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Progress!!

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Re: Progress!!

Postby krelm » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:50 pm

1 to 3 weeks.


I'll go ahead and take credit for this.
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Meneldor » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:15 am

WorkerDrone wrote:Tomorrow FOR SURE.


Never tomorrow, don't say that. Everyone knows tomorrow never comes. :twisted:
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Re: Progress!!

Postby krelm » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:13 pm

Just some stuff I've been working on;

- Audited a bunch of items and crafts, particularly weapons and weaponcrafts
- Made a simple-yet-effective way to load mobs onto the PP. The wilderness is now populated.
- Started working on armor. Have one set down, got maybe 2 or 3 more to do.
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Nimrod » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:57 pm

FYI - My post about 1 to 3 weeks for was Chargen. NOT the game.
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Taurgalas » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:00 pm

Like I said. We who handle crafts are working as fast as we can. I'd disclose all I've done, but you know, might as well save it so there's more to add to the Palantir. :)
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Hawkwind » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:20 pm

krelm wrote:Just some stuff I've been working on;

- Audited a bunch of items and crafts, particularly weapons and weaponcrafts
- Made a simple-yet-effective way to load mobs onto the PP. The wilderness is now populated.
- Started working on armor. Have one set down, got maybe 2 or 3 more to do.



Will these be simple rehash or copys of Atonements? I find it unlikely that those on the side of good would use serrated blades, bone hilts and all such better suited to orcs and goblin men.
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Re: Progress!!

Postby krelm » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:56 pm

We don't have any of atonement's building files, so we had to make them all from scratch. Right now we only have 3 different weapon variables-- I'm not sure if we're going to add more, or if we're going to make a variable for orc weapons and a variable for human weapons.
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Tepes » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:38 pm

I remember making variables. That was fun. Hope we end up with quite a few by the end of everything.
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Octavius » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:42 pm

...I DO have Atonement's building files, as I save all the code I loaded to make their weapons and am modifying it here. :)

The crafts are all different as our production methods vary significantly from ARPI. Krelm has been a huge help in debugging this - updating my old files for the new work isn't always clean. :) We've also added a few additional features which are neat for our smithy setting.

There are a few basic styles that are common to everyone and these have individual crafts to make them. There is then the ability for smiths to create patterns of their own which they can protect or share, and work like Atonement. I did use some of the ARPI basics - for example sabers are for everyone, arming swords are for humans, serrated are for orcs (the crafts are race-restricted). Knives and longknives are for everyone, stilettos are for humans, handspikes are for orcs.

Metal weapons can be refinished with a variable to be wrought-iron, polished to a shine, or to a mirror finish. Additional weapon skill can hone the edge of any weapon or add studs or spikes to bludgeons, improving their combat ability.

Should be enough to interest everyone.
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Hawkwind » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:01 pm

Can we find a better word for the game then patterns/designs/blueprints/specs?

EDIT

Also, on a related note with weapons and variables, there are only like 3 people really cared about, nobody cared (nor could probably tell outside of professionals of the leatherworking trade) what leather was used to bind the handle. A handful of things mattered for weapons, the blade style, the metal/quality of it and a single descriptor of the blade, one word blunted, burred, scratched, pocked, that's it. Those three things, the rest did not matter us in the slightest. It made creating weapons a pain, a challenge and eventually people lost interest and went for randomized after going through it a few times.
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Octavius » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:16 am

Hawkwind wrote:Can we find a better word for the game then patterns/designs/blueprints/specs?


We are not using patterns, blueprints, or specs; too modern.

Common styles will not require a pattern object at all - they have individual crafts. For example, there is a "forge basic-longknife" craft which produces a longknife blade every time. There is no "$smallblade mold" needed and a craftsman doesn't forget how to make longknives if he loses the pattern. [This was a major code change that we begged Nimrod for, and is huge for our environment.]

There are "designs" on vellum (for humans) or stone tablets (for orcs) which allow craftsmen to create custom designs that are not common, and which work like ARPI. This is a compromise to allow craftsmen players to expand with wide variety without burdening our craft-building further.

Hawkwind wrote:Also, on a related note with weapons and variables, there are only like 3 people really cared about,


We are not dismissive of those three people. Craftsmen PCs have always been a major component of SOI and continue to be.

We are striking a balance to allow craftsmen to have an enjoyable level of detail and those that don't care to, well, not care and move on to what they enjoy.

Hawkwind wrote: nobody cared (nor could probably tell outside of professionals of the leatherworking trade) what leather was used to bind the handle.


Everything on an item matters - every variable impacts at least the weight, NPC cost, and durability of an item, and we're working to make durability a much larger factor on SOI than it was on ARPI.

If your only concern is code, then rat-leather will make you repair your blade more often as the hilt frays and wears out. If you also like status symbols for roleplay, then bear-leather is not only more durable, but also shows you can afford to kill bears.

We have taken into account player feedback and changed the descriptions from what we did in ARPI; far fewer bits appear in the short description so that using the weapons and armor is less spammy. All details are still in the full desc for those that want to see them.

Hawkwind wrote: A handful of things mattered for weapons, the blade style, the metal/quality of it and a single descriptor of the blade, one word blunted, burred, scratched, pocked, that's it.


Everything matters, and moreso than ARPI, as many variables impact damage or combat ability as well as weight, cost, and durability, even where they might not have before.

Having a basic, ordinary, or superior weapon is still a significant change in all its attributes.

The haft or hilt of the weapon sets its size (one-handed, two-handed, or usable as both) and thus affects its raw damage. Other differences have corresponding logical impacts (a simple hilt with no crossguard, for example, makes it harder to parry).

Taking the effort to planish and polish the metal improves its cosmetics and thus its value to NPCs.

A new variable sets the edge of bladed weapons (sharpened, honed, razored) or modifications to a bludgeon's face (studs, spikes, etc). This allows a skilled craftsman to improve that aspect of any weapon (Basic, Ordinary, or Superior) to give it a coded benefit.

A new "weapon feature" option defaults to attaching basic pommels, but creates room for expansion by creative craftsmen to allow whatever new features on a weapon are desired. Studded with the teeth of a giant warg? It can go on there without requiring new objects. We can more easily accommodate the special requests that players always have.

Hawkwind wrote: Those three things, the rest did not matter us in the slightest. It made creating weapons a pain, a challenge and eventually people lost interest and went for randomized after going through it a few times.


Here you are talking about loading variables through a shop or in character creation, not in crafting. (In crafting they are always inherited and you don't get to choose to specify or randomize.)

It is our intent to never expose players on SOI to this process. The items in the character equipping rooms, and any in shops in town, will be pre-built. You will choose between whole items and never have to use the "specify all the variables" system.
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Khamul » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Also, on a related note with weapons and variables, there are only like 3 people really cared about...


We are not dismissive of those three people. Craftsmen PCs have always been a major component of SOI and continue to be.


I think he said that people only cared about three of the variables, not there were only three people that cared about variables. 8-)
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Octavius » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:41 pm

...and then I learned how to read. :oops:
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Matt » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:15 am

Any minute now to two weeks!
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Re: Progress!!

Postby deerskin » Thu May 01, 2014 7:23 pm

Now? Please?
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Nimrod » Fri May 02, 2014 12:13 am

Matt wrote:Any minute now to two weeks!

Yeah... Real Life ate me for a while. :( The good news though is that I'm going to be taking a week off from work to do some things around the house next week and I should have lots of time to finish a bunch of chargen stuff.
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Letters » Fri May 02, 2014 5:42 am

Matt wrote:two weeks

Matt wrote:two weeks

Matt wrote:two weeks


You just had to say it.
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Emilio » Fri May 02, 2014 6:51 am

Those are just words, Letters.
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Hawkwind » Fri May 02, 2014 8:36 pm

Octavius wrote:A whole load of stuff


That's awesome and such, but does not really address the point of half a dozen variables for one weapon outside of the big three being at all concerned about outside the initial honeymoon phase. I, and several others, are concerned that with all the effort to (And we thank you from the the pits of our wretched black hearts that you do) put so many variables in to the game (like we had on ARPI and PRPI) that it will in fact detract from the experience, being utterly spoiled for choice and having such a huge and varied selection that it becomes simply exhaustive.

Now this does not go for all things, variables are obviously a great help for furniture as an example, allowing the fast, easy production of a number of different items that in a coded manner fulfill the same exact specification, a place where characters can sit and place objects. But at this early stage in the games development we really can manage without a huge load of them bogging us down.

Now you mention that you took feedback during ARPI, that is fantastic I will not lie I loved parts of the game, but this is not ARPI, nor PRPI. This is a game with its own heritage, history and expectations. One thing that was quite different from SOI to ARPI was crafts for all sorts that did not really need crafts for, it was simply another step in producing a coded result, something that could of easily been done and embellished with our favorite command Dmote, my example is using soaps and showering.

Now my argument against these little finicky things is that when you remove the need to roleplay these and resort to code you remove what is the heart of the game, the roleplay. With a clear coded message that 'You smell of lavender' is clear, cut and dry you are fragrant. Any roleplay to the contrary is now incorrect. I am not entirely sure my point will come across well but in all honesty I believe the devil is in the details, that the nitty gritty stuff should be handled by the player, not have a simple code to produce stuff they should be encouraged to do on their own.

I will try to add more examples as they come back to me, but I've had rather a lot of rum and am feeling quite giddy. :D
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Re: Progress!!

Postby krelm » Sat May 03, 2014 12:14 am

Hawkwind wrote:Words and more words


While I haven't actually done as much work as other people, I have been clocking in quite a few hours here lately, and I'll tell you that, at least on my end, I've been using as few variables as possible, because variables are the devil.

For example, I just finished shields. They have 6 variables on them, but of those 6 variables, PCs will really only have to think of two, and those two are, at the moment, purely cosmetic - one is the shape of the shield (8 different shapes), and the other is what type of adornment the shield will have (boss-fitted, saw-edged, etc, there are about 4 of these). The other 4 variables come from objects used to make the shield-- so if you use a birch tree, the shield will be made of birch, etc. Theoretically you could fret and fret over it and wait till you cut down the PERFECT tree and get the PERFECT metal and blahblahblah, or you could be like me and just make a shield out of whatever you have lying around because who gives a rat's.

Personally, I feel like non-variable items are more special than variable. Creating variable items feels sort of industrialized to me, and you can never get an item that strays away from, say, "an X Y sword with a Z hilt," or whatever. From old SoI, I remember specific sdescs of badass items (like "a heavy, dark iron battlesword," or "a blackened iron trapjaw helm,") but from, say, Atonement BETA, there isn't a single item that sticks out in my memory like that.

TL;DR, I'm on the same page as you with variables and how they suck, but at this point I want a non-shitty MUD to play more than I care about how much I won't remember an item's sdesc in 5 years. Maybe later on people will start putting in badass non-variable items.
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Taurgalas » Sat May 03, 2014 8:56 am

I tend to agree with Krelm. Variables have their uses and it's convenient to make multiple items to populate the game with quickly. I still feel like there's a certain amount of quality and uniqueness that brought life to SOI that is lost with variabled items. They have their uses and they should be used to augment the world, not make it entirely. I disagree with making everything variabled and I hope that we get away from that eventually. Yes, you have more choices to customize standard items with, but is there really excitement with multiple standard items that use the same process? It fills out the world faster, but doesn't provide it with greater depth. I have high hopes that the main reason we're dealing so heavily with variables at the moment is for the sake of getting the game open quickly and the uniqueness that made SOI memorable will be brought in AFTER we have a gameworld populated and playable. Please note, this isn't necessarily staff opinion, just one tree's. :D
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Throttle » Sat May 03, 2014 1:18 pm

Give me a bruise-black pair of dogleather textured-soled cavalry shoes with yellow and purple laces or give me death.
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Icarus » Sun May 04, 2014 8:50 pm

Trust me, I'm right there with you guys.

Variables help us get a lot of stuff in the game without an overwhelming batch of crazy objects. Auditing every item on SOI was insane and awful, and vars let us have more with less. That said, I hear you loud and clear, and once we get the base items in, I'm sure there will be plenty of room for nifty items. SOI was all about them nifty items.
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Re: Progress!!

Postby Matt » Wed May 07, 2014 10:22 pm

Two more weeks!!!
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Re: Progress!!

Postby toofast » Fri May 09, 2014 8:35 pm

Just talked to Kite, two weeks confirmed.

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