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Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:13 pm
by radioactivejesus
Justanothacivy wrote:This thread is embarrasing.

Dude made a character. Trolled around and got killed. Then bitched about getting killed. The head Admin gets angry bitch letter and freaks out.

Lets stop acting like we are untouchable people. Consequences. Think. Stop acting surprised when bad things happen after you do something drastic.
regardless of who's in the right or wrong, you should try and put your posts in a less hostile tone.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:25 pm
by Justanothacivy
I have to disagree Brian. If he was playing a character who mouthed off. Got into an argument, then a fight... what was the other characters supposed to do if he did not even respond to code? Admit defeat. If you were beaten, badly, would you look up at your attacker and goad them or beg for mercy?

I'll admit its hard to enforce the orc sphere from the player side of things. I mean we have the pit but you have to knock somone out just to drag them down there which is a risky thing to try and pull off if you want your suspect to stay alive.


Im in the belief the orc sphere should stay small, it has never boasted huge numbers because it is a very specific sphere and that keeps it interesting dangit.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:33 am
by Brian
Justanothacivy wrote:
Im in the belief the orc sphere should stay small, it has never boasted huge numbers because it is a very specific sphere and that keeps it interesting dangit.
And if that's what the folks that play orcs want, it is a legitimate choice so long as it's clear to people who are interested that this is the way it's going to be, so be ready to deal with it or you're likely in for a rude awakening. It would make the orc sphere more of a niche sphere (which I suppose you could say it always has been) but perhaps that's the way it should be presented? I'm getting the impression that the majority of current orc players think that it's pretty much the way it should be, and they're the ones who drive and steer the sphere.

It looks like there may be a disconnect however between what the players think it should be and what the staff think it should be given that this whole thread started with a scathing appraisal of what sounds like similar types of behaviour from the chief admin. There might need to be some dialogue between the orc players and staff to clarify what they're trying to build, respectively.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:03 am
by Hawkwind
The thing is, in situations like this there seems to be a rather limited number of viable and orcish this can play out. It is no stretch of the truth that if one rogue player is intent on bucking the system without the experience or skills to back it up, others will follow.

Does the leader risk loosing face, respect and authority because a newer player wants to be 'prideful' and utterly refused to roleplay anything nearing a viable and realistic concept? In the end, unrealistic depictions of characters, ones that utterly ignore any reactions to their actions burn out other players who earnestly try to better their sphere.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:30 am
by Seiryoku
I would think it's a learning experience. But that might be a hard pill to swallow if you're too invested into the whole thing to dissociate the IC from the OOC experience. Hopefully, once things have calmed down, Siradril can sift through the ordeal to earn some valuable knowledge. He's a good, dependable player (in my experience) and don't like to see him walk away from this with nothing but the thought that 'oh man these guys are awful'.

'cuz, y'know, playing opposite the arrogant guy is reaaaaaaally tough. If you push him too hard, and he doesn't adapt his play style to match the context, you need to go somewhere coded to assert your authority (and personally, I think it sucks doing that. Nobody walks away any happier or better from the experience). Came to this only once during my clan lead times and it was absolutely shitty: guy took it like an OOC witch-hunt, petitioned admin, admin had to look into it, and I apparently was responsible for souring said guy's day (character too, perhaps. Never saw him again). Made me feel awful.

But damnit, the arrogant guy won't stand down. And ICly, you look like an ass if you just let him get away with stuff because you're afraid of hurting him OOCly. Ultimately, for me, since I'm a simulationist, IC consistency must prevail.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:16 am
by Hawkwind
Having played the arrogant, preening tosser PC a few times, part of the trade is routinely getting your head shoved up your ass and working on its removal, Seir.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:46 am
by Onasaki
[Edit out curses. You've been warned, Onasaki. Don't do it again. -Nim]

The basic theme of this thread is that Orcs need to be nicer. So lets just remove orcs entirely, and make it an all-human, hobbit, elf, and dwarf MUD.

Lets throw in a couple of dragons, some randomly generated dungeons, and a few more magical items.

While we're at it, lets cut out every direct reference to Tolkein, add some scattered inns, and a few more towns.

Change the name to Shadows of the Eye: The Dungeoneer.

--

In all seriousness, the thing is, people complain too much, because they can get away with it, because the game is still being refined and adjusted. You got half of us, who remember the old days of SOI where Orcs and stuff were solidified in their traditions, and getting the hell beaten out of them. Then you got the other half, the people who have either never played SOI, never played an Orc, or never played Mordor side, showing up, trying to try something different.Then not liking it because it's not nice.

News flash, Orcs are not nice. They'll never be nice. We're not the huggable, adorable, snuggly Orcs that don't exist ever. We're gritty, egotistical, prideful, hated, and all over savage.

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. This is why the Orc sphere suffers, because people want to come in and pretend they're automatically going to be badasses.

I said this in my previous post. It has nothing to do with how we treat the newbies, it has nothing to do with why we treat the newbies the way we do, it's because the newbies come in and expect to be handed refined iron weapons, oiled leather, and permission to Onasaki up anything that moves, upon commencement.

They don't want to sit there, and earn their place, they want to automatically have the place. Which is why they get bored, and end up retiring.

Because, as I said, in my previous post, we need MORE ORC THINGS TO DO.

We are not a niche sphere. We are not a minority role. We are the CONFLICT that EXISTS to FIGHT the HUMANS. That is literally our lot in life, to KILL ALL HUMANS AND EVERYTHING WEAKER THEN US.

Without the Orcs being as orcy as we are, we are just another Medieval Fantasy MUD that happens to follow Tolkein mythos.

At this point, I don't even feel like playing anymore, myself. Because we can't do jack Onasakieing Onasaki, without some newbie whining about it, or the admins saying that we can't have that due to the legal crap that's been the basis of all "we can't do that" excuses.

So what, now Orcs have to be Onasakiing G-Rated? COME ON.

Let me break it down:

We started off good, then the rule came in from Striza that we can't kill other PCs. This got people mad.

Then we were told we can't use 'slit' as a derogatory term for 'sow'. And almost got asked to stop using 'snaga' 'skai' 'sha'.

Then we had our human-cooking crafts removed.

Then we had our Orc-Themed Weaponry Removed.

We never had access to our Orc-Themed Armor.

Then the Axes split off, and the Admins tried to /keep/ that conflict going.

We never got to raid a caravan, instead we got a random shopkeep in the kitchen that sat there for months after most of the things it sold were gone. And haven't gotten another one since. (And it's been like, 3 IC years.)

We still don't have store access, in the bar.

We still have no access to that random locked room in the Forge.

We never got NPC wargs, but now we have PC wargs, that's already being considered for removal. (Yes, I've heard this rumor, and I'm not even sure anymore what's going on with it)

Humans are allowed to have OP equipment for their elf PCs.

Humans accidentally got access to higher quality materials then us, then was silently removed.

We're not getting platemail.

We haven't heard anything from the other 'orc tribes' that are supposed to exist, Dul Guldor, Yellow-Eyes, Etc. I'm not even sure if they're even considered a thing anymore.

We had our Orc-Weapons Removed.

We had our Orc-Weapons Removed.

We had our Orc-Weapons Removed.

And now we have to be nice to trolling newbies who think they're tough shit immediately from commencement?

Why do we even have Orcs? What's the point of them being playable, if we're just going to get ignored, yelled at, or otherwise screwed over at EVERY SINGLE CORNER?

And yes, I'm aware of the stuff in progress, but it's too little to late. Considering a total of 3 or 4 orcs even bothered to logon the last time we had something to do.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:06 am
by Frigga
Sorry if things are too little too late, it is obviously far from ideal. However, I think honestly, despite what is seemingly believed we are looking to create a more rewarding Orc experience.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:27 am
by Patty
Seiryoku wrote:Ultimately, for me, since I'm a simulationist, IC consistency must prevail.
I think it did.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:27 pm
by Brian
So, to sum that Onasaki, it's a case of "if you don't like how we do, don't play with us and go back to the human sphere?" If that's the case I think it just needs to be shared clearly for anyone when they're rolling an orc in chargen so they know what they're getting into and what's in store for them so that they aren't rudely awakened. If that's the consensus between those who primarily play orcs and the admin I say add a big disclaimer in charge so that it's specific on what's in store for orc players.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:32 pm
by Icarus
Probably not a bad idea. Can add it to the racial blurb.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:41 pm
by Onasaki
Brian wrote:So, to sum that Onasaki, it's a case of "if you don't like how we do, don't play with us and go back to the human sphere?" If that's the case I think it just needs to be shared clearly for anyone when they're rolling an orc in chargen so they know what they're getting into and what's in store for them so that they aren't rudely awakened. If that's the consensus between those who primarily play orcs and the admin I say add a big disclaimer in charge so that it's specific on what's in store for orc players.

I can deal with that, but there's still a ton of problems with the Orc Sphere getting the Onasaki end of everything, and no, I will not shut up about that. We lost our best combatant because the admins give OP armor to elves. Which shouldn't even be in play to begin with.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:48 pm
by Icarus
I believe there was a public apology for that last bit. But you're right. We hate orcs and spend our days plotting how to screw them over for the lulz. It's what makes us dedicate months of our lives to the game. Say it louder, bro! Never be silent about it.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:05 pm
by AdamBlue
Asinine, sarcastic comments aside, Icarus, a 'public apology' for something that shouldn't of happened in the first place with no manner of compensation whatsoever given is what happened.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:23 pm
by tehkory
AdamBlue wrote:Asinine, sarcastic comments aside, Icarus, a 'public apology' for something that shouldn't of happened in the first place with no manner of compensation whatsoever given is what happened.
Honestly, let's not put doubtful quotes around this 'public apology.' Because it was just that--a public apology. You're not a 'player' of this game, you're a player. You don't have 'characters,' you have characters. Let's call things what they are; the apology was issued more than once, by multiple Admins--note Admins, not 'Admins.' Because we aren't calling into doubt who and what they are, any more than what they did.

If you want compensation, well, often-times character death has been considered another time to review RPP besides the usual monthly review. Or--'review,' if it still happens. I'm not so sure it does? But still; let's pretend for a moment you're a -wronged- player, AdamBlue. Not a 'wronged' one, of course.

Suggest a compensation for what a player, 100% of the time, deserves when an Admin makes a mistake like this? What does every player, every time, deserve, since you're specifically asking for it right now?

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:30 pm
by Icarus
AdamBlue wrote:Asinine, sarcastic comments aside, Icarus, a 'public apology' for something that shouldn't of happened in the first place with no manner of compensation whatsoever given is what happened.
We offered you a special role with boosts, that you never replied to, after you asked for a complete clone of your character with equal skill and equipment.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:48 pm
by AdamBlue
tehkory wrote:
AdamBlue wrote:Asinine, sarcastic comments aside, Icarus, a 'public apology' for something that shouldn't of happened in the first place with no manner of compensation whatsoever given is what happened.
Honestly, let's not put doubtful quotes around this 'public apology.' Because it was just that--a public apology. You're not a 'player' of this game, you're a player. You don't have 'characters,' you have characters. Let's call things what they are; the apology was issued more than once, by multiple Admins--note Admins, not 'Admins.' Because we aren't calling into doubt who and what they are, any more than what they did.

If you want compensation, well, often-times character death has been considered another time to review RPP besides the usual monthly review. Or--'review,' if it still happens. I'm not so sure it does? But still; let's pretend for a moment you're a -wronged- player, AdamBlue. Not a 'wronged' one, of course.

Suggest a compensation for what a player, 100% of the time, deserves when an Admin makes a mistake like this? What does every player, every time, deserve, since you're specifically asking for it right now?
Allow me to address this one point at a time.
A 'public apology' does not bring doubt that the apology was sincere nor heartfelt, and insists that it is exactly what it is said to be. An apology.
However, grievances of the nature that interfere with the quality of the game for players, note I am saying players with an s, and while giving the player a suitable kindness would suit it, the role of the character was more devoted to the clan, and the role played. The character in question killed was a clan leader, and as such happening there is no suitable replacement for said character, at least in the immediate near future as it took many months to get that character to it's profession, skill level, and political and economic power, to the point where it benefited the clan as a whole on various levels.

The death itself was bad, and it was bugged, and it was terrible. However, a better question would be to ask -why- it happened in the first place? This can also be led back to the lack of attention or reason or rhyme to exist.

Many people would jump on the wagon of justification that they are more right because of the actions that happened previous to it. While the fight would of been drastically different given the correct settings of what happened, why did it happen?

Because the clan leader was attempting to lead their clan, in the only way they could of kept it interesting to the players at the moment to prevent them from leaving the game out of sheer boredom due to lack of purpose entire. Doing their job to the best of their ability to provide interest in the game for roles that would otherwise grow stagnant.

The further actions after the first engagement are shameful, and while there have been similar mistakes shown in the past, even by the one slain, there was a much larger room to prevent error that was not given.



Nonetheless, I suppose it isn't my place. Perhaps I am not counted as a player anymore, as I do not play anymore because of the events transpired which has risen the ire of so many players who either resign to nothing or scream their ire fruitlessly at powerful pointing fingers who insist they have done nothing wrong.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:48 pm
by AdamBlue
Icarus wrote:
AdamBlue wrote:Asinine, sarcastic comments aside, Icarus, a 'public apology' for something that shouldn't of happened in the first place with no manner of compensation whatsoever given is what happened.
We offered you a special role with boosts, that you never replied to, after you asked for a complete clone of your character with equal skill and equipment.
That is not true, you never offered anything.

Edit: Furthermore, I find that this is no longer a proper place of discussion for this, and I request that it be moved to PM's or tickets.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:03 pm
by Icarus
Indeed, I'll PM you the ticket number that contains the offer.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:13 pm
by tehkory
http://www.middle-earth.us/forums/viewt ... 152#p25942
The public apology itself, which is the exact opposite of 'insisting they've done nothing wrong.' Note how that's in quotes, because I'm calling into doubt your statement. I'm directly quoting you, too, but mostly I'm just saying you're wrong.

Apparently you also aren't reading the forums, where 'why this happened' and 'how can we fix it' has been the topic of multiple threads. You're just displaying a shocking level of ignorance in the topic matter, which, again, is embarassing, and therefor perfectly on topic. See the following:
http://www.middle-earth.us/forums/viewt ... f=2&t=2148
http://www.middle-earth.us/forums/viewt ... f=2&t=2153
http://www.middle-earth.us/forums/viewt ... f=2&t=2167

A mistake happened, people learned, and the PC that caused it? It's no longer in existence. You lost your PC; so did the Elf. There's no need to explain the righteousness of your cause, how the Union of Orcish Players is on your side, etc., etc. Realize the facts, get to the point, and then...again, I ask you: what EXACTLY do you want done?

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:33 pm
by AdamBlue
TehKory, I'm not going to respond to you properly until you take it to PM's instead of making a personal attack on me here. That's petty. The conversation is over here.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:28 pm
by Icarus
Let's move things back on topic as to newbies and the orc sphere.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:01 pm
by Knight26
There are already Elves in SOI3? I thought this was still in beta...

Blink. People can't help themselves!

:lol:

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:12 pm
by Nimrod
Orcs aren't going away. They're not going to cost RPP. We're not going to a single sphere.

Many of you seem to think I'm asking for orcs to be nicer. That's not the case. I'm asking some players to stop being jerky players. It's that simple. Sure, there are times for a beat-down, but my initial post was not in response to a needed beat down.

The Vadok Clan IS the newbie clan. Newbies should be able to come in and play. If they're not following the rules then EDUCATE them, don't ruin the game for them.

If you want your own hardcore clan where you can feel above working with newbies, then by all means, apply to create your own clan and beat on one another as much as you like.

Re: Embarrassing

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:49 am
by Onasaki
You know what's embarrassing? What's REALLY really embarrassing?

This whole discussion, on being nice to newbies, we try it, and it still ends the same. Logs have been made and sent. That's all I'm leaving it at.