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Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:56 pm
by Icarus
So... if Tiamat could cross-reference this with other information provided, and then put it on the wiki, that'd be great! These are the attributes that effect things in Chargen and further in the game.

Brawling - Agi & Str
Small Blade - Agi & Dex
Long-Blade - Agi & Dex - Requires Bludgeon or Polearm
Polearm - Agi - Opens Long-Blade
Bludgeon - Agi & Str - Opens Long Blade
Dodge - Agi & Int
Deflect - Dex & Int
Sole-wield - Agi - Opens Dual-Wield
Dual-Wield - Agi & Dex - Requires Sole-Wield
Aim - Int & Dex
Sneak - Agi & Int
Hide - Agi & Int
Steal - Int & Dex - RPP Restricted
Picklock - Int & Dex - RPP Restricted
Haggle - Int & Aur
Handle - Int & Aur
Hunting - Int & Wil
First Aid - Int & Dex - Opens Medicine
Medicine - Int & Dex - Requires First-Aid
Forage - Int & Wil
Eavesdrop - Int & Wil
Butchery - Dex & Wil
Weaponcraft - Int & Wil - Requires Metalcraft, Woodcraft, or Stonecraft
Armorcraft - Int & Wil - Requires Leathercraft or Textilecraft
Artistry - Int & Wil
Education - Int & Wil - Opens Tengwar Cirith - RPP Restricted
Metalcraft - Dex & Str - Opens Weaponcraft
Leathercraft - Dex & Str - Opens Armorcraft
Textilecraft - Dex & Int - Opens Armorcraft
Woodcraft - Dex & Str - Opens Weaponcraft
Cooking - Dex & Int
Baking - Dex & Int
Brewing - Dex & Int
Fishing - Dex & Int
Stonecraft - Dex & Str - Opens Weaponcraft
Eathencraft - Dex & Str
Gardening - Dex & Int
Farming - Str & Int
Shortbow - Agi & Dex
Longbow - Dex & Int
Crossbow - Dex & Int
Music - Dex & Aur

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:07 pm
by WildGiller
I'm currently working away with the skills list on the wiki for Tiamat. Would you be able to clarify for me what exactly 'Deflect' encompasses?

Is that a hybrid of parry/block?

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:25 pm
by Icarus
Deflect primarily encompasses shield use.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:37 pm
by hobbitboots
Wait... are you implying dodge actually does something now?

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:27 pm
by Icarus
Nothing more than in the past.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:56 pm
by Letters
Icarus wrote:Nothing more than in the past.
Which is to say, not a lot, right? Dodge was never actually checked against unless you were unarmed and not carrying a shield. I'm guessing you maybe meant to say that deflect encompasses both parry and shield use, but that shields give a boost to deflect? Maybe?

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:46 pm
by WorkerDrone
I'm pretty sure Dodge hasn't been changed at all, nor Deflect any from what it was on Atonement. It's exactly the same, that is to say, Dodge is useless except when brawling, in which case it is marginally less useless.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:20 pm
by Zargen
Thought I'd point out stonecraft doesn't actually open up weaponcrafting if you're an orc like it says it does. Same with bludgeons. They dont open up Long-blades.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:23 pm
by LuckyV
I thought dodge also is used to avoid crit hits or smth like that.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:52 am
by Icarus
Zargen, open up a support ticket plz.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:48 am
by Letters
In character creation, dual-wield is described as:

"The effectiveness of one's ability to wield a weapon in both hands, defensively and offensively, normally characterized by a double-handed grip."

Sole-wield is described as:

"The effectiveness of one's ability to wield a weapon in one hand, defensively and offensively."

Unless there's been a major overhaul of the combat system, neither of those is correct. Sole-wield in ARPI was for a character's ability to wield a single weapon in one or both hands, while dual-wield was for a pair of weapons, or a weapon and shield.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:03 pm
by RiderOnTheStorm
Wasn't sure where to ask, figured this might work.

Do penalties when dual wielding stack?

Like if you wield 2 daggers, that both have a 'significantly hinders your deflect skill', are you getting hit with that twice?

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:39 pm
by Icarus
Probably.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:31 pm
by RiderOnTheStorm
Can you learn skills like Long-Blade and Dual Wield on grid without learning the pre-req first?

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:32 pm
by krelm
RiderOnTheStorm wrote:Can you learn skills like Long-Blade and Dual Wield on grid without learning the pre-req first?
Yes.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:31 pm
by RiderOnTheStorm
Would someone be kind enough to list the descriptors of skills & stats in order please? I keep forgetting them.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:23 am
by Beyondtheveil
So is it possible to pick up a sword for example, start training/sparring/fighting with it and eventually pick up the skill?

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:28 am
by Nezerin
Beyondtheveil wrote:So is it possible to pick up a sword for example, start training/sparring/fighting with it and eventually pick up the skill?
Yes.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:30 am
by Fatherandy
Beyondtheveil wrote:So is it possible to pick up a sword for example, start training/sparring/fighting with it and eventually pick up the skill?
Exactly. Key change added to this codebase since old SOI... you can learn anything by trying long and hard enough.

If you ARE going to find a teacher to teach you, though, make sure they use the Teach command first, before you start practicing. Not sure if it changed, but teaching helps a lot in that circumstance where it is more modest in helping after practice has begun.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:48 am
by Letters
Letters wrote:In character creation, dual-wield is described as:

"The effectiveness of one's ability to wield a weapon in both hands, defensively and offensively, normally characterized by a double-handed grip."

Sole-wield is described as:

"The effectiveness of one's ability to wield a weapon in one hand, defensively and offensively."

Unless there's been a major overhaul of the combat system, neither of those is correct. Sole-wield in ARPI was for a character's ability to wield a single weapon in one or both hands, while dual-wield was for a pair of weapons, or a weapon and shield.
Going by the wiki, at least, this still needs to be addressed.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:58 pm
by ebp72992
Yeah... I rolled in with sole-wield and bludgeon, but since I haven't found any two-handed weapons yet, I've been dual-wielding hammers. As a result, my bludgeon has gone up, but sole-wield has not whatsoever. So I think sole-wield is still using two-hands on a weapon, whereas dual-wield is still using a weapon in each hand.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:51 pm
by MrT2G
Sole-wield = using 1 weapon, either in both hands or in one hand without a shield.

Dual-wield = using 1 weapon with a shield, or using 1 weapon in each hand.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:35 am
by inkbottles
I am very sad about dodge meaning nothing. Kind of gimps anyone playing a non beefcake. Also dual wield is overly good as it has been said. There should be a solid to hit penalty for fighting with 2 weapons. Shield use should be a skill and sword and board style sole wield.

Just my two coppers anyway.

Again alpha etc etc but skewed mechanics tend to lead to cookie cutter char builds.

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:48 am
by kestrel
Yeah - strength-based PCs are still probably overpowered in combat, which is a shame.

Two-weapon fighting on its own isn't that great. It's shield-use that's so nice (or, even better, a PC with a shield and a secondary weapon capable of making tactically sound decisions as to which approach to use on the fly).

The two good things about sole-wield:

1. If you take the time to work both sole-wield and dual-wield to high levels then you're going to have a pretty huge edge in PvP.
2. Sole-wield's "ward" command (accessible when the skill hits Talented) is really useful when you're swarmed with a bunch of mobs, and may be one of the very best survival mechanisms for a lone fighter suddenly caught facing a group and trying like hell to get out of there alive.
3. A strength-first PC using sole-wield can be pretty scary. I'd prefer dual-wield with that build, but still - it isn't a bad setup.

Well, it's ALPHA. We can always slightly nerf strength's combat bonuses! (And wouldn't THAT lead to forum-rage.)

Re: Skills - What do they actually use?

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:31 am
by Throttle
inkbottles wrote:I am very sad about dodge meaning nothing. Kind of gimps anyone playing a non beefcake. Also dual wield is overly good as it has been said. There should be a solid to hit penalty for fighting with 2 weapons. Shield use should be a skill and sword and board style sole wield.

Just my two coppers anyway.

Again alpha etc etc but skewed mechanics tend to lead to cookie cutter char builds.
While dodge is indeed pretty unimportant in the current code, deflect doesn't favor strength in any way. The skill is derived from dex and int, and it does the same thing that parry and block did in the old SOI code, just combined into one skill. If anything, I think agi and dex are finally worthwhile stats. Also, dodge isn't completely pointless for a sole-wielder since they're otherwise helpless when they fumble their weapon.

I actually don't think strength is that great in the current state of the game. Its influence on damage has always been overrated, and with there being no armor above leather and no way to get superhuman strength in order to use two-handed weapons in one hand, most of the stat's real benefits are absent. It also affects almost no skills, so going with the str+con cookie cutter means most of your skills will probably cap around adroit or even lower.