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Craft Branching

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Craft Branching

Postby Tiamat » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:00 pm

I've seen people talking about this, and how there's a lot of bloat in the crafts. I'm not sure why the design choice was made to not use patterns, seeing all the oval-shield, diamond-shield, etc. etc. crafts. But if that's going to be the case, has Staff ever considered the crazy idea of just getting rid of craft branching altogether for ALPHA and giving players all of the crafts from the getgo?

Unless an oval shield is significantly better than a kite shield other than flavor choice in the code, you're just putting artificial fluff in the craft suite.

Here's my reasoning:

1) There's no reason why a novice can't try to make something that's way more difficult than his/her skill level. Does it mean they'll succeed? No. They'll probably waste at least x4 the resources failing a craft than a pro will.

2) You get more feedback on all skill levels of the craft suite, for testing purposes in ALPHA.

3) It makes the fluff significantly less annoying if you have access to all the flavor choices. Craft branching is no longer a concern.

With this system, however, Staff would have to make sure skill checks are solid at every level to predict how much a novice would fail (or straight up fail) a skill check. Ideally, you'd want Amateur-level crafters to be able to do Familiar-level skills in anywhere from 4-10 tries. And Familiar-level crafters will never be able to create Master-level crafts, except on a critical success (maybe 1% chance). They'd also have to make sure the amount of input = value of output.

In other words, you have to waste a LOT of materials trying to do a Master-level craft if you're a Familiar-level crafter.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Tiamat » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:06 pm

To clarify, I mean, give a woodcrafter all of their woodcrafting crafts, or an armorsmith all their armorcrafting crafts, etc. I'm not saying to give EVERYONE access to every single craft.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby BoogtehWoog » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:13 pm

Wouldn't this be an issue with alpha characters since they will carry into release should they survive?
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Tiamat » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:15 pm

BoogtehWoog wrote:Wouldn't this be an issue with alpha characters since they are going to also will also carry into release should they survive?


Sure? But if they survive that long, they'll probably have the skills to match their craft suite. I don't think that's a big deal. And so what if you have some characters that have access to everything?

If they suck at Woodcrafting, they're still not going to be able to make a masterfully crafted king-sized bed in one try that requires x99999 precious shiny wood.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby BoogtehWoog » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:17 pm

*nods*

I cannot really offer much insight into this, so I'll leave it to others to judge what the best course of action is.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby WildGiller » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:27 pm

I'm not even sure how craft branching works. I'm -aware- there are crafts I want access to because I'm super limited in some areas, but I have no idea if my PC is -learning- anything when they craft.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Mithrandur » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:29 pm

As someone who has played almost nothing but crafters exclusively for the last.. heck, 6 or 7 years or longer? This to me is actually a pretty nifty idea in that it would subvert a number of the breaks of immersion we accept because it's just how it's always been done.

A change like this means you no longer have to feel embarrassed that your 40 year old veteran who has been crafting his whole life doesn't know how to put a crappy sword together and can't for the life of him figure it out, while at the same time being supposedly highly-trained in the art of weapon making. Further those rough-and-tumble novices while they're able to see what they will be capable of in the future, would soon realize just how much they have to learn before they're actually competent in their field.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Tiamat » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:35 pm

WildGiller wrote:I'm not even sure how craft branching works. I'm -aware- there are crafts I want access to because I'm super limited in some areas, but I have no idea if my PC is -learning- anything when they craft.


Craft branching is pretty random as far as I know. I haven't looked deeply into that section of code, but I believe there were some skill checks involved on seeing if you could branch higher level skill crafts. AKA a Novice will never branch Master-level, but will probably branch Amateur-level.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Mithrandur » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:39 pm

Tiamat wrote:
WildGiller wrote:I'm not even sure how craft branching works. I'm -aware- there are crafts I want access to because I'm super limited in some areas, but I have no idea if my PC is -learning- anything when they craft.


Craft branching is pretty random as far as I know. I haven't looked deeply into that section of code, but I believe there were some skill checks involved on seeing if you could branch higher level skill crafts. AKA a Novice will never branch Master-level, but will probably branch Amateur-level.


If. -IF- I recall from the code as I was told, you can only branch a craft you have at least a 50/50 shot of passing. That however was the only stipulation as I recall. A novice craft with a skill check can definitely allow you to branch master crafts, but only if you actually have a chance of passing that master craft.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Icarus » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:55 pm

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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Throttle » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:58 pm

I think the idea has merit, but I would rather see it done so that you branch all the crafts for a skill level when you reach it, i.e. all the familiar crafts when you hit familiar etc.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Matt » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:57 pm

If it's just temporary I don't think it's a bad idea.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby MrDvAnt » Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:06 pm

Tiamat wrote:
WildGiller wrote:I'm not even sure how craft branching works. I'm -aware- there are crafts I want access to because I'm super limited in some areas, but I have no idea if my PC is -learning- anything when they craft.


Craft branching is pretty random as far as I know. I haven't looked deeply into that section of code, but I believe there were some skill checks involved on seeing if you could branch higher level skill crafts. AKA a Novice will never branch Master-level, but will probably branch Amateur-level.


I can tan and scud medium and large sized pelts but not brine them. Pretty frustrating.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Onasaki » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:32 pm

Actually crafting branching isn't super random, it's based on like, which tools you're using. And what you're making.

If you're disassembling weapons, you'll branch out into building weapons. And vice versa. If you're forging buckles, you'll branch into pieces of tools.

It's never 'random'. In that respect, the only thing that's random, is based on how often you branch.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Fatherandy » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:42 pm

It sounds like more things in those suites need to be made Opening crafts. You SHOULD be able to proceed through the whole basic process for a clan. For example - opening weaponcrafts should include the most basic hilt, the most basic knife blade, sharpening that blade, assembling that blade. The same should be true in tanning - if you can't finish a tanning process without brining, then it should be a starter craft.

As for no-patterns, my understanding was that patterns were not thematic for a mideval setting, and Nimrod posted about his fond memories of the joys of branching and wanting people to experience that thrill in our new game. :)
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Nailah » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:53 pm

Throttle wrote:I think the idea has merit, but I would rather see it done so that you branch all the crafts for a skill level when you reach it, i.e. all the familiar crafts when you hit familiar etc.


I'm pretty into this.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Tiamat » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:55 pm

Onasaki wrote:Actually crafting branching isn't super random, it's based on like, which tools you're using. And what you're making.

If you're disassembling weapons, you'll branch out into building weapons. And vice versa. If you're forging buckles, you'll branch into pieces of tools.

It's never 'random'. In that respect, the only thing that's random, is based on how often you branch.


The branching relies on some things, but it definitely does not rely on which tools you're using. And that's a given: you branch within the craft category that the craft is put in. That portion of the code (how often you branch), by the way, is not random. There is a branch timer that dictates how often you can branch a craft.

It sounds like more things in those suites need to be made Opening crafts. You SHOULD be able to proceed through the whole basic process for a clan. For example - opening weaponcrafts should include the most basic hilt, the most basic knife blade, sharpening that blade, assembling that blade. The same should be true in tanning - if you can't finish a tanning process without brining, then it should be a starter craft.

As for no-patterns, my understanding was that patterns were not thematic for a mideval setting, and Nimrod posted about his fond memories of the joys of branching and wanting people to experience that thrill in our new game.


I can agree that there needs to be more crafts made available at opening if players can't go through the entire process of creating a weapon or armor from the getgo, even if it's crap quality. Branching isn't really enjoyable in my eyes, as it's just RNG that determines what you'll get to be able to make next. Perhaps some one else that crafts frequently can give more opinions on that.

I think the idea has merit, but I would rather see it done so that you branch all the crafts for a skill level when you reach it, i.e. all the familiar crafts when you hit familiar etc.


Possible, if we had more coders. Nimrod, to my understanding, is swamped as it is. I am raising up a solution for ALPHA, at least, that doesn't require any coded work. I would love to see this in BETA or OPEN.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Kitzilla » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:58 pm

I am simply in love with Tiamat's amazing idea of opening up the skills for alpha, and here's why:

It's alpha. There are bugs. Crafting is buggy anyway. And I can't speak for everyone, but both of my starter crafts in my craft suite of choice have ended up eating some of my precious tools, and I've had to submit a ticket about both of them.

Since it's alpha, and we're supposed to be trying to break the game (or at least picking at any cracks), it would be useful to be able to test an entire crafting suite at once, and submit one ticket rather than one ticket every branch. (Side note: No, I don't mean we should spam-craft through an entire craft set at once for the sake of testing. As tempting as twinkery might be. I just mean, if one or two crafts eat my tools, I can test a couple of others and find out of the fault lies in the individual crafts or the whole shebang.)

Call it a perk of having to put up with the bumps in alpha that you get to start with a full suite. It can be temporary, just for alpha. For those characters that carry over into Beta or Open with a full gamut of crafts - well, for starters, congrats to them on surviving. Second, you still have to work at it enough to afford your materials. And these players can provide a base level of goods to stock the market while new players get acclimated and work their way up.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Songweaver » Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:25 am

If it takes me five hits of my weapon to knock out a browsing rabbit on my fighter, I say let the crafters suffer!

Just kidding. (but not really, wtf is up with those rabbit-tanks?)

Doing what Tiamat suggests would require a meticulous overhaul and manually adding in all of the appropriate crafts to every character already in the game, from admin-side. To be fair, it'd be a bit of a nightmare.

But, I do agree that I think folks aren't starting with enough (or the right) opening crafts, which bottlenecks their first week or two of craft branching (for which there are probably too many incidental and unimportant craft varieties). It's a lesson to learn now for any new craftsets or designs.

Lesson to be learned player-wise: if you're an armorcrafter or weaponcrafter, don't die. Seriously. Don't get yourself killed. Those first couple of weeks of branching yourselves into even the most meager level of usefulness is not something that you want to repeat.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Mithrandur » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:40 am

I will be brief.

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Re: Craft Branching

Postby BoogtehWoog » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:29 am

Songweaver wrote:

Lesson to be learned player-wise: if you're an armorcrafter or weaponcrafter, don't die. Seriously. Don't get yourself killed. Those first couple of weeks of branching yourselves into even the most meager level of usefulness is not something that you want to repeat.



*notes that killing rivals will dramatically increase own value* :twisted:
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby WildGiller » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:21 am

BoogtehWoog wrote:
Songweaver wrote:

Lesson to be learned player-wise: if you're an armorcrafter or weaponcrafter, don't die. Seriously. Don't get yourself killed. Those first couple of weeks of branching yourselves into even the most meager level of usefulness is not something that you want to repeat.



*notes that killing rivals will dramatically increase own value* :twisted:


Pfft What are we, orcs? :p
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby BoogtehWoog » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:25 am

I like to think of myself as enterprising. 8-)
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Tiamat » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:09 am

Actually it would not require manually adding every craft to players. If you set thr craft to opening for whatever skill, players will have the craft on relogging. But it does require setting all crafts to opening.
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Re: Craft Branching

Postby Icarus » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:22 am

I'll agree with this 50%.

/MOST/ low end crafts should be opening. That's most of the crafts IG atm.

Ordinary and above should not be opening.

Right now things are a bit borked. I'll be coordinating with folks to fix this.
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