Avoiding a Derail, Re: RPP, Costs, Relevance as Trust

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Avoiding a Derail, Re: RPP, Costs, Relevance as Trust

Post by WorkerDrone » Sat May 24, 2014 10:21 pm

It was getting to this point, and I didn't want to fully derail the other thread, but I figure it merited discussion still. I believe that it goes further than RPP being used as a currency, or trust being used as a currency, though that in itself is silly and weird and I never fully understood the reasoning behind it, except that the reasoning itself was formed on the basis that you would discourage players from playing concepts over and over again, even if that was the thing they wanted to do.

But the reason it didn't make sense to me, even if it was in the argument For Diversity, using RPP or even any other system that denotes a level of staff trust in a person's capability in playing an advanced role, doesn't make any lick of sense.

I'll feel free to echo Krelm in an early post that I too have always been in favor of limitations that required, but did not cost RPP, because it's just as easy to go, hey, I do not trust a player to play these levels of roles, and in an RPP review you could just deduct a point and even leave positive feedback on -why- staff doesn't trust them to do so.

Going further, on the usual argument FOR Diversity in the gameworld and limiting people playing the same things over and over again, why take away people's ability to play a role again in any timely fashion when you could simply limit their ability to play that same role as their next character, forcing them to get their feet wet in something else before returning to the idea?

You might make other arguments on why my ideas or anything anyone else could cook up would be good, and keep in mind I'm just pointing out PAST administrations stances on this subject, rather than this current one, but one thing I'll point out before letting other people voice their thoughts is:

It takes a significant amount of time, more so the higher your accrued "trust" or RPP is to regain what you're losing due to punitive costs, because often you either lose ALL the RPP you spent on that role, or in the case of old SoI you would lose half of it. And due to how the RPP awarding system went, you would receive;

The First RPP during the course of one staff review.

The Second RPP after a period of time.

The Third RPP after an increasing period of time.

The Fourth RPP after an even exponentially greater period of time.

And so on and so forth, damning your relevance in terms of trust even if you've obtained it before, because of an arbitrary timeframe.

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Re: Avoiding a Derail, Re: RPP, Costs, Relevance as Trust

Post by Jeshin » Sat May 24, 2014 10:41 pm

RPP, Karma, Staff trust, Special roles, and sponsored roles all come down to the same thing. Fear. (edit: Fear of ruining the RP enviroment/Sphere with a poorly played role)

From what I have seen thus far, SoI has one of the more mature playerbases in the MUDing community. I truly believe the majority of people posting on the forum could be trusted with an 'RPP role' 'sponsored role' 'whatever role' and they'd do fine at it. The whole RPP system is basically a way to automate staff trust and try to remove the perception of favoritism. In reality if someone is a good RPer or they pitch a character concept passionately then staff should be able to determine if they want it in game.

TLDR: RPP and its equalivants are actually bad for games and simple staff oversight is better albeit more work than automation.
Last edited by Jeshin on Sat May 24, 2014 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Avoiding a Derail, Re: RPP, Costs, Relevance as Trust

Post by WorkerDrone » Sat May 24, 2014 10:44 pm

I completely agree with the above.
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Re: Avoiding a Derail, Re: RPP, Costs, Relevance as Trust

Post by Kayube » Sat May 24, 2014 10:50 pm

I usually feel like it makes more sense to have separate counts of the kind of RPP that one would spend and the kind you'd keep as a measure of trust, since deciding to play an elf or whatever wouldn't cause the staff to trust you less. It could be as simple as just counting the total RPP earned over the course of a player's time, along with the current RPP on hand.

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Re: Avoiding a Derail, Re: RPP, Costs, Relevance as Trust

Post by Pallando » Sat May 24, 2014 11:01 pm

Do also take a look at the earlier discussion on RPP over here folks: http://www.middle-earth.us/forums/viewt ... adge#p3155

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Re: Avoiding a Derail, Re: RPP, Costs, Relevance as Trust

Post by krelm » Sat May 24, 2014 11:58 pm

I don't quite know what the idea for RPP and stuff will be in this iteration of SoI, but I think it'll be a lot like the proposed idea for Atonement, way back pre-ALPHA.

The idea was that we were going to have RPP and "badges." The badges would allow people to play roles-- so, if you have a Leadership Badge, you could play any role listed beneath that badge, same with like, the Craftsman Badge, or whatever. Then, if I remember correctly, RPP were going to be used and spent for stuff like skillgains or stat adjustments, stuff like that (keep in mind this was like 4 or 5 years ago so I'm a bit hazy on the specifics).

Another thing about old SoI was that there were no specific reasons that RPP was given, outside of "staff trust" or, let's face it, favoritism. I remember there was some general guideline for RPP levels in Atonement-- you'd get your 3rd RPP and know, specifically, why-- but in SoI, I remember getting at least 2 or 3 RPP and having absolutely no idea why. I still don't know.

RPP has always just been a pretty weird thing.
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Re: Avoiding a Derail, Re: RPP, Costs, Relevance as Trust

Post by Thorongil » Sun May 25, 2014 9:09 am

So, just for people's reference, these are the original RPP guidelines for SOI from about 2006:
What Are Roleplay Points?

Over time, players here at Shadows of Isildur may amass units of confidence from the staff we call "roleplay points". They are given out by staff members for various facets of exemplary roleplay, and are used by players in character generation to create new PCs in various restricted roles and races or cultures. The points are stored on your account, so they may transfer from one of your lifetimes into the next; thus, over time you may accumulate more.

As mentioned above, roleplay points are strictly representative of how much trust the staff places in you as a player. They are not indicative of how much we like you as a person, they are not indicative of how long you have played here, nor are they indicative, strictly speaking, of the overall quality of your roleplay. As outlined below, an absolutely stellar roleplayer prone to bouts of retiring numerous PCs or not logging in for months at a time will likely find himself with less roleplay points in the end than a strong roleplayer with a track record of consistent dedication to the game and her characters' roles.

Finally, to re-iterate, roleplay points are strictly used in character generation, to allow players designing new PCs access to restricted races and roles. Once you are finished with your application, they have absolutely no bearing on the game whatsoever - once out of the gate, they are completely irrelevant to your character's fate.

Do I Need Them?

Absolutely not. In fact, it's a not-uncommon occurrence to hear players with them remark that they very rarely use them; most people prefer to "build" a character from the ground up in-game, providing them with a rich history shared with many other PCs. Also, it is well-known that as you reach the upper echelons of the system, you encounter roles that are more and more restricted in their social interactions with other players; as the saying goes, it gets lonely at the top. These roles also tend to come with a great deal of responsibility that restricts your freedom as a player due to the amount of work involved in performing the required duties.

Almost anything that can be accomplished by using roleplay points on an application in character generation can be achieved through hard work in-game - and for the reasons outlined above, many of our veteran players even prefer to do it that way. There are exceptions, such as playing a Wise or a restricted race, but they are quite rare.

How Do I Know If I Have Them?

In addition to having additional options available to you in the character generation sequence, once there are roleplay points attached to your login account you will see an additional line in the SCORE command, right below your attributes, informing you how many you have.

The ability to see this information is set OFF by default; if you wish the score command to show you this total, you must first use the SET RPP command. You may enter the command a second time to once more remove that line from the output.

How Do I Get Them?

As mentioned above, awarding roleplay points is solely the province of the administrative staff. Before examining the criteria set forth below, however, there are a few things you need to keep in mind. First and foremost: roleplay points are a privilege, not a right. Many players have gone for months or even a year or more before acquiring their first point; those without the patience for such a process would quite likely not prove adequate for many of the roles these points unlock. So - be patient, and you'll quite likely find yourself rewarded!

As a corollary to this rule, emailing the admin staff to inquire whether or not you've simply been overlooked for a point award is quite fine. Contacting us, however, to demand that we give you the points you deserve, or to tell us why we were wrong in choosing to abstain from awarding you those points, will certainly not get you anywhere - unless, of course, you're looking to get on our bad side. This sort of behavior is simply not tolerated; at best you will be ignored, and at worst we may impose sanctions on you for wasting our time.

That said, the general criteria the staff are bound by in awarding points, as well as the number of players currently at each point-level, are as follows:

Point 1 (2.59%, or 148 players): Demonstration of a solid grasp of the game, the concept, and the gameworld; exhibits thoughtful, articulate and polished roleplay interaction. Has clearly learned to delineate IC from OOC information, and has not committed any serious policy infractions (those warranting loss of access to the game) within the previous 120 days.

Point 2 (1.7%, or 97 players): Consistent demonstration of the requirements for the first point; no less than 30 days have passed since the date of the previous award.

Point 3 (0.65%, or 37 players): Demonstration of low- to mid-level leadership ability; exhibits the ability to involve other PCs in roleplay plots, and to log in and play with regularity.

Point 4 (0.65%, or 37 players): Consistent demonstration of the requirements for the third point; no less than 60 days have passed since the date of the previous award.

Point 5 (0.28%, or 16 players): Demonstration of strong leadership and organizational ability, as well as the ability to create and maintain plots while keeping other PCs interested.

Point 6 (0.21%, or 12 players): Consistent demonstration of the requirements for the fifth point; no less than 90 days have passed since the date of the previous award.

Point 7+ (0.23%, or 13 players): Awarded for individual instances and scenes of highly exemplary roleplay, in no greater a frequency than one point per any 120 day-period.

Can I Lose Them?

Yes, primarily in two ways. First: as explained below, submitting an application for a character of a restricted race will dock a part of the application's point cost from your account, in order to encourage our players to keep those races rare sights in-game.

Secondly, as these points are a measure of the staff's trust in you, if you do anything to abuse that trust you may find yourself missing points. Although the most obvious way to accomplish this is to exhibit poor roleplay on a level unbecoming your point total, there are other ways as well. For example, things such as consistent flaming or harassment of the staff or other players over email or on the web forum, using information gleaned OOCly to your character's benefit, or, in general, violating any of our policies, would all suffice.

Generally, if a staff member needs to go so far as to penalize you in such a way, you will receive an email detailing what you did to prompt such a response. For a variety of reasons, this is not always the case, however; therefore, if you find yourself missing points and are genuinely unsure as to what you may have done to deserve this, you are certainly welcome to inquire via email, provided you do so in a respectful and civil manner.

What Can I Do With Them?

As mentioned briefly above, roleplay points allow you to unlock certain restricted roles and races during the character generation process. In the case of roles, you are allowed to step right into the game in one of various elevated positions, rather than having to work your way into the role in-game as players without the requisite points must do. In the case of races, only those players with the required amount of points are permitted to play them in-game.

Unlike other RPIs you may have played, we do not allow special applications. If there is a role listed below that you wish to play, you must achieve the point requirement to do so; we do not and will not make exceptions for anyone, regardless of their past history here or their roleplay abilities. That said, however, if there is a specific role you wish to play that you do not see listed, and if you have enough roleplay points for any comparable roles that are listed, you should feel free to email the staff and inquire if an application for a character in the desired role would be feasible in terms of the game's structure. We will almost always try our best to accomodate reasonable requests of that nature, if you're willing to work with us.

We also differ from other RPIs using a point-based system for access to restricted characters in that, depending on the circumstance, submitting such an application will dock a certain number of points from your account. The rule is as follows: races will subtract half of their point requirement from your account total after a certain 'grace period' of playtime, whereas roles will not. This is done to keep restricted non-starting races a rare occurrence in the gameworld and preserve thematic continuity. Furthermore, costs do not stack; so, if you want to play a Dwarvish armorsmith, you will only need to meet the point requirements for whichever of the two elements is more expensive, and not both combined.

Finally, you should know that not all races and roles available in character generation are listed here. Although these lists are generated directly from the game's database, some sensitive roles, as well as certain exceedingly rare races, have been flagged 'hidden' by the staff, and thus are only viewable in character generation to those players with the requisite points.

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Re: Avoiding a Derail, Re: RPP, Costs, Relevance as Trust

Post by Tiamat » Mon May 26, 2014 9:46 am

I posted this elsewhere on these forums, but to weigh in on the discussion of what I thought, in response to discussion about RPP roles:
If you might hear out some suggestions from an admin curmudgeon about where RPP roles are concerned, I do NOT recommend allowing 0-RPP role app-ins to any coded clan, let alone higher-RPP leadership roles. Some of the reasons for this are because:

1) Players being unsuited towards different styles of play. Unless you intend on having a very involved admin process on approving RPP roles, like having multiple admins give the thumbs up before allowing a character in, a crafter player with 3 RPP does not mean they're ready for a combat leadership role if they app'd into the military.

2) Quality control. Apps are already a way to quality control, but if you let newbies roll into a clan automatically, you potentially disrupt the environment with players that aren't really suited towards their chosen clan. Spending in-game effort on these one-off or ill-suited newbies burns your leaders out really fast. Letting recruitment happen naturally IG is generally a better learning process for newbies. If there's a concern of engaging players quickly before they lose interest, I'd propose you have a small, contained game-world that has only has, at most, two major centres of interest (eg. a tavern, a town square).

3. RPP =/= Coded Rewards. This is an ideology debate. If you haven't ironed it out, I'd give some thought on what you intend RPP to be. To me, RPP represents trust in the player to role-play effectively and immersively in your game-world. And indeed, that's what SOI1/ARPI said they were. In retrospect, I'm not sure why SOI1/ARPI decided to equate these signs of trust into coded rewards like skill boosts and stat boosts depending on race/role. You don't need to award players with coded goodies to reflect that they're contributing to the game-world.

Just wanted to give my two cents based on the experience I've had on ARPI.

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Re: Avoiding a Derail, Re: RPP, Costs, Relevance as Trust

Post by hobbitboots » Mon May 26, 2014 9:57 am

Yeah, my complaint with how RPPs have been handled in the past is that they were used as a gateway for playing a statistically strong character.

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