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sharpen wicked-blade

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sharpen wicked-blade

Postby tehkory » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:15 pm

So, I was thinking about this at work. Humans get lovely honed/sharpened weapons, and that's great.

But wouldn't it be kinda awesome if orcs got the same crafts, but orcified?

And no, I don't mean orcified like CHOP CHOP WARBOSS orcified. I mean...what if instead of sharpened, it was made jagged? What if instead of honed, it was pissed on, made jagged, and covered with foul poisons? Cosmetically, a major difference, even if the weapons deal the same damage?

And yes, I'm suggesting a minor change to weaponcrafting. This is Tiamat's literal hell. Sorry.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Tiamat » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:33 pm

I'll think about it. :P
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Patty » Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:08 pm

I like the idea.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Onasaki » Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:32 pm

I like every single damned orcish weaponcraft idea. We need more orcish crafts. I might end up locking Tiamat in a basement until she makes some. :P
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby AdamBlue » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:45 pm

Really, I think orcs need really scary-looking, badass weapons. After all, we're the 'VADOK USHTARAK'. The -DEATH ARMY-. We need to have as many spikes and blood-gutters and wicked nasty blades sharp enough to cut through tark flesh as we can.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Dirgs » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:17 pm

Maybe give the orcs a different set of 'forge x-component' crafts? Everything would be the same, just the blade description would be different. Ie scimitar instead of longsword - much more canon!
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby cfelch » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:53 pm

Honestly, I would love to see the crafts be the same for everyone, regardless of sphere.

Now, having the craft take your racial/cultural differences into account, and change the finished product accordingly....

That would be sweet, but likely hell to code.

Just because human's aren't fond of maggots as a food source doesn't mean they lack the skill to pluck them from a rotting carcass.

Some of the crafts seem divided in an arbitrary, 'oh, you wouldn't -want- to do that' type manor.
Let us decide what we want our character to do.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Hawkwind » Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:33 pm

cfelch wrote:Honestly, I would love to see the crafts be the same for everyone, regardless of sphere.

Now, having the craft take your racial/cultural differences into account, and change the finished product accordingly....

That would be sweet, but likely hell to code.

Just because human's aren't fond of maggots as a food source doesn't mean they lack the skill to pluck them from a rotting carcass.

Some of the crafts seem divided in an arbitrary, 'oh, you wouldn't -want- to do that' type manor.
Let us decide what we want our character to do.


The trouble with that thinking is there are zero drawbacks IG for doing such. A good example would be the warg armor and meat Utterby was once fond of.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby cfelch » Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:07 pm

If the town has a plethora of a given type of hide, i see no issue with it being used for hide armour... thats standard economics there.

The only real issue I see is the fact that it detracts from the vision of staff. Not a bad reason, just saying its likely the main reason.

But if that is the case, the real issue is why is our market flooded with warg hides? If the powers that be don't want that to be a valid resource for us, perhaps they should dial back the numbers.

This is a rugged wilderness colony, not a fashion center.

Another issue is the fact that the leather is so obviously warg.
I would think, (this is just me now) that unless you were a tanner yourself, or a fashion guru, the odds of you being able to identify the animal a given strip of tanned leather is from is rather minute.

And other than the bad taste or poor nutrition content of the meat, exactly what drawbacks should be there?
I could see the hides and the resultant items from it being slightly heavier than normal to account for the durability of wargs... but that would also carry over into said armor being slightly more effective, so calling it a drawback would be a lie.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Onasaki » Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:26 pm

Hey guys, I thought this was about orcish weapons, and the lack of differentiating the fact that we have the same kind of weapons as those filthy tarks.

Not to discuss the economics of whether or not a market should be filled with Warg Leather or not. I understand that, yes, certain leathers should probably be more rarer then others, but this isn't the place to discuss it.

I don't personally see a need for more drawbacks in crafting then there already are. It requires so much to make a fancy murder-sword, and kills craft timers fast.

I want ,however, larger number of different types of weapons. I'm sick of seeing longsword, shortsword, dagger, longknife.

I want serrated blade, curved shortsword, thin dagger, jagged longknife.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby cfelch » Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:50 pm

That's why i was suggesting a cultural bias in crafting.

set culture <type>

Something like that would allow you to toggle between the various output forms.

So we can get more adjective options than just the raw materials used.
Noun options would be great as well.

----

How about, and i hesitate only for a moment here...
How about if we allow artistry to open up a list of adjectives to be added after the fact.
Or, and i think this option is better, and easier to implement, if more open to abuse...
Or, just let players redefine the descriptions for items they have made.
Such changes would of course be logged, so staff could track down those abusers.

Give the players a little control... and trust.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Hawkwind » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:16 am

cfelch wrote:If the town has a plethora of a given type of hide, i see no issue with it being used for hide armour... thats standard economics there.

The only real issue I see is the fact that it detracts from the vision of staff. Not a bad reason, just saying its likely the main reason.

But if that is the case, the real issue is why is our market flooded with warg hides? If the powers that be don't want that to be a valid resource for us, perhaps they should dial back the numbers.

This is a rugged wilderness colony, not a fashion center.

Another issue is the fact that the leather is so obviously warg.
I would think, (this is just me now) that unless you were a tanner yourself, or a fashion guru, the odds of you being able to identify the animal a given strip of tanned leather is from is rather minute.

And other than the bad taste or poor nutrition content of the meat, exactly what drawbacks should be there?


I am searching for the actual text, but I recall a line in one of the books about not even carrion animals would eat Warg flesh, implying it is akin to Orc and Goblin. What does that tell you about the good peoples of Middle-Earth using the beasts for armor and sustenance? Can we at least try to be Tolkien themed?
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby cfelch » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:30 am

If the resources aren't to be used, then don't let them be gathered in the first place.

If it exists, people will find a use for it.

And if its a matter of survival (which it likely was) then even shoe leather will be eaten.

I do understand the complaint, but what are we supposed to do with the stuff that people gather anyway just to rep the skill?
Non-canonical as it may be, opting out of a chance to rep your skill is counter intuitive to gameplay when said options tend to be slim to start with.
Is gameplay not a valid concern?
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Hawkwind » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:35 am

This is a roleplay mandatory game, there is more to than skill gains. The aim is roleplay, to engage with each other, to create stories, tales, memories and celebrate the Tolkien legend. It is not to go out, kill, craft, rinse and repeat. Though I have taken this off topic.

Wicked-blades yes! Keep them Orcish though.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby cfelch » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:57 am

That fact that this is an RPI is rather beside the point.
A person can RP and still care about skills.
These ideals don't have to be mutually exclusive.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Patty » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:37 am

A person CAN. It seems like most of the time they don't.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Onasaki » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:20 am

If this thread doesn't stay on topic, I'm going to take further steps to get it locked. If you're that worried about your skill-increases, and whether or not I'd eat warg at thanksgiving, please take it elsewhere.

You have been warned.

We are here to discuss cultural weapon styles, and the lack of. Not the economics, skills, or how edible a talking dog is.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby AdamBlue » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:42 am

honestly, weapontypes that did different levels of damage would also be neat. a characteristic of orcish weapons would be that they tore through bare flesh and light armor (e.g animal hide and leather) with horrifying strength, but were less effective against heavier armors?
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Brian » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:20 am

AdamBlue wrote:honestly, weapontypes that did different levels of damage would also be neat. a characteristic of orcish weapons would be that they tore through bare flesh and light armor (e.g animal hide and leather) with horrifying strength, but were less effective against heavier armors?


In a way this is already implemented as different attack types (slash/pierce/blunt etc.) already have different effectiveness against different armor types. I believe that depending on the type of weapon you make (Ie, making a broad bladed sword or a thin bladed sword) the damage type that the finished product makes will be different. This means you do in fact do different amounts of damage to different armor types, depending on your weapon.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Frigga » Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:58 pm

Just to clarify a few points brought up here:

- Tiamat is no longer on staff, so - locking her anywhere won't help. ;)

- I'm not going to further detail the topic by getting into a point for point on warg meat and warg leather. Yes staff (I'll take full credit for this one, so you can put my name to it) have decided that our vision for Rhovanion culture does not include consuming or utilizing warg meat or leather.

That's one of those lines in the sand about interpretation and preservation of canon I'm not really willing to waver on.

If the resources aren't to be used, then don't let them be gathered in the first place.


If the fact that they exist for people is too much of a temptation, that's a remedy I'm rather happy to impose. ;)

But as noted, that's a discussion for a different thread, and more likely, not a thread that's about orc concerns on the orc board.

- I want ,however, larger number of different types of weapons. I'm sick of seeing longsword, shortsword, dagger, longknife.

I want serrated blade, curved shortsword, thin dagger, jagged longknife.


I actually agree here. Some of this is possible with variable set up now, but the variables on weapons are haphazard and a bit over the top.

Eventually, I'm likely to desire that we trade large variances in weapon type (like longsword and shortsword) from being variable to being different items which will open up more variance in things like blade style, etc. And begin to move some variables (like color of grip) into the zone of Artistry wherein materials can be utilized and junked by appropriated skilled folks to change a description to include those things without the complication of including them in code, etc. However, that's a very major over-haul when other projects are on the slate.

Perhaps some smaller peeks at this could review ways on how to create some more variance in weapon appearance could be poked at. Or a few orc specific weapon crafts.

Scimitars and/or some sort of cleaver comes to mind. :twisted:

Or, just let players redefine the descriptions for items they have made.


This is possible now, if your PC has the Artistry skill. However, there's a line between making something look pretty, and utilizing the description to imply that it's a master sword capable of causing epic bleeders. The second thing really requires code support otherwise, it's a bit of a false advertisement. Hence the need for that to go through a craft.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Brian » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:42 pm

Interesting thoughts on the weapon design Frigga; I'll just chime in with what I saw in Atonement. Over there I think there was maybe only one type of longsword object, but the variables for the blade would be things like, thin, broad, curved, jagged, that kind of thing. The different variables would give the finished product different properties; the thin ones would do piercing damage for instance, and likely many more bits of code stuff that I'm not privy to. Looking at those might help with altering the weapons as they stand now.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Onasaki » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:52 pm

Brian wrote:Interesting thoughts on the weapon design Frigga; I'll just chime in with what I saw in Atonement. Over there I think there was maybe only one type of longsword object, but the variables for the blade would be things like, thin, broad, curved, jagged, that kind of thing. The different variables would give the finished product different properties; the thin ones would do piercing damage for instance, and likely many more bits of code stuff that I'm not privy to. Looking at those might help with altering the weapons as they stand now.


I concur. We had a good deal of variation on Atonement, it was all removed from play when the weapon-crafting was changed.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby cfelch » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:28 pm

Frigga wrote:
Or, just let players redefine the descriptions for items they have made.


This is possible now, if your PC has the Artistry skill. However, there's a line between making something look pretty, and utilizing the description to imply that it's a master sword capable of causing epic bleeders. The second thing really requires code support otherwise, it's a bit of a false advertisement. Hence the need for that to go through a craft.


I thought that only added a line to the ldesc of an item, sort of like a dmote.
I want to change the sdesc.
I assume that's what others want as well.
That's where all the nifty adjectives come into play.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Onasaki » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:42 pm

cfelch wrote:
Frigga wrote:
Or, just let players redefine the descriptions for items they have made.


This is possible now, if your PC has the Artistry skill. However, there's a line between making something look pretty, and utilizing the description to imply that it's a master sword capable of causing epic bleeders. The second thing really requires code support otherwise, it's a bit of a false advertisement. Hence the need for that to go through a craft.


I thought that only added a line to the ldesc of an item, sort of like a dmote.
I want to change the sdesc.
I assume that's what others want as well.
That's where all the nifty adjectives come into play.


This is correct. Artistry only adds one line, of about 250 letters to the end of the weapon/item you're decorating. If you include "short" into the syntax, it adds a nifty "engraved, painted, etched, etc." adjective to the sdesc.

Artistry is extremely limited.

And me, personally, I don't care for any sort of custom. I LITERALLY am quite pissed that orcish weapons weren't considered when the new weapon code went in.

Infact, every single weapon craft, is the exact same thing.

There's no difference, aside from the weapon it produces, and some minor changes in words. This, particularly, seems extremely lazy to me, (That is to no offense to Tiamat, I know how much she loved making weapon crafts, but the point still stands).

I liked how weapons were before. I liked being able to sit there and assemble, and disassemble. I liked the variation of hilts, pommels, and other such things. All that needed to be done, was to change the consistancy of how things branched, and to lock out certain level tiers, and balance some level of the damage, and damage-rating.

I'm going on a big long rant here, because I SERIOUSLY DESPISE how unimaginative the weaponcrafting is now. I don't feel like an awesome well-renown smith, just because I can put a sharp edge on some rudimentary blade that looks the same as every other blade, aside from the fact that this one, perhaps has a red hilt. While that other one I made a week ago, had a green hilt.

That one too, also has a neat little engraving of a flourishing vine. While this one, has a picture of a chicken standing on it's head.

It's disgusting. It's boring. It's lazy. It's pointless. It makes me want to scream, and pull my hair out, and kick the person who decided that was a good thing. (Again, I feel the need to state, that I, in no way shape or form, have any ill-will towards any of the admins)

I am a goddamned master weapon smith. I shouldn't be making the same damned thing as everyone else. No one should. Each weapon, each blade, each hammer, axe, mace, or dagger, should be in it's way, unique to the crafter who made it, outside a mark, or two.

I should be able to put a jagged edge on one. A thin edge on the other. Have a basket pommel on this one. A curved one on that one. I should have a spiked mace, or a blunt mace.

A hammer-axe, or a double-headed axe.

A spear with a thin tip. Or a spear with three thin tips.

I don't care about stats. I never care about stats. I'm not a twink. I don't care about combat. I've never cared about combat, except when I do. This discussion, these weapons, they should be about making them BETTER. Not talking about what exists already. Not giving a half-assed "Oh weapons are already variant in the types of damage!" I DON'T CARE.

This game is RPI. That means, Roleplay Intensive. It should be up to the players what kind of weapon their character should have, be it a trident, or a butcher knife. Stats should only matter when it involves PVP, which, in hindsight, should be a semi-rare occasion. It should not be "Hey guys, lets go hunt orcs in the woods!" Then twink-spam kill orc. It should be patient, it should involve some level of RP, even if it's only acknowledging that we're actually people, and not mobs.

But I'm getting off topic with that tiny bit. So back to weapons, weapons should be MORE varient then just damage types, how much damage they do to certain armor. And whether or not they give a deflect bonus.

They should specifically made to hinder, increase, adjust, or remove certain aspects in favor of combat maneuvering.

Orc 1 is a big giant hulk. He's in the front, tanking, he's fighting a dude with plate. He needs a heavy axe to cut through metal, that while slow, still does a good deal of damage. It has a jagged edge, which aids in shredding. Which increases chance of bleeding, or armor damage.

Orc 2 is a skeevy little thing, he jumps in while the tank is focused. He uses two weapons, a sword, and a dagger. The sword is meant for parrying blows, it has a basket hilt to increase the chance of deflecting blows, while the blade is wide, meant for catching a blade, while the dagger, as tiny and quick as it is has a long thin blade, meant for stabbing. Any attacks that come his way, can be easily parried, while he uses quick stabs to try and reduce the stamina, or health of the human.

Orc 3 is a medium built thing, has two maces. One that's spiked to allow for shredding leather armor. While the other is blunt, in order to subdue. This guy is the slavemaster, he's the guy who wants to knock out the humans and take them in as slaves for the army. He wants to be careful, not to kill them, so he has a blunt weapon to knock them out. While the spiked one weakens, and shreds.

--

You see what I'm getting at? Of course, this would probably require a full overhaul of combat in general, but that's the kind of thing I want to see. I don't want to see five random orcs with maces, just because maces do good damage against leather, or whatever the crap it is, and they have the starting level of bludgeon and sole-wield.

I want those orcs to be diverse. I want them to pick weapons that fit the character on a conceptual level. Not because this honed iron longsword master-craft quality murder-kills things.

That's what I think we're trying to get across here, that's what I think we need to change about weapons.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby ironhelix » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:50 pm

Onasaki wrote:Stuff.


I think that players come in all different types. Currently, I play a character that uses a suboptimal weapon because that's the character - I notice several others do as well. Others play with the 'murder-death-kill' weapons - that's their choice, and it may well be a roleplaying one, rather than a stat-based one. In general, though, players will either use weapons that suit their character or they won't - offering more choices of weapons simply offers more choices, but doesn't change player behavior.

As far as keywords, I'm honestly not sure how this is a problem. The game already seems to take into account the items used in construction of a more complicated item. The answer is likely not more weapon crafts, but more varied weapon components.

Those components, when assembled, would simply transfer one of their adjectives to the newly constructed item.

So, for instance, if you constructed a longsword out of:

A jagged-edged longsword blade
A crude-iron basket hilt

The following longsword might be:

A jagged-edged longsword with a crude basket hilt

This is similar (at least in theory) to how leather color affects the adjectives of stuff made from that square of leather. I'm pretty sure if that's do-able for that craft, the others can likely be made to do the same.

However, that's a cosmetic improvement, and not a stat-based one - is that what you're asking for, or are you also asking for the stats for the item in question to be adjusted based on the component inputs? This is one of the points I wasn't sure on - on the one hand you mention you don't care about stats, but in the next sentence mention you want to make the weapons better. Can you talk more about what better means in this instance?

As far as crafting things that actually make you feel like you are this awesome smith: that should be do-able with having more advanced crafts that require a higher level of skill - that's probably an issue related to the game's current alpha state.

Having said all that - my own thoughts are below:

  • More variation in item design (going beyond weapons) is needed.
  • More control over design and final outcome is needed.
  • In general, complex (multi-component) crafting should take into account more of the base component descriptions, and some descriptions should be race-specific (no humans making jagged-edged blades, for instance, while orcs probably won't have fine shiny blades).

To accomplish this:

  • Crafting trees can split along component lines. Orcs craft certain components, humans craft others.
  • Common pool crafts actually focus on what I'll call 'finished' item construction; e.g. a longsword, a mace, an axe, etc.
  • Item changes are cosmetic and roleplay in nature at this time, though stat boosts could be added during balancing.
  • If added, stat boosts could also be based on the components used to create the weapon.
  • Component level significantly contributes to item quality level; if no component is rated less than 'orcishly orcish' then the item produced will be constructed no less than 'orcishly orcish' quality.
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