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Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 5:35 pm
by Tiamat
Branching off from the orc board thread, what are our feelings about giving players the option of making a wiki page dedicated to character blurbs? Would that be too "meta", or would that give some insight into what you'd know publicly about a certain character? The blurbs in themselves would just be general information that anyone would know about the PC.

Thoughts and opinions?

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 5:42 pm
by Hawkwind
Sounds too metagamey, it was too metagamey when we had one last time. You essentially gain information from an OOC source, with a renewed stance on sharing info and who you play perhaps we can save it all for the inevitable Green Dragon post.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 5:53 pm
by Letters
If it's staff-maintained, I guess it could work.

If it's left open for players to submit whatever they like, you'll get some putting up essays and short stories instead of blurbs.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 6:05 pm
by Tiamat
This will be admin-maintained due to how the wiki works.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 6:22 pm
by toofast
Coming over from my post in the orc board thread, I'll summarize. Way too metagamey and 'house'. Gives me a bad taste in my mouth, haha. :?

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 6:26 pm
by tehkory
I'm all for single-paragraph blurbs that let us 'enforce' what the world is. The bigger we make the wiki/the more we lean on it, the more important we can make the -other- parts of it. The smaller it is, it doesn't matter what's there, people won't look. Documentation is great. Documentation about PCs is equally great!

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 6:45 pm
by Matt
Tiamat wrote:This will be admin-maintained due to how the wiki works.
This sounds like a massive amount of unneeded work for little gain. I don't like the idea especially since there's going to be a lot of PCs. So admins will be in charge of putting up new PCs and taking down old ones? That's a lot for very little.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:25 pm
by sod
Maybe if there was one it could be limited to automatically adding accepted character's full desc, with space for players to submit an image/drawing/lookalike through their generator account.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:45 pm
by hobbitboots
Something automated like that would be the only way to do it. Matt is correct that it would be a poor use of precious staff effort to handle all of the necessary updates for character entries. Back in the day it was handled by players, and even then the entries often went neglected.

Honestly, I wouldn't shed a tear if they didn't make a return. For a variety of reasons, I think it's better to learn about characters IG by gossiping and just living out your character's life.

Some of those old character entries were pretty much vanity pages and had a tendency of giving a biased opinion on characters because they were usually written by the character's player!

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 8:29 pm
by Brian
Not in favor. I think it's better all around if the only way to learn about people is to interact with them in the game.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 9:12 pm
by Tiamat
Matt raises up a good point about admin manpower vs. benefits (read, I'd be updating it all :P). I'll likely put this project on the back-burner for now, as it's not imperative to releasing the game. I'm interested in everyone's input however, and it's good to get some feedback on the general outlook on making a meta character wiki. Keep it coming if you've got thoughts on this.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 9:35 pm
by Matt
Well, I can abuse the crap out of it if I wanted to. If I were to take a scouty group out to put some arrows in some pink-flesh it'd be pretty useful to just be able to know who's who. I could just look up on the wiki and do a little reading and figure out who the more important fighters are. Tell my fellow orcs to aim in on them. Should make us learn who the important targets are by getting our asses whooped by them.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 10:03 pm
by Nimrod
Thank you for your opinions, all. We really appreciate it.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 10:35 pm
by toofast
If something like this went live, I'd seriously hope that you make it optional to be on the list.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 10:40 pm
by Tiamat
By the opinions and thoughts given in this thread (and even before the thread), I was already leery of this idea, but wanted to get a survey. It's subject to admin review, but it'd absolutely be optional if it was implemented.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 11:56 pm
by Holmes
I thought these definitely contributed something positive to the game back on SoI, so long as they were properly maintained and filled with only information that would've been publicly knowledgeable.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 8:41 am
by crayon
I'm kind of with Kory and Holmes.

It's also worth keeping in mind sometimes that where information is concerned the OOC/IC barrier has to be much more fluid than people are wont to admit. There are times when your CHARACTER ought to possess IC knowledge that you yourself LACK OOCly. Just as there will be times when you possess IC knowledge that your character lacks. Where in the latter case, player discretion and a general play-culture guide players to wall off the IC information they have OOCly to keep it from influencing the play of a character that is ignorant of it, the former case can only really be resolved with lots of abundant documentation, and OOC questions, things which can be denied access to with militant enforcement of a more ARBITRARY OOC/IC barrier.

TL;DR: Wikis are pretty awesome. Even player-managed. As long as the guidelines are clear, most players will play fair. It would kind of be a big help for getting newbies into the game world, and enhancing the feeling that people know OF each other, even if you OOCly know squat.

Ever been that guy who rolls a character who's a lifelong whatever, only to have literally no clue about anything? Yeah. It sucks. Wiki.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:11 am
by sod
I think if there's going to be one, it should maybe be set up through the chargen (if possible). Then it can be approved all at once.

Maybe there's a box for a one-liner of what a character would be known for in their community, ie: 'a curmudgeonly fisherman from Laketown', 'a disowned, apprenticing blacksmith', something like an sdesc which has details that could easily be found out through a rumor mill. Then just automatically put the full-description in there, and a box for a 200x300 (or whatever) character image. Have the whole thing opt-in.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:19 am
by toofast
Yeah, sod, I didn't like the idea of my characters whole, detailed description getting put on the wiki the first time you suggested it and it's still not sitting well. I don't really mind since a staff member already said it'd be optional (so nothing would automatically be posted on a wiki).

This is coming from a guy who hates MUSHes and enjoys the anonymity that multiple spheres provide in something like Armageddon.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:51 am
by Nyneve
I personally really enjoy character page wikis. If you keep the information to a minimum, I think it's sortof fun to have names with faces, so to speak.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:59 am
by hobbitboots
crayon wrote: It's also worth keeping in mind sometimes that where information is concerned the OOC/IC barrier has to be much more fluid than people are wont to admit. There are times when your CHARACTER ought to possess IC knowledge that you yourself LACK OOCly. Just as there will be times when you possess IC knowledge that your character lacks.
I appreciate your point. It is definitely awkward, for example, when you roll a character that's supposed to have lived in a town all his life but you as the player don't know who's who IG at the moment. It leads to that awkward scene where you're introducing yourself at the bar. "Oh, I'm a grizzled old lumberjack. I know you haven't noticed me here before, but I've actually lived here since I was a wee lad. Nice to meet you." "Hello, Sir Lumberjack. I'm the mayor. " Awkward. A wiki could easily solve that problem. MUSHes that I've played before solved this problem with something like a wiki method, and it worked fine for them.

I don't think this is a good solution for SoI, though. MUDs typically have more of an emphasis on hard coded consequences and non-consensual roleplay. For example, if you're out cutting wood, an orc can freely attack you for PK or torture purposes, because that's in theme for the game. In that environment, knowledge about who's who is useful intel (as Matt already pointed out). By putting it up on a wiki, you're putting the orc's character in an awkward position. Do they 'be good' and not use the intel for raiding purposes, or do they use it because everybody else is probably doing it. I'd rather have a system that just doesn't require any sort of active policing, whether that's players policing themselves or staff having to spend time on it.

As a second point, I think having players work out who's who may be awkward at first for some roles, but in the long run it actually leads to more natural interaction between characters. When you don't have a wiki to check, you're forced to form your own opinions about the characters you meet. You have to do all the sleuthing to find out their history if you're interested in them. People you don't spend them time on, well you just don't know about them. This is pretty much how it works in real life, so it leads to more natural storytelling.

TL;DR - It pays to make people do the footwork to learn about other character ICly because it makes the game better in the long run.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 11:20 am
by Matt
Could make it so people can post on IG boards before they even commence, make it a different color when they do.

'Billy the Badass'

Billy the Badass has been a citizen of Laketown for his whole life. He's been out of the spotlight until recently because he had a bad case of orc stabbing face a few seasons back. But you'd know etc etc etc.

That's maybe an option so people know who -you- are going in. IDK about the other way around though.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 11:37 am
by sod
I really like that idea. If there were rooms in the commencement, one specific to orcs and one specific to humans, where there was a board for people to read basic who's who in their area - maybe with the same board accessible in whatever popular common area, I think that would be great.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 11:47 am
by Matt
I don't think it's really necessary for orcs haha. There's plenty of reason orc PCs don't know who the new runt is.

Re: Opinions on a Character Page Wiki

Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 4:47 pm
by tehkory
I'mma step in right now and say: misuse does not negate proper use. The idea that bad players will use the wiki to assist in knowing who to kill doesn't mean anything, actually. We're kidding ourselves. With or without a wiki, throughout the whole of SoI, OOC contact and infosharing was enough to provide this 'service' of 'knowing who to kill.'

It is going to happen no matter what, and the wiki isn't going to do squat to actually help people in this, because it'll all be hearsay. Players infosharing will still be the superior method for 'bad players' to OOCly figure out who to target, and players will still spread this information between eachother and carry it over from PC to PC. It's not going to stop because we don't put up that Joebob is a drunken wreck of a man who's been useless since his daughter died.