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Suggestions for Archery Fixes

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Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby Songweaver » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:50 am

I know that the guncode remnants from Atonement are complicated and that this is ALPHA. I've tried to prioritize my list below to focus on what's likely the most simple of possible changes:

- "You hear a gunshot from the east." These echoes are pretty jarring, and would make it difficult to play an archer sharpshooter safely, since every time you fire anyone within a few rooms from you is going to hear it.

- "A jacketed rifle bullet". The names of the ammo are, of course, still bullet names.

- Stop, drop, and cover your ears. While I don't really have a problem with trauma gained from being shot by an arrow, I don't think other people getting shot in the same room as you should force you to drop automatically, and I don't think being missed by a shot should ever have a chance to cause trauma. It's too much.

- Damage reduction. Arrows are, comparably, too strong versus armor. One easy way to help this would be to increase the base resistance of all armor types versus arrows in the new armor table. More complex solutions might involve setting a "bleed cap" to ensure that blood loss isn't going to be insane and/or removing exit wounds. I'd also consider making sure that "hollow point bullet" arrows and some of the more powerful ammo types are not included.

- Weird bugs. I've seen arrows retrieved from corpses that turned into entirely different arrows. I've seen an arrow's ammo type go from normal to "hollow point" (significantly more powerful) when retrieved.

IMO, the basic systems of archery are really simple. You could create an entire scripted archery system that works pretty much identically to the old SOI system, including skill/checks and gains, without too much effort (or requiring much complexity in terms of the scripting code). If at any point, the frustration of trying to shoe-horn guncode into archery becomes too much, this is something that I would be happy to prototype for you.
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby Onasaki » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:28 pm

I second this.
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby krelm » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:43 pm

Songweaver wrote:- "You hear a gunshot from the east."


This was actually a building error, and should have been fixed. There was a big announcement a few days ago asking people who had bows that made gunshots to exchange them for bows that didn't. It looks like some people missed said announcement.

Songweaver wrote:- Stop, drop, and cover your ears.


I thought about bringing this up as well, but then I thought about it-- I'd imagine getting shot at with an error in ye olden times was just as terrifying as getting shot at with a gun today. I mean it may or may not be more deadly (having never gotten shot with either and being too lazy to do the research, I wouldn't know) but at the end of the day it's still a life-threatening projectile being lobbed at your meaty body at high velocities.

Songweaver wrote:- Damage reduction. Arrows are, comparably, too strong versus armor.


Correct me if I'm wrong (I probably am), but wasn't the entire reason platemail went out of style because crossbows go to the point where they could punch through it like paper? According to the armor tables, unless you're using armor piercing arrows shooting at someone is basically worthless in upper tiered armor, anyway. Of course, we don't have that armor now, but if we nerfed bow damage to the armor we have, then it'd make the armor we'll get that much more OP.

Songweaver wrote:- Weird bugs. I've seen arrows retrieved from corpses that turned into entirely different arrows. I've seen an arrow's ammo type go from normal to "hollow point" (significantly more powerful) when retrieved.


This was a bug back in Atonement BETA, and it seems to have stuck around. Whenever an object gets "lodged" into something, what the code is doing is purging that object entirely and just adding a description. When you "remove" the item, the engine loads a fresh object right into your hand. It can't copy the variables from the description to the actual object, so you just get a randomly-variabled object. This is why lodging was removed on throwing, because people kept getting their alion daggers stuck in rats in BETA, then getting back titon daggers.

Anything else I didn't hit on I probably agreed with.
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby Erythil » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:32 pm

There's actually a fair degree of debate about the strength of historical armor against arrows. A lot depends on the specific armor and arrow type.

Crossbows were also much, much stronger than the kinds of hunting bows and shortbows likely to be used by many of our characters. The crossbow had enough comparative force that the Vatican tried to outlaw its use outside of Crusades against non-Christians. Obviously, they did not succeed.

Longbows and crossbows could puncture any armor but full steel plate, which would provide significant protection against both, especially longbows. Even then, the important factors of strength, angle, range, and arrow length/arrowhead type all made for a complicated picture.

The sort of plate armor used in the very late medieval period and early renaissance would deflect almost all arrows, even the earliest bullets, at sufficient range. There was a very very brief period in the fifteenth century when a sufficiently armored warrior could be almost invincible to ranged weaponry.

There's articles on wikipedia somewhere about modern tests with historical equipment that can back up these details, if I recall correctly. I'm not an expert.

TL;DR I take Songweaver's side about arrows being too strong.
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby Letters » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:47 pm

krelm wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong (I probably am), but wasn't the entire reason platemail went out of style because crossbows go to the point where they could punch through it like paper? According to the armor tables, unless you're using armor piercing arrows shooting at someone is basically worthless in upper tiered armor, anyway. Of course, we don't have that armor now, but if we nerfed bow damage to the armor we have, then it'd make the armor we'll get that much more OP.


Firearms caused the gradual removal of full body armour from warfare, not crossbows. Crossbows actually just spurred on its development.

SoI has never made much distinction between different bows. It uses 'shortbow' and 'longbow', terms derived from fantasy games rather than history.

A short bow represents the typical hunting bow - perhaps something that a peasant might use. They've also typically represented compound bows, as far as the code's concerned, and various other fancy sorts. There's a historical accounting from one of Saladin's generals regarding an ongoing assault on a Crusader column on the road to Jaffa. Saracen horsemen, armed with bows, were harassing them incessantly, and doing precious little damage. He attested that one Crusader foot soldier must have had at least ten arrows sticking out of his gambeson, and he was still walking.

The long bow in game is derived from the English/Welsh war bow. There was a unique culture there - many young men trained as archers from their youth. It's tremendously difficult to draw a heavy bow - and the draw weight on some of these weapons was 100lbs or more. These men could not only draw that, but could do it ten times in a minute, and keep doing that for a few dozen arrows. A number of corpses have been identified as British archers - all with their left arms and shoulders seriously deformed looking. Nowhere else in the world had that culture, and only a scattered few huntsmen might be able to use such a bow effectively. Accounts from the Hundred Years War nevertheless indicate, especially later on, that these bows had serious trouble penetrating French armour. They did, however, kill horses, and exhaust French soldiers, who had to keep their visors down, and were being pelted time and time again, even if they weren't wounded seriously.

The crossbow is, of course, the crossbow. Came to prominence in the early medieval period. They vary drastically in design and power. Some, especial the heavier ones would require special loading mechanisms. Took a while to load, too. Due to the inability to just remove the string as with a regular bow, they were quite susceptible to poor weather. They could be tremendously powerful, sure, but there must have been some sound reasons that even early firearms supplanted them so quickly, and that armour continued to evolve through the life of the crossbow, rather than armies resorting to pike and crossbow tactics as they later did pike and shot (though there was probably a strong social element to the evolution of military tactics, too).


Got ninja'd a bit there. There you go anyway.
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby Erythil » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:49 pm

Sorry for the ninja, but I think you provided a lot of useful detail on points I didn't cover!
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby krelm » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:57 pm

Well, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby WorkerDrone » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:13 pm

You know deja vu here, but I'm 90% sure that Letters has had this exact same discussion at one point on the old SoI boards, regarding crossbows/decline of plate etc. Vivid, isn't it?
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby Letters » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:32 am

WorkerDrone wrote:You know deja vu here, but I'm 90% sure that Letters has had this exact same discussion at one point on the old SoI boards, regarding crossbows/decline of plate etc. Vivid, isn't it?


Probably? I write a lot sometimes.

For anyone inclined to do more reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arsuf is the incident referred to in my post just there, with reference to Crusaders being shot multiple times. That was still 1191 - they were clad in mail and cloth.
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby hobbitboots » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:50 am

If we're talking realism, the main difference between a bow and a crossbow is not their armor piercing ability or their range. There are all kinds of bows and crossbows that fare better or worse for those tasks.

Besides the fact that an bow archer can reload faster, the main difference is that it's a lot easier to learn how to shoot a crossbow! Just read any online article about bow hunters trying to keep crossbow hunters out of archery hunting season, and you'll see complaints about fairness and keeping archery pure. On the other side, you'll read people argue that crossbows are good for hunting because they let people who don't have much time to practice their shooting still be able to pass the proficiency exam.

If we wanted to be realistic, we wouldn't have crossbows for short range (an arbalest can shoot plenty far), shortbows for medium range, and longbows for long range. We'd just have bows and crossbows, and the range/stopping power would be determined by the weapon's design and type of ammunition being used.

So, as cool as the history is, it's a red herring. Let's just recognize what we're doing for what it really is: we want these three types of missile weapons because we want variety in the game, and there needs to be an incentive for using each so that they all get used. They also need to be balanced (in some sense) against melee combat so that mixed unit tactics are viable.
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby MrDvAnt » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:55 am

I'm pretty sure crossbows are for ruggedly handsome rednecks to kill squirrels and zombies.
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby WildGiller » Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:30 pm

MrDvAnt wrote:I'm pretty sure crossbows are for ruggedly handsome rednecks to kill squirrels and zombies.

They also shoot beer cans!
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby Bogre » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:21 pm

I think codedly, at least to bring it back in similarity to SoI, the bleeding from arrow/bolt wounds should be highly reduced. In SoI, if any of you remember, you'd most often get grazed or stuck with an arrow, rather than having horrifically hemorrhaging wounds.
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby MrDvAnt » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:51 pm

Bogre wrote:I think codedly, at least to bring it back in similarity to SoI, the bleeding from arrow/bolt wounds should be highly reduced. In SoI, if any of you remember, you'd most often get grazed or stuck with an arrow, rather than having horrifically hemorrhaging wounds.


I wouldn't mind that. Arrow wounds don't really bleed much until you pull the arrow out. I know this firsthand unfortunately, having grown up in the country with male relatives.
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby RiderOnTheStorm » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:08 pm

What exactly are people basing these suggestions off of?

How many PCs have been shot with arrows in the <2 weeks the game has been open?
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby RiderOnTheStorm » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:36 pm

Does your combat 'mode' affect archery at all? IE should you be 'set aggressive' when shooting, or does it not matter?
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby Songweaver » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:57 pm

Combat stance doesn't matter towards archery at all.

Also doesn't matter that only a few PCs have been shot. The bleeding is too high, period, beyond the other weird bugs. If it's not been an obvious problem human-side yet (probably has been on the orc side, moreso), it will be as soon as PVP becomes more regular.
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby Matt » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:10 pm

I PK'd some guy with my orc with arrows and I killed the living hell out of him with a few arrows.
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby tehkory » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:00 pm

RiderOnTheStorm wrote:What exactly are people basing these suggestions off of?

How many PCs have been shot with arrows in the <2 weeks the game has been open?


Icarus wrote:Arrows are bullets and your bows are rifles.

I saw someone take a point blank arrow to the head today.

He actually only got dropped about 30 points.


Because I spent 160 days on one PC in Atonement. I don't even want to add all my other PCS/Parallel, too. We know this code.
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby Songweaver » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:42 am

I owned/ran Atonement, the engine SOI's based off of. I know the code very well. My suggestions aren't idle, I promise you.
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Re: Suggestions for Archery Fixes

Postby Erythil » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:40 pm

I think the bleeding on bowshot should be generally toned down on PCs. Intense bleeding should probably only happen when the arrow is removed. And bandaging someone with an arrow still suck in them doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
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