants, and lumberjacks/huntsmen, and merchants, and politicians, and crafters, and farmers and the orc side exists solely to grief the human side, that will create even more imbalance as it creates discontent for both spheres and band-aids to fix it/create distance/etc.

My opinion is, if you want to be a viable sphere, you need things to do besides PvP against the human PCs, and craft armor/weapons so that you can PvP against the human PCs. I intend to develop ideas for you to do those things, but also to do additional orc-sphere things. I encourage you to brainstorm input here to help shape those options for your future use.

"Raiding human farms" is difficult for Alpha because of our limited map and if that's really the biggest desire, we either need to table the Orc sphere until Open or discuss some redesign amongst the staff to fit more areas to accommodate that need. The orcs have a warren in Mirkwood, and there is the small PC lumber camp in the eaves of Mirkwood. To get alpha open, it is a small map.

So, TLDR: please tell me what life for an Orc in the Mountains of Mirkwood looks like when not encountering humans in the forest.

Throttle wrote:The only reason there was any racial imbalance was because SOI went full retard with their races and made a bunch of different denominations of each one. There'll hopefully be none of those Arnorian Dunedain, Plainsdweller Haradrim and Eotheod here.


We already ruled that out. There will be a "human" race with differentiation based on role, not race.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Zargen » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:03 pm

Off the top of my head -

Orcish mushroom farming is still good.

Orcish brewers brewing noxious beers.

Orcish distillers likewise brewing harsh and exotic orc liqour.

Orcish trappers I imagine would be a very common profession

Orcish miners/stonemasons(though they probably wouldnt call themselves that) someone has to dig those caves! If orcs are good at something its digging holes.

Orcish "shamans/chirugeon/bonesaw" The healer/herbalist type
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:02 pm

Zargen wrote:Off the top of my head -

Orcish mushroom farming is still good.

Orcish brewers brewing noxious beers.

Orcish distillers likewise brewing harsh and exotic orc liqour.

Orcish trappers I imagine would be a very common profession

Orcish miners/stonemasons(though they probably wouldnt call themselves that) someone has to dig those caves! If orcs are good at something its digging holes.

Orcish "shamans/chirugeon/bonesaw" The healer/herbalist type


If we're going for playability rather than strictly sticking to canon, which is probably good for the orc sphere, I like all of the above. I would think orcs could also craft jewelry. They like their bling just as much as humans. Nothing fancy though, just stuff made of bones, stone, crude metals like tin or iron, those sort of things. Maybe warg breeding if you'll be including wargs.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Zargen » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:09 am

I figured jewelry crafting was going to get lumped in with all the other typical orcish smithy stuff. I didnt mention stuff like leatherworkers or metalsmiths because with orcs its kind of a given.

But yea

Leatherworkers - ranging from crude furs and hides to...slightly less crude and thicker furs and hides. What would we say is the pinnacle of leatherworkers? IMO bone-reinforced armors and spider carapace armor would be the bee's knees of orcish leather fashion. Oh and warg armor

Blacksmiths - What kind of "general" metalwork needs done with orcs? Toolmaking. Definitely the bulk of processed metal materials like iron studs/rings/widgets.

Armorers - Whats the cut off on the technological level of orcs in this game scenario? Chain? Scale? Ring?

"jewelers" I put it in quotes to make it sound ironic. I doubt orcs would care overly much for fancy gems and gold. But would prefer manly things like iron and bone and a bracelet woven from the pubes of my enemies.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby MrDvAnt » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:15 pm

Zargen wrote:I figured jewelry crafting was going to get lumped in with all the other typical orcish smithy stuff. I didnt mention stuff like leatherworkers or metalsmiths because with orcs its kind of a given.

But yea

Leatherworkers - ranging from crude furs and hides to...slightly less crude and thicker furs and hides. What would we say is the pinnacle of leatherworkers? IMO bone-reinforced armors and spider carapace armor would be the bee's knees of orcish leather fashion. Oh and warg armor

Blacksmiths - What kind of "general" metalwork needs done with orcs? Toolmaking. Definitely the bulk of processed metal materials like iron studs/rings/widgets.

Armorers - Whats the cut off on the technological level of orcs in this game scenario? Chain? Scale? Ring?

"jewelers" I put it in quotes to make it sound ironic. I doubt orcs would care overly much for fancy gems and gold. But would prefer manly things like iron and bone and a bracelet woven from the pubes of my enemies.



o.O I demand pubes drop from enemy PCs!!!!!! Craftable ones.

I do, however, think orcs would love some jools and shiny metal.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Zargen » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:58 am

Side note to jewelry. Im sure weve all played arm and to a lesser extent kith's old lotr mud did it too. A trophy system on most npcs. Wearable bits and pieces of offal that you pull off dead animals. An orc covered in warg teeth and fangs he pulled off of aforementioned wargs. Or in the case of tarks they could turn in said teeth for a small reward for thinning out the population of manhungry nasties.


Another orcy culture idea I would be sore to not see is a dug out fighting pit.
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